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Author Topic: Iran's president says move Israel
Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
This difference is why I choose Jenin as an example and as a way to show the mentality of Annan in these issues. I do not equate the murder of thousands with the murder of hundreds of thousands, other than that both are despicable acts.

See: Why Europeans bought Jenin myth

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"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
He did exactly the same thing in both cases. At Jenin, the UN was invited by the Palestinian authorities to inspect and report the situation, but did nothing due to israeli pressure. Jenin is on the West Bank, so there is no reason to even ask for the israeli opinion. He could very well have acted here without overstepping his mandate. In fact, his mandate dictates that he should act.

This difference is why I choose Jenin as an example and as a way to show the mentality of Annan in these issues. I do not equate the murder of thousands with the murder of hundreds of thousands, other than that both are despicable acts.

The problem is, what the Palestinians told you was happening in Jenin wasn't what was happening in Jenin.

Jerusalem Post - Palestinians conform no massacre in Jenin.

quote:
Palestinian sources are now saying that their death toll in the 2002 IDF incursion into Jenin, was 52, at least 34 of whom were armed, contradicting earlier Palestinian claims that thousands had died, a study to be released next month says.

The study indicates for the first time that Palestinian terror organizations saw themselves as "armed combatants" and not as civilians who died in a deadly massacre. The study's significance is that it uses Palestinian sources to rebut the original Palestinian claims.

"The study directly contradicts the baseless charges made by PA leaders, including Saeb Erekat, that Israel had massacred 500 Palestinians in Jenin," said Dore Gold, director of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, which sponsored the study. "That blatant lie made its way from the screens of CNN to the UN Security Council."

quote:
In the months afterward, virtually all organizations investigating the massacre claims rejected the initial Palestinian assertions.

Israel was effectively cleared of the massacre charges in an August report by the United Nations. The report blasted armed Palestinians for operating inside civilian refugee camps and termed their methods "breaches of international law that have been and continue to be condemned by the United Nations."

Human Rights Watch said in January the IDF did not commit a massacre in Jenin during "Defensive Shield." The organization's official report echoed an initial assessment by a Human Rights Watch researcher as early as May 2002 rejecting massacre claims.

The new study, conducted by Jonathan D. HaLevi for the center used a wide and comprehensive variety of Palestinian written testimony and material recently published in Palestinian newspapers, books and web sites. It was , provided exclusively to the Jerusalem Post in advance of its wider release.

The 35-page study says Fatah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas prepared themselves with automatic weapons, grenades, anti-tank missiles and explosives, and perceived the confrontation with IDF troops as nothing less than a "military to military battle."

The study rebuts claims at the time by Palestinian Authorities that IDF forces were attacking civilians, and that the only Palestinians who died in the battle were unarmed Palestinian men, women and children.

Among other details, the study also reveals that Fatah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad established a joint military operations room in preparation for the battle. In addition the research indicates the three groups had created a joint bomb-making facility in Jenin that produced more than two tons of explosives.

The JCPA paper states civilians were intentionally used as human shields, and that both women and children were deployed by the three groups to divert IDF troops into ambushes and booby-trapped areas.

The Jenin Refugee Camp was prepared as a "reinforced fortress," where nearly 200 Palestinian terrorists had gathered for the battle, the research says.

"The myth of a massacre at Jenin was the 'crown jewel' of a sophisticated effort to delegitimatize the State of Israel," Gold said.



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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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That is total BS, and even if Jenin had been a fortress it wouldn't have mattered as it was on Palestinian territory, outside israeli jurisdiction. They are perfectly allowed to train troops on their own soil.

I recommend that you check the sources of those bogus reports.

I had a coworker at the time who had relatives in Jenin and lost several of them, so I think I have another view of the events. I've seen both before and after pictures, and it was no fortress, just an ordinary town. The after pictures were just a pile of rubble, the entire centre of the town was completely wiped out.

The modus operandi of the israeli is that the "settlers" snipes nearby villages. Eventually, somebody gets pissed of at this and returns fire, at which point the tanks are sent in to destroy as much as they think they can get away with.

I've lived in the region during a two year period, including the recent wave of violence. I still have nightmares about what the israelis are doing. Go there and check for yourself, then I will listen to your opinion. As long as it is based solely on slanted reporting, I do not see any reason to give it any credibility.

Oh, one more thing:

If the reports are correct and the israeli had nothing to hide, why did they fight tooth and nails to stop any international investigation? Surely, such an investigation would only have supported their actions, assuming they were telling truth?

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/Troberg

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I had a coworker at the time who had relatives in Jenin and lost several of them, so I think I have another view of the events.

Penalty for FOAF. 5 minutes in the box.

