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Author Topic: Former Iraqi General: WMD moved to Syria
First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
Hey, didja hear the one about the flushed Koran?

Hey, didja see the photographs of the naked men?

First, I'm sorry to have to say this, but you are being a bit of a jerk here. The Abu Ghraib incidents have been established "beyond a reasonable doubt," and resulted in the courts-martial and imprisonment of U.S. military personnel.

Nothing you've posted here on this issue of WMD and Syria comes even close.

Silas

*Tosses Silas a World Atlas*

Abu Ghraib is in Iraq.

Gitmo is in CUBA.

I said Gitmo. That's where the "flushed Koran" rumor came from. They are not the same stories.

BTW, here's still more substantiation, this time in the New York Times, of all places.
Spy Agency Chief Suggests Iraqis Shipped Out Weapons

And David Kay, Head of ISG, as quoted in the Telegraph:

Saddam's WMD hidden in Syria, says Iraq survey chief

Not to mention Ariel Sharon and Israeli Intelligence.

Like I said, multiple sources. Not one or two lone nutballs.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
Spy Agency Chief Suggests Iraqis Shipped Out Weapons

I think we went over this the first time a couple years ago.

ETA: Last year, when Report Finds No Evidence Syria Hid Iraqi Arms was published.

quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
Ariel Sharon and Israeli Intelligence.

You cited an Israeli... tell me, how much does Israel stand to gain from an invasion of Syria?

--------------------
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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
Spy Agency Chief Suggests Iraqis Shipped Out Weapons

I think we went over this the first time a couple years ago.
As a single datum, it was largely ignored. As part of a larger set of information, it should perhaps be revisited.

quote:

ETA: Last year, when Report Finds No Evidence Syria Hid Iraqi Arms was published.

No proof, actually, mostly since gathering such proof was beyond their abilities. Which is also why they were "unable to rule out unofficial movement of limited WMD-related materials."

quote:
But Iraqi officials whom the group was able to interview "uniformly denied any knowledge of residual WMD that could have been secreted to Syria," the report said
That's almost kinda funny.

quote:

You cited an Israeli... tell me, how much does Israel stand to gain from an invasion of Syria?

Now, that's an interesting accusation as well... almost NoWarForIsrael.com-ish.

Probably very little, actually, aside from a strengthened bunch of terrorists, if I accept the whole "invasion breeds terrorists" theory.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Mr. Billion
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Time to invade Syria.

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"For the U.S. to get involved militarily in determining the outcome of the struggle over who's going to govern Iraq strikes me as a classic definition of a quagmire." ~Dick Cheney.

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Bug Muldoon
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quote:
BTW, here's still more substantiation, this time in the New York Times, of all places.
Spy Agency Chief Suggests Iraqis Shipped Out Weapons

quote:
Published: October 28, 2003
quote:
satellite intelligence showing a heavy flow of traffic from Iraq into Syria just before the American-led invasion in March had led him to conclude "unquestionably" that illicit weapons material was moved outside of Iraq.
No evidence of WMD being transported. No actual intelligence shown.

quote:
General Clapper, speaking at a breakfast with reporters, said he was providing a personal assessment.
quote:
And David Kay, Head of ISG, as quoted in the Telegraph:

Saddam's WMD hidden in Syria, says Iraq survey chief

quote:
"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," he said. "But we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programme.
Again, no evidence.

quote:
Not to mention Ariel Sharon and Israeli Intelligence.

quote:
Jerusalem - Iraqi chemical and biological weapons may be hidden in Syria, a senior Israeli intelligence officer told a parliamentary committee here on Monday, Israeli public radio said.
They may also be hidden in Saddam's secret underwater lair.


Now, First, is there aything substantial, verifyable, anything that might somewhat meet most people's definition of "evidence" ? Because all you've posted so far is speculation and hearsay.

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
Now, First, is there aything substantial, verifyable, anything that might somewhat meet most people's definition of "evidence" ? Because all you've posted so far is speculation and hearsay.

Well, bug, like I said, when certain people's definitions of "evidence" vary depending upon their agreement with a particular notion in the first place...

(hence my Koran flushing analogy, where the mere confrormation of the report of a single accusation -minus evidence- was enough to engender widespread belief in its veracity, as it did here.)

... it's a bit difficult to predict what their terribly inconsistent minds will condider "evidence" on a daily basis.

I suppose it all depends upon the level of your inductive reasoning.