The source for the numbers above is from the UN Secretary General's own report, the relevant conclusions of which I will quite for you now:

quote:
Fifty-two Palestinian deaths had been confirmed by the hospital in Jenin by the end of May 2002. IDF also place the death toll at approximately 52. A senior Palestinian Authority official alleged in mid-April that some 500 were killed, a figure that has not been substantiated in the light of the evidence that has emerged.

quote:
Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin.

The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55. Of those, a number were civilians, four were women and two children. There were 23 Israeli fatalities in the fighting operations in Jenin.

The number of Palestinian fatalities could increase when the rubble is removed. Most observers share the certainty that there must be some bodies lying under the debris.

Nevertheless, the most recent estimates by UNRWA and ICRC show that the number of missing people is constantly declining as the IDF releases Palestinians from detention. In any case, a figure is very difficult to estimate. There are a number of reports about Palestinian civilians being used as human shields.

Now, if you want to call the UN a bunch of crooks and liars, that's your prerogative, but I'd say that your "thousands" line is what is complete and total BS, as NOBODY has claimed that number.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Oh, one more thing:

If the reports are correct and the israeli had nothing to hide, why did they fight tooth and nails to stop any international investigation? Surely, such an investigation would only have supported their actions, assuming they were telling truth?

Because the frickin' idiot "investigators" wanted to breach Israeli security to conduct their investigation. Israel didn't want to be responsible for investigators who got caught in the crossfire during the shootouts.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:

The point is that in Rwanda, there was no possibility for him to act in the short run. It was not within his mandate.

Really? He disagrees with you.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3573229.stm

"I believed at that time that I was doing my best," he said.

"But I realised after the genocide that there was more that I could and should have done to sound the alarm and rally support."

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:

The point is that in Rwanda, there was no possibility for him to act in the short run. It was not within his mandate.

Really? He disagrees with you.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3573229.stm

0 for 2!

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I recommend that you check the sources of those bogus reports.

What do you mean by that?

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All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I recommend that you check the sources of those bogus reports.

What do you mean by that?
He means that if an article about Palestinians appears in the Jerusalem Post, or is written by an Israeli, it must be a lie. 'Cuase those people all do that, you know. Plus they drain kids' blood.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I recommend that you check the sources of those bogus reports.

What do you mean by that?
I was curious about this myself. Apparently we are supposed to dismiss groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, who put the number of Palestinians killed in the dozens, and accept Troberg's unverified claim that the number is in the thousands.

When making claims for such a number, it would be helpful to provide a link rather than merely dismissing other sources as bogus.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Penalty for FOAF. 5 minutes in the box.
You cut out the following sentence, which makes it a bit more concrete.

quote:
The source for the numbers above is from the UN Secretary General's own report
Impressive that they managed to make a report without even visiting the site.

quote:
Now, if you want to call the UN a bunch of crooks and liars, that's your prerogative, but I'd say that your "thousands" line is what is complete and total BS, as NOBODY has claimed that number.
Sorry, I was unclear there. That number, just like the number I supplied for Rwanda, was for the entire conflict, not for a single incident.

quote:
Because the frickin' idiot "investigators" wanted to breach Israeli security to conduct their investigation. Israel didn't want to be responsible for investigators who got caught in the crossfire during the shootouts.
How could they breach israel security without even being in israel? How could israel be responsible for visitors which are not even on their territory?

It is fair to assume that Palestinian authorities would provide security, probably combined with a UN escort.

quote:
He means that if an article about Palestinians appears in the Jerusalem Post, or is written by an Israeli, it must be a lie. 'Cuase those people all do that, you know. Plus they drain kids' blood.
No, I mean that it can not be trusted as it is from a biased source, a source that is widely different from both Palestinian sources an from the few international observers actually present.

Face it, you can not trust the media of a nation that considers itself at war.

quote:
I was curious about this myself. Apparently we are supposed to dismiss groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, who put the number of Palestinians killed in the dozens, and accept Troberg's unverified claim that the number is in the thousands.
See above. Also, the issue is not and has never been primarily about the numbers killed. The important issue is the question of the ligitimacy of the israeli actions. It would have been wrong even if no one was killed.

If we are to have a civilized world, we can't just gather the cowboys and ride out all guns blazing whenever we don't like something. There are rules and procedures for international conflict resolution.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
See above. Also, the issue is not and has never been primarily about the numbers killed. The important issue is the question of the ligitimacy of the israeli actions. It would have been wrong even if no one was killed.

Well, needless to say, the number of people killed in any military operation is fairly important. Especially when the question is whether the number is 50 or "thousands".
quote:


If we are to have a civilized world, we can't just gather the cowboys and ride out all guns blazing whenever we don't like something. There are rules and procedures for international conflict resolution.