I have an unproven theory which fits the known (although admittedly largely ihnored) facts, whereas I believe that your theory of unilateral destruction neither fits all the facts nor survives occam's razor.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
Now, First, is there aything substantial, verifyable, anything that might somewhat meet most people's definition of "evidence" ? Because all you've posted so far is speculation and hearsay.

Well, bug, like I said, when certain people's definitions of "evidence" vary depending upon their agreement with a particular notion in the first place...

(hence my Koran flushing analogy, where the mere confrormation of the report of a single accusation -minus evidence- was enough to engender widespread belief in its veracity, as it did here.)

Okay, you're not being a jerk. You are being something rather worse: a hypocrite on a witch-hunt for hypocrites.

Your comparison is flawed; because we *do* have evidence, from Abu Ghraib, that the U.S. Army was mistreating prisoners, it makes *more sense* to believe that it was happening other places. You do *not* have anything to compare this to when it comes to WMD moved to Syria.

You're being hypocritical here, because, of all the souls on snopes, you are the single worst offender when it comes to accepting data without closer examination solely because it supports your extant beliefs. Not even Troberg (second worst offender) matches you in this.

Dude, wake up and smell the semtex: this guy doesn't have any credibility for what he is saying. And your comparisons are inane.

Silas ("And while we're on the subject, you're a rotten cook as well.")

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
Okay, you're not being a jerk. You are being something rather worse: a hypocrite on a witch-hunt for hypocrites.

Your comparison is flawed; because we *do* have evidence, from Abu Ghraib, that the U.S. Army was mistreating prisoners, it makes *more sense* to believe that it was happening other places. You do *not* have anything to compare this to when it comes to WMD moved to Syria.

THAT'S your criterion? That if it happened somewhere, the thought of it happening elsewhere is much more acceptable?

Good job... except, of course, that I have that, too. The testimony of a man whose job was to do just that sort of job. Make WMD and WMD programs disappear. And who did it once before already.

I also have, as substantiating evidence, the undisputed fact that the Hussein administration is KNOWN to have systematically and thoroughly engaged in attempts, successful and not, to conceal the truth about its weapons.

It is undisputed, even by the inspectors, that Iraq's several separate "Full complete and final" declarations" regarding their weapons were utter rubbish.

It is undisputed that Hussein delivered certain weapons (his air force, mostly) into other countries (Iran, his "mortal enemy" mostly) rather than have them destroyed or captured by allied forces in 1991.

In brief, we have evidence for the components, (hiding weapons in other countries, quick-removal weapons, Husseinian deception, and multiple independent accounts - and yes, "judgement calls" by experts) which creates evidence for the complete theory...

In exactly the same way that the fact that we can combine the evidence for the components of evolution (mutation, natural selection, mircroevolution) take place, even if we can't point to a macroevolutionary change, to demonstrate the fact of evolution.

Stop playing a game of selective standards. 1+1 STILL equals 2, and logically suggests the existence of 3, even if someone who doesn't despise George Bush says so.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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I ask again, First. If we assume you're right, then how does this in any way make the invasion a good thing?

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Archangel
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On the contrary, what you have are several items of what loosely may be called evidence, which taken together are reasonably explained by any number of hypotheses. So, the best case for Syria relies on a loose patterning of what is no more than circumstancial evidence.

This in not analogous with the evidence surrounding biology, which can to date can only be reconciled with the theory of evolution.

Conversely, the direct and material evidence is that no WMD were produced, transported of possessed during the relevant time frames. That's a hard rap to beat and what's presented here doesn't do it.

Thing is it's proponents can't even argue they were duped, because what has shown to be true was in their face from Day 1. Instead, they took an active and knowing part in the deception taking place.

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
I ask again, First. If we assume you're right, then how does this in any way make the invasion a good thing?

Well most importantly, they mean I'm right. That always trumps everything else. [Wink]

Secondly, it means that Bush was right, and all those "Bush lied" people (and all those "there weren't any WMD" people) were wrong. If that were so, then this would strengthen the Republican position tremendously - and weaken the Democrats, except for those few who stayed correct - like Lieberman. The Far Left would be dealt a severe blow (as would, coincidentally, the isolationist elements of the Far Right... it must be terribly galling to agree with David Duke.) Which of course, from my POV, is a good thing.

Moreover, it STILL means increased democracy in Iraq, STILL removes a dictator, his family, and his party from power, STILL influences other regional democracy movements, STILL provides a beachhead and staging area for future operations, STILL brackets Iran between emerging democracies... at the risk of yet another WWII analogy, it accomplishes much of what liberating France accomplished.