Uh, ok. I can't really say I know who you're arguing with here. But the fact is you're making irresponsible statements on this board, and when you get questioned about them, you refuse to either back them up with evidence or admit your mistake. You simply change the subject, as you did above.
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:

quote:
He means that if an article about Palestinians appears in the Jerusalem Post, or is written by an Israeli, it must be a lie. 'Cuase those people all do that, you know. Plus they drain kids' blood.
No, I mean that it can not be trusted as it is from a biased source, a source that is widely different from both Palestinian sources an from the few international observers actually present.

1. I think it's probably fair to say that you've nailed your colours to the mast on this debate, that is to say you've very much decided the side you're on in this dispute. If you disagree, I point you to the whole Current Israeli-Palestinian Situation/Holocaust comparison you had going a few pages back, which is simply not a comparison that would be made by a disinterested observer.

2. You have not, to the best of my knowledge, verified any of the wild statements you've made regarding the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Which often, incidentally, differ from more accepted, verifiable accounts.

By your own rationale, aren't you a biased source who can't be trusted?

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Yes, I'm biased. It's impossible to not be once you have seen close up what is going on. It's very easy to sit on another continent and make moral judgements on an issue where the results of those judgements don't have an impact on you life, it's a completely different issue when it is close up and personal.

Have you ever been in a situation where someone has asked you a question and by just hearing the question you understand that you can't give an answer that the person will understand? He just lacks the background knowledge and insight needed to understand the answer. I feel this way now. As long as people begin with the basic assumption that Arabs=bad, israelis=good, no explanation will suffice.

quote:
You have not, to the best of my knowledge, verified any of the wild statements you've made regarding the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Which often, incidentally, differ from more accepted, verifiable accounts.
I've verified the ones I can remenber where I've seen them. In some cases, I've not managed to find that piece of information again. I read a lot on this issue, and some of this info is five years / eight computers old, so I don't have the links.

Also, why does people automatically assume that israeli and israeli allied reports are accurate while Arab reports can not be trusted? Study both, study independent reports, go there yourself and then form an opinion.

quote:
I point you to the whole Current Israeli-Palestinian Situation/Holocaust comparison you had going a few pages back, which is simply not a comparison that would be made by a disinterested observer.
Read my post again. I never compared it with the holocaust, I compared the situatoin of the Palestinians with the situation of the Jews in nazi Germany around the time the ghettos where created. It's a big difference, and my comparison is accurate.

quote:
Uh, ok. I can't really say I know who you're arguing with here. But the fact is you're making irresponsible statements on this board, and when you get questioned about them, you refuse to either back them up with evidence or admit your mistake. You simply change the subject, as you did above.
I don't see that as a change of subject. Systematic killings is wrong and uncivilized and unlawful, regardless of numbers. Whatever way you twist it, israel is getting away with atrocities no other nation would get away with. The whole thing of answering a few individuals who perfoms acts of civilian agression with military attacks against another nation targeting the civilian population shows a horrible lack of sense of proportions.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
I've verified the ones I can remenber where I've seen them. In some cases, I've not managed to find that piece of information again. I read a lot on this issue, and some of this info is five years / eight computers old, so I don't have the links.

Also, why does people automatically assume that israeli and israeli allied reports are accurate while Arab reports can not be trusted? Study both, study independent reports, go there yourself and then form an opinion.

Okay, I'm going to try and explain this as simply as I can. If you are making an assertion (for example that thousands of Palestinians were killed in a massacre at Jenin, or indeed that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is more egregious than the Rwandan genocide) the onus is on you to verify it, not on us to disprove it. If you keep posting unsupported, unsupportable allegations without any kind of corroboration, then when challenged say something along the lines of "that's not what's important, anyway," then you end up getting a reputation round here.

To get even more blunt and to the point, it's not that there's a default position to believe the Israelis; it's that there's maybe a default position to disbelieve you. Certainly, not to take you seriously.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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Here is Human Rights Watch's report on the Jenin operation.

The truth, as usual, is somewhere between the two extremes represented here.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
As long as people begin with the basic assumption that Arabs=bad, israelis=good, no explanation will suffice.

From what I can see, you start with the opposite assumption: Israelis = bad, Arabs (actually Palestineans) = good.

--------------------
Ad astra per asparagus.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Here is Human Rights Watch's report on the Jenin operation.

The truth, as usual, is somewhere between the two extremes represented here.

Which is why no one should make up their mind based on any single news story. Listen to a BUNCH of stories, and realize the truth has to be in the middle somewhere.