And so far, it hasn't helped the Syrians any. They've lost considerable influence over Lebanon. And they already had their own stocks of WMD, so it's not like adding to their stockpiles is going to significantly alter the balance of power.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Archangel:
taken together are reasonably explained by any number of hypotheses.

And yet nobody's come up with anything better than "he's writing a book" or "he just hates them" Strangely, this explanation is never acceptable when applied in the other direction. It is therefore bunk. You've got nothing.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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Do we have any corroboration? Do we have the names of other officers, who might be available for questioning, who were in charge of these weapons? Do we even have the names of the people in charge of packing them up and loading them on trucks?

And why did this guy wait so long to come forward? "Combat operations" have been over for a while; why now?

To me, it's too much like the Hitler Diaries. (And, yes, as a matter of fact, I am dubious about the newly-discovered Hitler watercolors. They may be real...but I'll wait for more actual evidence.)

In any case, I still say that you are leaping to a conclusion far too early, and with infinitely more vigor than you would if the exact same General had published a book saying that there never had been any WMDs. Had that book come out, you would be sneering at any of us for taking it seriously.

And *that's* your sin: you have *dramatically* different standards of evidence, based almost entirely on your own personal agreement or disagreement.

Again, within the "Sparkhammer Protocols," I think that is true of everyone, to some degree. Obviously, I will be more receptive to research that supports my private beliefs than to research that contradicts it. But that approach, if followed too closely, precludes learning.

So: which sort of person are you? One who wants to know? Or one who wants to learn?

Silas

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Archangel
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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:
Originally posted by Archangel:
taken together are reasonably explained by any number of hypotheses.

And yet nobody's come up with anything better than "he's writing a book" or "he just hates them" Strangely, this explanation is never acceptable when applied in the other direction. It is therefore bunk. You've got nothing.
The most likely hypothesis regarding WMD is that the 'evidence' you cite is not relevant to that question. Each individual item is rationally explained without any reference to the question of WMD production/storage/movement.

The theory you cite is analogous to a reading of the sacrificial entrails.

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Ana Ng
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Can I hijack this thread briefly to ask a question? Does anyone remember a long-ish video circulating about 9/11, a conspiracy one? I can't find it and I don't know how to look more efficiently.

Anyone?

Ana

--------------------
My great grandfather planted that tree!

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
Do we have any corroboration? Do we have the names of other officers, who might be available for questioning, who were in charge of these weapons? Do we even have the names of the people in charge of packing them up and loading them on trucks?

Some of them, yes. The Syrian ones, according to the Syrian journalist:

"General Zoul-Himla Chalich and the son of his brother Assef, who works at Al-Bachaer company."

and "The weapons were evacuated by the means of ambulances. Mohammed Mansoura also took part in the operation."

Not only that, but he names specific places.

Unfortunately, it may prove to be impossible to interrogate these people or search these places. Not without "being mean" to Syria, anyway.

We probably can't find most of the individuals on the Iraqi side, because if they're Hussein loyalists they've probably either died, joined the insurgency, fled or gone to ground. The head of the operation is said to have been "Chemical Ali." What ever happened to him?

It is also undisputed that Syria was heavily involved in heling Iraq evade the UN sanctions, including illegal oil exports.

The Duelfer report, as pointed out above, does NOT make any firm conclusions either way. It admits quite openly that it was not able to make a complete investigation of the charges.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" -- Carl Sagan

quote:

So: which sort of person are you? One who wants to know? Or one who wants to learn?

It remains dubious to insist on the highest standards of proof for a connection which would have been deliberately intended to be shadowy and tenuous in the first place.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:

So: which sort of person are you? One who wants to know? Or one who wants to learn?

It remains dubious to insist on the highest standards of proof for a connection which would have been deliberately intended to be shadowy and tenuous in the first place.
It would be really nice if, for once, you used the *same* standards of proof for sources that disfavor Bush as you use for those that favor him. Coming within half an order of magnitude would be fine.

Not charging us with hypocrisy would also be a welcome relief.

Silas

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
Secondly, it means that Bush was right, and all those "Bush lied" people (and all those "there weren't any WMD" people) were wrong. If that were so, then this would strengthen the Republican position tremendously - and weaken the Democrats, except for those few who stayed correct - like Lieberman. The Far Left would be dealt a severe blow (as would, coincidentally, the isolationist elements of the Far Right... it must be terribly galling to agree with David Duke.) Which of course, from my POV, is a good thing.