Art Buchwald famously spoofed this in the 1967 Arab Israeli War, when he suggested that the U.S. had promised to replace any Israeli aircraft that were shot down. Immediately (in Buchwald's humorous essay, not in reality!) Arab news sources began saying, "None! We failed to shoot down a single Israeli aircraft!" and the Israeli news sources began saying, "Fifty! They shot down fifty of our airplanes!"

The two sides are still playing the same sick, bitter, twisted, and ugly game when it comes to civilian casualties.

Silas

Edited to insert clarifying parenthesis.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
If you are making an assertion (for example that thousands of Palestinians were killed in a massacre at Jenin, or indeed that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is more egregious than the Rwandan genocide
As I said, both my numbers were for the entire conflicts, not for specific operations. I doubt that hundreds of thousands were killed in any single operation in Rwanda either. More people was killed in Rwanda, but the Palestine issue is an ongoing conflict, and it will probably cost more lives in the long run.

quote:
From what I can see, you start with the opposite assumption: Israelis = bad, Arabs (actually Palestineans) = good.
In this case, yes, that is my experience.

quote:
The two sides are still playing the same sick, bitter, twisted, and ugly game when it comes to civilian casualties.
But there is one huge difference. On one side, the casualties are caused by civilians acting on their own without government support, on the other side, it is government sanctioned military actions. One is a matter for the police, the other is an act of war.

I spent a couple of hours trying to dig up the quotes I was remembering, but it seems that the newspapers I read them in don't have such a long retention on their sites. I'll see if I can find another source.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Archangel
Spider Cider


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Here is Human Rights Watch's report on the Jenin operation.

The truth, as usual, is somewhere between the two extremes represented here.

HRW's report is not extreme. It is balanced and considerate. It is confronting to the American reader because material that is not laudatory of Israel is generally not reported in the US. Consequently HRW's report, while professional and evenhanded, is outside the curve of normal American readership and opinion.
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Archangel:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Here is Human Rights Watch's report on the Jenin operation.

The truth, as usual, is somewhere between the two extremes represented here.

HRW's report is not extreme. It is balanced and considerate. It is confronting to the American reader because material that is not laudatory of Israel is generally not reported in the US. Consequently HRW's report, while professional and evenhanded, is outside the curve of normal American readership and opinion.
I think AnglRdr meant 'the two extremes represented here' as in 'the two extremes represented in this discussion on Snopes' rather than 'the two extremes represented here' as in 'the two extremes represented in this report I'm producing.'

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
If you are making an assertion (for example that thousands of Palestinians were killed in a massacre at Jenin, or indeed that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is more egregious than the Rwandan genocide
As I said, both my numbers were for the entire conflicts, not for specific operations. I doubt that hundreds of thousands were killed in any single operation in Rwanda either. More people was killed in Rwanda, but the Palestine issue is an ongoing conflict, and it will probably cost more lives in the long run.



Wikipedia's figures on deaths in the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Wikipedia on the Rwandan genocide.

For your assertion, that the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict will ultimately cost more lives than the Rwandan genocide, to be true, the current unrest in the Middle East would have to continue at its current level for something like three thousand years.

Can you not just accept that it was a very bad comparison?

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg
Originally posted by Senior, although I had to go and check.
quote:
From what I can see, you start with the opposite assumption: Israelis = bad, Arabs (actually Palestineans) = good.
In this case, yes, that is my experience.


In which case? In the case of whether or not Israel should exist?

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg
Originally posted by Silas, I discover
quote:
The two sides are still playing the same sick, bitter, twisted, and ugly game when it comes to civilian casualties.
But there is one huge difference. On one side, the casualties are caused by civilians acting on their own without government support, on the other side, it is government sanctioned military actions. One is a matter for the police, the other is an act of war.


I do not believe that the Palestinians agree with you. Like any armed resistance organisation, they consider themselves very much an army. Hamas are responsive in many ways to their local communities, have a clear hierarchical structure of command (albeit short-lived thanks to Israeli efforts), and can claim a fairly significant mandate. Why should they not be judged on the same criteria?


quote:
I spent a couple of hours trying to dig up the quotes I was remembering, but it seems that the newspapers I read them in don't have such a long retention on their sites. I'll see if I can find another source.
I don't know what quotes you're referring to. I just want evidence for anything you're saying.

Why don't you regroup and remember what it is you came into the discussion saying, that you thought it was a good idea for Israel to be moved.

Now, that's quite clearly bonkers, so you can't expect people not to challenge you. When challenged, you've just gone on and on posting unsupported statements, doing that thing you do where you reply to more than one poster in the same post without attributing them, so when you read the responses your reaction is "What? When did I say that?" which bugs me no end let me tell you. Then, when people say "What? That isn't true!" to your increasingly erratic responses, you change the subject, and say something like, "But you're missing the important thing! Israel is bad, like the Nazis, oh yes."

I am becoming increasingly peeved, I must say.

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara:
quote:
Originally posted by Archangel:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Here is Human Rights Watch's report on the Jenin operation.

The truth, as usual, is somewhere between the two extremes represented here.

HRW's report is not extreme. It is balanced and considerate. It is confronting to the American reader because material that is not laudatory of Israel is generally not reported in the US. Consequently HRW's report, while professional and evenhanded, is outside the curve of normal American readership and opinion.
I think AnglRdr meant 'the two extremes represented here' as in 'the two extremes represented in this discussion on Snopes' rather than 'the two extremes represented here' as in 'the two extremes represented in this report I'm producing.'
Yeah, sorry, Dara's right. I meant the two sides discussing the issue here on snopes.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
For your assertion, that the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict will ultimately cost more lives than the Rwandan genocide, to be true, the current unrest in the Middle East would have to continue at its current level for something like three thousand years.
Did you count the recent escalation into those numbers? Such things make a huge difference.

quote:
In which case? In the case of whether or not Israel should exist?
In the Arab-israeli conflict as a whole.

quote:
I do not believe that the Palestinians agree with you. Like any armed resistance organisation, they consider themselves very much an army. Hamas are responsive in many ways to their local communities, have a clear hierarchical structure of command (albeit short-lived thanks to Israeli efforts), and can claim a fairly significant mandate. Why should they not be judged on the same criteria?
Because they are not recognized by the Palestinian government as part of the Palestinian army. It's much the same situation with the IRA in recent years. They have a strong armed organization, but not the recognition as an official part of a national army from the government.

quote:
Why don't you regroup and remember what it is you came into the discussion saying, that you thought it was a good idea for Israel to be moved.

Now, that's quite clearly bonkers, so you can't expect people not to challenge you.

More bonkers than displacing Palestinians to form israel in the first place? That is actually the only question that needs to be answered. If it was more right to do that, they should remain, if it was a bad decision, they should move.

quote:
doing that thing you do where you reply to more than one poster in the same post without attributing them
Sorry, will stop doing that. A bad habit I've picked up since all other forums I frequent are threaded.

quote:
Then, when people say "What? That isn't true!" to your increasingly erratic responses, you change the subject, and say something like, "But you're missing the important thing!(snip)
Sometimes people don't understand when they are missing the point or attacking the wrong argument. I don't defend straw men, I try to stick with my point.

But, one of my best sources, although with only one week retention, is Jordan Times at http://www.jordantimes.com. Yes, it is somewhat biased, but not more so than the average western media. Their facts are usually solid, but the rhetorics may have a bias, but it is always moderate, never fanatical. I recommend you check it out once in a while.

One may also read about the beloved leader (at least one must assumed that since he was voted for prime minister twice) of the israeli people, Ariel Sharon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Sharon

Ariel Sharon is the nice and sensible man who said the following:

"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian childs existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do."
- Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956.

There seems to be some dispute about the origins of that quote, but I've seen it in so many different situations, including ordinarily pro-israel publications, so I think it holds water. Ariel Sharon is a man I find truly scary, in fact, I consider him (my personal humble assesment) a much larger threat against world peace than a footnote like Osama bin Laden will ever even hope to be.

The fact that he leads a nation that's (according to most international specialists, including Svenska Freds, Natural Resources Defense Council and the Federation of American Scientists) among the top five nations in terms of nuclear firepower does not make me feel safer. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_nuclear_weapons)

One can also see how israel treats even its own people, the most disgusting case being Mordechai Vanunu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu) who spent 11 years in solitary confinement. This also shows a blatant disregard for other countries sovereignity and laws, in this case the illegal kidnapping of Vanunu on Italian territory. There is no way they can honestly call Italy a serious threat to israeli security.

Other attemts at destabilizing the region can be seen in the assassination of Gerald Bull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull), a Canadian citizen and top scientist of the Iraqi space program.

Also, from personal experience, I can say that the view of the conflict as a religious conflict is pure BS. It is a question of territory, selfgovernment and human rights. The fact that the cut between the groups mostly cuts along a religious divide is a mere coincidence (much like, I believe, the Ireland conflict). The Moslems I know see Judaism as Islam 1.0, Christianism as Islam 2.0 and Islam as 3.0. They see a clear heritage, with the same god who gradually has cleared up misunderatandings and adjusted the religion to changing conditions. Even the Chritians Arabs I know have the same view, although they don't really agree with everything in the 3.0 version.