I'm not sure how you're defining "Far Left" here, but there were certainly many of us on the board, and many in the intelligence services (It's half two in the morning here, I'll look up sources if you want me to tomorrow. I'm sure I remember as much from the Butler Enquiry) who said that an invasion would only push any potential weapons into hands more hostile than Saddams, whereas they were effectively contained where they were before the invasion. And this was said before the invasion. It was the Right that didn't consider this possibility and who neglected to mention this intelligence when presenting their case.

The rest of your post has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread at hand.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Ana Ng:
Can I hijack this thread briefly to ask a question? Does anyone remember a long-ish video circulating about 9/11, a conspiracy one? I can't find it and I don't know how to look more efficiently.

Try searching on "hunt the boeing" in Google or the sites listed in 9/11 Conspiracy Theories.

--------------------
All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

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Jason Threadslayer
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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
Now, that's an interesting accusation as well...

Thought you'd like it. [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
almost NoWarForIsrael.com-ish.

Interesting site... I wonder if they're the protesters I encountered at the San Francisco anti-war protests. Found this article (from Haaretz!): Israel to U.S.: Now deal with Syria and Iran

--------------------
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Felessan
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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:
Originally posted by Archangel:
taken together are reasonably explained by any number of hypotheses.

And yet nobody's come up with anything better than "he's writing a book" or "he just hates them" Strangely, this explanation is never acceptable when applied in the other direction. It is therefore bunk. You've got nothing.
First, you've got it backwards. It's not up to the sceptics in this case to prove the charges false, it's up to the one making the claims (George Sada) to prove his case. Sada, whether or not he is telling the truth, and whether or not he is correct or mistaken, has not provided or cannot provide that evidence (the claimed corroboration from David Kay and Ariel Sharon is inconclusive at best; the Israelis stated only "It is possible Iraq transferred missiles and weapons of mass destruction into Syria").

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You fool! That's not a warrior, that's a banana!
- a surreal moment in a role-playing game

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Felessan
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Totally unexpected waffles

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You fool! That's not a warrior, that's a banana!
- a surreal moment in a role-playing game

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Ana Ng
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:
Originally posted by Ana Ng:
Can I hijack this thread briefly to ask a question? Does anyone remember a long-ish video circulating about 9/11, a conspiracy one? I can't find it and I don't know how to look more efficiently.

Try searching on "hunt the boeing" in Google or the sites listed in 9/11 Conspiracy Theories.
That wikipedia page was what reminded me in the first place!

Thanks to the "hunt the boeing" term, though, I think I found it.

Is this it?

Thanks again.

Ana

--------------------
My great grandfather planted that tree!

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Honey Bunching Oats
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by Honeybunching Oats:
First of all "WMD": That was a phrase coined by the W administration to lump together biological, chemical and nuclear. The army used to use "NBC" for Nuclear, Biological, Chemical. Before that they used "ABC" for Atomic, Bio... It is a well known fact that Sadam's regieme had chemical weapons. The US supplied him with them in the 80's to fight Iran.

You were doing so well until that last sentence, which, I fear, indicates you have been taking biased non-mainstream media at face value. Isn't it enough ammo for your case that the US continued to give non-WMD aid to Saddam even after we found he had been using gas? Why sully your case with these anti-American lies?
Mea Culpa Mea maxima culpa. I violated the spirit of Snopesdom by stating as fact something that is unsubstantiated. I think I remember a stand-up comedian joking that Bush knows Sadam has chemical weapons because his Father gave them to him.

This is how false statements get passed on as true. I should have been more careful. Obviously the US would never overtly sell chemical weapons to Iraq, even when we were sending aid in the 80's to help them fight Iran. George H.W. Bush was Vice President then. When GHW Bush was CIA director in the 70's the US was sending aid to the Shah of Iran. Sadam back then was more cozy with the Soviets. If the US ever gave chemical weapons covertly any documentation would be classified so any claims to such would be unsubstantiated.

I admit my mistake. I posted a reply without verifying the information in the post. False claims that ring with someone's political opinions tend to be accepted as truth. Liberals are guilty of this but so are conservatives. At least I didn't take the country to war based on unsubstatiated claims.