One person in particular summed it up nicely. He was going to Sweden during the project for a short visit (some weeks). He was one of the more religious of the local staff I worked with. I asked him, somewhat in a lighthearted jest (I knew him quite well, so I knew he would not be offended, otherwise I would not ask such a question as it might be seen as disrespectful) where he was going to pray in Sweden, as we have only a few mosques. He looked surprised at me, and said, as if stating something completely obvious: "In a church. Why not? It's a house of God, we are all people of the book.". To him, the Christians were at most a bit confused, but still basically along the right path, so praying in a church was a most natural thing. For him, looking for similarities was far more important than looking for differences, and in my experience, this is a quite typical attitude. Once one understands this, the entire conflict is seen in a different light.

Edit: Fixed misspelled UBB tag.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
More bonkers than displacing Palestinians to form israel in the first place? That is actually the only question that needs to be answered. If it was more right to do that, they should remain, if it was a bad decision, they should move.

The USA, without question, came into being by stealing land from the native Americans. Should we give it back?

You're presenting an imaginative fantasy, of the "two wrongs" variety. The genie can't be put back in the bottle.

A "two states" solution is the only one that has any possible future. The only question is that of drawing borders.

Silas

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
More bonkers than displacing Palestinians to form israel in the first place? That is actually the only question that needs to be answered. If it was more right to do that, they should remain, if it was a bad decision, they should move.

The USA, without question, came into being by stealing land from the native Americans.

In the 250+ years between the two, something should have been learned by society, don't you think?

quote:
Should we give it back?

It is too late for that, but owning up to what happened would be a good start. In both cases.

quote:
You're presenting an imaginative fantasy, of the "two wrongs" variety. The genie can't be put back in the bottle.

A "two states" solution is the only one that has any possible future. The only question is that of drawing borders.

Silas

I would imagine that Troberg isn't proposing undoing what has been done, but acknowledging it. Once such acknowledgement is made, it could go a long way toward recognizing the humanity of the Palestinians.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
The Moslems I know see Judaism as Islam 1.0, Christianism as Islam 2.0 and Islam as 3.0.

Umm, Islam sees itself as 1.0 and Judaism and Christianity as corruptions of itself.

--------------------
All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
The Moslems I know see Judaism as Islam 1.0, Christianism as Islam 2.0 and Islam as 3.0.

Umm, Islam sees itself as 1.0 and Judaism and Christianity as corruptions of itself.
Nope, Troberg was right on that one. Judaism came first. Christianity sees Judaism as 1.0 and itself as 2.0. Islam sees itself as the proper spiritual heir and successor.

What's vaguely interesting is that Judaism and Islam can co-exist theologically, but neither of the two can be consistent with Christianity. I could make a metaphor having to do with blood types, but that wouldn't be kosher...

Silas

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
I would imagine that Troberg isn't proposing undoing what has been done, but acknowledging it. Once such acknowledgement is made, it could go a long way toward recognizing the humanity of the Palestinians.

He certainly seems to be proposing undoing what's been done. "More bonkers than displacing Palestinians to form israel in the first place? That is actually the only question that needs to be answered. If it was more right to do that, they should remain, if it was a bad decision, they should move." And there are other quotes from earlier in the thread.

I agree with you that both the U.S. and Israel should be completely honest about the sufferings undergone by the indigenous populations as they were formed, and should come up with a political solution to the current problems (obviously the last part there applies just a bit more to Israel). But Troberg's solution, as far as I can tell, is just getting the Israelis to pack up and go somewhere else.

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
Judaism came first. Christianity sees Judaism as 1.0 and itself as 2.0. Islam sees itself as the proper spiritual heir and successor.

Abraham and Jesus taught Islam (as did Adam). Later, pagans corrupted the pure monotheist teachings of Islam and created Judaism and Christianity out of them.

quote:
Surah 5:13
But on account of their [Children of Israel's] breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

God sent a Messenger to restore His doctrines:

quote:
Surah 5:15
O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;



--------------------
All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
Judaism came first. Christianity sees Judaism as 1.0 and itself as 2.0. Islam sees itself as the proper spiritual heir and successor.

Abraham and Jesus taught Islam (as did Adam). Later, pagans corrupted the pure monotheist teachings of Islam and created Judaism and Christianity out of them.
Well, this is an interpretation I've never heard before. I believe you are incorrect, but I won't swear to it on a stack of Books of Mormon...

As I understand it, Mohammed is saying that the Jews turned away from the Law of Moses and the Prophets -- just as many of the Prophets said the very same thing, up to and including Jesus. It is a very consistent theme in the O.T.: "You have broken my commandments and I am mightily wroth with you." (God speaking to the Jews.)

However, Islam, as such, does not exist until Mohammed, just as Christianity does not exist until Jesus. Islam embraces concepts from both Judaism and Christianity, and that is why the "3.0" appellation has some metaphorical validity.

(By the way, this variety of decimal case is very poorly devised for genealogy [Hey, Callee! I had to look it up!] that has branching structures. Straight decimal case cannot adequately interpolate. e.g., is Protestantism "Abrahamic Religion 3.5" or 4.5? Do larger numbers indicate chronological succession, or cladistics? Best to avoid linear reification.)

Silas

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
I agree with you that both the U.S. and Israel should be completely honest about the sufferings undergone by the indigenous populations as they were formed . . .

As for Israel, it already is, and to a fault because national survival depends on avoiding defeatist war-weariness in face of adversaries with enormous patience. See Who removed Zionism from Israel's Textbooks?

The problem with Israeli textbooks is that, by and large, they emphasize the unquestioned sufferings of the indiginous Arabs much more than those of the indiginous Jews massacred-out of the West Bank in the 1930's and 1940's (and massacred with less less political success since then). Both deserve discussion.

There is controversy on the internet back and forth as to how anti-semetic are Palestinian textbooks, and I do not want to get into a war of quotes over that. However, one thing is clear -- unlike mainstream Israeli textbooks, mainstream Palestinian ones emphasize suffering on their own side and maintain that any Jewish suffering is restricted to Jews of European or other immigrant background.

Note that the head of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, is a partial holocaust denier (wrote PhD disseration on supposed Jewish-Nazi connections, quoted as saying 1,000,000 Jews died, equivocates as to whether he still thinks along these lines). And it's the Jews who are denying the other side's suffering?

This isn't a side issue. The Palestinians are taught that the Jews are occupying their ancestral land, which is true, without being taught the balancing idea that, because of 20th century warfare, many formerly Jewish neighborhoods in Palestine are now Arab. As a result, teritorial compromise seems to most of them as inherently unfair. Yes, there are Jews who feel that territorial compromise is similarly unfair -- I'm not claiming that the settlers have evenhanded textbooks. But, by and large, there is a only one side that is remotely honest about the sufferings of the indiginous people.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Archangel:
HRW's report is not extreme. It is balanced and considerate. It is confronting to the American reader because material that is not laudatory of Israel is generally not reported in the US. Consequently HRW's report, while professional and evenhanded, is outside the curve of normal American readership and opinion.

No, it isn't.

This idea that only laudatory material concerning Israel appears in the US press is boloney. There have been the same kind of reports here as elsewhere concerning Palestinian suffering from the fence/wall, even though such fixed fortifications are among the least hellish ways you could fight a war. And there is frequent mention of Palestinian reports that Israeli soldiers have killed Arab children, without any statement that these reports have not always proved true in the past.

What is different about the serious US media (mainly consists of the New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, and Associated Press, plus a few magazines and the Knight-Ridder news service) is that it is more careful than that in some other countries about jumping to conclusions. Thus, except for our National Public Radio, mainstream US media didn't generally report exaggerated death tolls in Jenin. However, US media also tends to hold back news that might favor the right if it isn't proven. A non-Israel example that comes to mind concerns the many London Telegraph stories concerning documents they found lying around the Iraqi foreign ministry, documents linking Saddam with Al Qaeda. Washington Post editor Robert Kaiser explained (in a web-only exercise where he took questions from readers) that he wasn't picking up these stories because the Post didn't know, for sure, the real origins of the documents, and he suggested that the Telegraph was not a careful newspaper. Just so, even though I mostly agree with their POV.

US print media is also more liable than some others to correct errors. Thus there were a number of follow-up reports when it turned out that stories on the death of 12 year old Mohammed al-Dura, widely reported as killed by an Israeli soldier, were flawed. This report in the low circulation but influential Atlantic Monthly was typical: Who Shot Mohammed al-Dura?

US media publishes plenty of stuff that is quite painful for a supporter of Israel like myself to read. We read the same Reuters stories you do in Australia. What we don't see here so much is the partisan rush to judgement prevalent in certain London newspapers linked to both right and left.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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Hmmm....Steve, my reading of US media leaves me with a much different impression of its general stance on the Israel/Palestine situation.

As for NPR's "exaggeration" of the Jenin massacre numbers, do you happen to have a cite on that one?

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Silas Sparkhammer
I would imagine that Troberg isn't proposing undoing what has been done, but acknowledging it. Once such acknowledgement is made, it could go a long way toward recognizing the humanity of the Palestinians.

I'm torn on this issue. On one hand, I think it would be the only way to a lasting peace, on the other I don't really think that it will ever happen.