I'm not anti-american. Maybe I am because I didn't vote for Bush. I should be lined up against the wall and shot along with all other demo ni c rats. Even though I'm a registered republican, my first loyalty is to the planet Earth and the Human Race. When some of those who represent me on the world stage act as though the interests of 1/20th of the Earth's population outweigh those of the other 19/20ths my loyalties are conflisted. I'm not a blame america firster; I blame the america firsters.

"My country right or wrong. May she always be in the right and never be in the wrong." All lot of people forget the second line of that toast.

Honeybun "LIES! ALL LIES" chingoats

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"When we talk about democracy, if the people's stomach is empty, democracy is also empty. Democracy cannot be installed by fiat; it must be achieved by the people themselves." Y.C. James Yen (1893-1990)

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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The term Weapons of Mass Destruction predate W, by the way.

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All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
DesertRat
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I've been burned too many times with unvalidated, single sources human intelligence reporting. Factor in the profit motive, and I have a very healthy skepticism of this tale.

I'm not saying I DON'T believe Sada's tale-- it's more-or-less plausible. But I'd expect a significant degree of independent verification and fusion before I'd call this any kind of smoking gun or conclusive proof.

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High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler

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lazerus the duck
The First USA Noel


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Shouldn't this be under urban legends it is a clear FOAF.

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All the world's a face, And all the men and women merely acne.

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by lazerus the duck:
Shouldn't this be under urban legends it is a clear FOAF.

Or 'Petty Bickering.'

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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TwoGuyswithaHat
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:

Moreover, it STILL means increased democracy in Iraq, STILL removes a dictator, his family, and his party from power

While yes, those are some nice things, they weren't the primary objectives of the war. The primary objectives of the war were to find WMD's which the US government has admitted "oops, probably didn't exist."

The democracy angle of the war is perhaps some of the best spin produced to date, people seem to have forgotten the original intent of the war. People now speak of democracy as if that was the primary objective, but I believe this supports the manure theory. If you throw enough shit onto the ground, a flower will eventually grow.

What I find most interesting is that those who continually talk of democracy as the primary objective seem to ignore the fact that if that were the case, it smacks of imperialism. The whole notiong that one nation has to dictate to another nation as to what they think is best... er, you know what? That's exactly what that is, being Canadian we've been dicated to by the US plenty, we just choose not to listen.

quote:
STILL influences other regional democracy movements
It'll be interesting to see how the US government treats democracy when it elects interests that are directly in opposition to US interests.

quote:
STILL provides a beachhead and staging area for future operations
Woo hoo! More imperialism!

quote:
at the risk of yet another WWII analogy, it accomplishes much of what liberating France accomplished.
Well no, not at all. You see, when France was liberated, it was liberated from another foreign power that had invaded. To make this analogy correct, another nation will have to invade to kick out the US -- I'm not comparing the US to Nazi Germany, just showing the the flaws inherent with this comparison.

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In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Georges Sada

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All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by TwoGuyswithaHat:
It'll be interesting to see how the US government treats democracy when it elects interests that are directly in opposition to US interests.

One word: Hamas.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
quote:
Originally posted by TwoGuyswithaHat:
It'll be interesting to see how the US government treats democracy when it elects interests that are directly in opposition to US interests.

One word: Hamas.
Actually, that isn't so telling a point. We may not *like* the results of democracy...but are we going in and overthrowing it? The Allende coup was a long time ago...

Just because I respect the form of democracy doesn't mean I am required to like the results. Just as with free speech: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Silas

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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I wasn't saying that the US's reaction was a positive or a negative one. It's just that TwoGuys wanted to know what it would be like if there was a democracy elected that the US didn't agree with, and hey presto, there is.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
I wasn't saying that the US's reaction was a positive or a negative one. It's just that TwoGuys wanted to know what it would be like if there was a democracy elected that the US didn't agree with, and hey presto, there is.

So what's your point? We haven't given up respect for democracy, have we? TwoGuys asked how we would "treat democracy." That, we treat with admiration. The actual election results? We have every right to consider those to be unwise. (G.W. Bush, for instance, won in democratic elections, and I consider that to be one of the biggest blunders ever committed by the American populace.)

Silas

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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My point is that TwoGuys wondered what would happen in a certain set of circumstances, and I pointed out that he didn't have to, because those circumstances actually existed.

It's like if he'd have said "I wonder how the public would react to a remake of War Of The Worlds directed by Steven Speilberg", and I said "wonder no more, for there is and there was." It's no comment on the film or the hoopla surrounding it, merely pointing out that you don't have to bother with a hypothetical, because a real, concrete example exists.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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