However, as you say, an acknowledgement of wrongdoings would not only be nice, it would be an essential step that must be taken if any peace process at all is going to work.

quote:
Silas Sparkhammer
Nope, Troberg was right on that one. Judaism came first. Christianity sees Judaism as 1.0 and itself as 2.0. Islam sees itself as the proper spiritual heir and successor.

I'm simplifying this a bit, but the major points of disagreements between the religions are:

Judaism vs Christianity
The Jesus person. One thinks he was the son of god, the other disagreed and killed him.

Christianity vs Islam
The Jesus person. One thinks he was the son of god, the other just considers him one of the prophets. Also, Islam has another prophet which is considered more central which most Christians do not recognize.

Basically and slightly simplified, this is what it boils down to. Sure, there are some differences in rituals, but the basics are the same. Some rules differ, but these are usual practical rules based on the time the religion appeared (for instance, don't eat pork as it was often infected with parasites).

It's amazing how such small differences can inspire crusades and jihads. I think the way to solve this is to open lines of communication (where I think the internet is going a long way) so that people can see that other people are not that different. Perhaps it's soon even time for officials of the different religions to sit down and try to find common ground, to try to create some "unified base religion" which contain the common elements that they can all agree on, much like Catholics and Protestants both considers themselves part of the "base religion" Christianity.

I'm somewhat inspired in this thought by a quote I heard from a Buddhist. I don't remember it verbatim, so I'll just get the gist of it: "I don't see any problem with anyone being a Buddhist and a Christian or a Buddhist and a Moslem at the same time. We share common values, who is to say that god appears in the same way to everyone?". I find this attitude very agreeable and enlightened, even though I'm not a believer of any religious faith (although I still share many of their values).

quote:
Silas Sparkhammer
By the way, this variety of decimal case is very poorly devised for genealogy [Hey, Callee! I had to look it up!] that has branching structures. Straight decimal case cannot adequately interpolate. e.g., is Protestantism "Abrahamic Religion 3.5" or 4.5? Do larger numbers indicate chronological succession, or cladistics? Best to avoid linear reification.

I did not intend for them to be interpreted as numbers. They were meant as version names (often incorrectly refered to as version numbers) as used in software. They can not be used in calculations (you can't say that version 3.0 will take as much time to do as V1.0 + V2.0 and so on), the only allowable operation on them is sorting (ie less than and greater than). Of course, one can always mess up even that by naming versions 3.1, 3.51, 4, 2000, XP, 2003 or 3.0, 3.1, 95, 95SE, 98, ME, but who would do a stupid thing like that? [Eek!] I used the notation assuming people would be familiar with this.

quote:
Steve Eisenberg
This idea that only laudatory material concerning Israel appears in the US press is boloney.

I wouldn't go that far, but there are certain crucial omissions made which sometimes twists the story.

The best example I can think of at the moment is the reports of an attack against an israeli school. Sounds horrible, right. The reader get a mental picture of armed gunmen rushing into a school, killing small children. Well, there was a small, crucial fact omitted. It was not a school for small children, it was a military officer school. At least for me, that makes a huge difference.

I would not say that the media in itself is to blame or that US media is worse than any other media (at least over an average of different subjects, in this issue I think they are worse). Media everywhere is not really governed by facts, they are governed by economics. They know that if they print what people likes to read about, more copies get sold. You don't sell any copies by shaking up the reader's view of the world. In the US case, the readers want to read about bloodthirsty Arab terrorists, so that's the slant media put on it. Any hint of reason or justifiability (is there such a word?) behind the Arab's actions would alienating the readers, costing them money, so they stay well clear of that.

You can easily spot this in other issues. How many papers publish any doubts about raising alarms on global warning based upon a few decades of statistics when we are talking about cycles that span millenia? Not many, because the readers do not want to read it, yet this is an issue that is of serious concern in the scientific community.

Also, a front page that say, in big, bold print: "The sky is going to fall down" will always sell more than a "The sky will remain safely up there".

There is no such thing as an unbiased media, although the only issue they are actually biased in is the bottom line on their bank account. The rest is just a consequence of this.

For some strange reason, this even affect news reporting that should not need to be affected. Swedish TV has two tax financed channels, with news reporting that is not bound by any economical interrests (except of course that they have only a certain spending budget). They don't get more money if they are popular, they don't get less if they are unpopular, yet over the last decade or so, there has been a steep decline in the quality of their reporting. My guess is that earlier, they had their own reporters in every major country and hotspot, but now they tend to just buy pre-chewed news from the big news agencies. It's sad, they actually were really good once.

--------------------
/Troberg

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