quote:Originally posted by Mickey Blue: Great discussion, although I'm afraid I'm still no closer to understanding why people seem so scared of communism.
The Cold War was a scary time. Yes, the "Red Menace" was artificially emphasized by such persons as Joe McCarthy, but, on the other hand, Stalinism did appear to be a real threat, and the Russians did have a very large army poised to leap through West Germany and France -- and both sides had those damned ICBMs.
In *hindsight* we know that communism was corrupt and self-defeating, even more than Nazism. But hindsight is only useful if you own a time machine...
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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The problems of 20th Century communism spring from its comprehensive claims to authority. Anti-communists were correct in describing it as imposing a totalizing worldview. Everything from sexuality to racial identity could somehow be found within communist theory. Meanwhile, the communists who claimed so much delivered very little positive to those who lived under their system.
-------------------- pat "Megadittoes Rush" young
THUMP, THUMP, THUMP Posts: 5442 | From: New York | Registered: Oct 2001
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One of the many drawbacks was the lack of a formalized system for transfer of power.
Not only at the top level, where all the Politburo members would wage extensive behind-the-scenes struggles to be ready to leap at the chairmanship when the old chairman croaked...but at the lower levels of power also.
In *theory* those persons who were fit to lead would be those who best understood communist thought. So, ideally, everyone would take a test, and whoever scored highest, showing their doctrinal correctness, would be the local authority -- whether factory foreman or chairman of the local agricultural district, or big boss man in the Kremlin.
In *practice* party members' family members tended to drift into positions of power, as well as people who toadied up to them and "knew what to kiss, and when."
This is the fatal flaw of *all* one-party systems, from the Catholic Church to Mafia Families.
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Many people (including apparently some posters on this thread) would take it as a compliment to be called a Communist.
And whom might that be, Peter?
That's certainly the impression I get from the page 1 posts by Troodon, Trowa, Wee Wifey, and even ironically Bug Muldoon, to name a few.
quote:
quote: Yeah, I know the story, they weren't "real" Communists, according to someone sitting safely in an armchair on the other side of the world.
For the record, I have a professor who is Russian, who came to the US about 15 years ago. He says that the Soviet Union was never communist.
I said YOU were on the other side of the world, not that "everyone who says they're not "real" communists is on the other side of the world".
quote:Political scientists will tell you that there has been no communist government, because it cannot possibly exist. All it takes to know this is to read the Communist Manifesto. It is in the public domain, so you can find it numerous places, including online.
And all it takes to know that I have read The Communist Manifesto is to read through this thread before shooting off a post.
quote:First off, why edit "piss" here and leave it above? Weird.
Because I don't think I should edit what someone else said if the moderators accept it.
quote: Secondly, I don't get the comparison of Communism to Islam/radical Islam.
I didn't say Islam has anything in common with Communism. Just contrasting the facts that on one hand people blame Islam for the atrocities committed by those few who claim to most radically follow Islam, but OTOH many people refuse to blame Communism even though ALL of the Communists who have gained any power have committed similar and worse atrocities.
And yes I assume that Luis who has posted thousands of posts here has met Cubans online at least (I did not assert that he MUST have. And yes I do know that Portuguese is the official language of Brazil.)
Posts: 670 | From: Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marx wrote that capitalism was a stage in a predictable, linear progression of economic and political development that was historically inevitable. In my opinion, his model was flawed in three glaring ways: (1) economic and political development tends to be chaotic rather than linear; (2) there is no static "end state" that represents an ideal society; the alternative to change is merely stagnation; and (3) "capitalism" is not an ideology, and its expression in real-world economies varies on a case-by-case basis; Adam Smith described capitalism in Wealth of Nations, but that book is not a "manifesto" or a blueprint that can be compared apples-to-apples with Marxism, it is a description of a working system in operation. An academic theory, like Marxism, can't be compared with a description of a working system, like capitalism. The direct comparison is meaningless. Real economic/political systems that are sustained over many years in the real world combine aspects of capitalism and other -isms in varying proportions. Marx was describing a sterile, academic model that doesn't map to the real world. At least, that's how I see it.
-------------------- Ad astra per asparagus. Posts: 4806 | From: Groton, CT | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by PeterK: The death camps were set up under Guevara's direction.
What "death camps", by gosh?!
quote:As your name appears to be Hispanic
My names:
Luís - Portuguese version of the very germanic "Ludwig";
Henrique - Portuguese version of the even more germanic "Heinrich";
Donadio - Calabrian for "alms";
Baptista - Portuguese for "Baptist".
Nothing remotely Hispanic about any of them.
quote:I presume you have had the opportunity to meet many Cubans who are well aware of this.
The Cuban ex-pats I met here are much different from the rabid scum you can so easily find in Miami; while they aren't usually sympathetic to Castro, they would laugh about "Guevara's death camps", if they ever became introduced to the notion, which I guess they never were.
Luís Henrique
Posts: 4498 | From: Brasília, Distrito Federal, Brazil | Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:Originally posted by First of Stew: Probably the one in which poet and human rights activist Armando Valladares, who was imprisoned at La Cabana, documented Guevara's particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of prisoners.
Interesting world, this in which a terrorist who used to place bombs into cigar boxes becomes a "human rights activist", in which a Batista policeman becomes a "poet".
Luís Henrique
Posts: 4498 | From: Brasília, Distrito Federal, Brazil | Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:Many people (including apparently some posters on this thread) would take it as a compliment to be called a Communist.
And whom might that be, Peter?
That's certainly the impression I get from the page 1 posts by Troodon, Trowa, Wee Wifey, and even ironically Bug Muldoon, to name a few.
Oh? That is a pretty massive presumption to make, dontcha think?
quote:
quote:
quote: Yeah, I know the story, they weren't "real" Communists, according to someone sitting safely in an armchair on the other side of the world.
For the record, I have a professor who is Russian, who came to the US about 15 years ago. He says that the Soviet Union was never communist.
I said YOU were on the other side of the world, not that "everyone who says they're not "real" communists is on the other side of the world".
I'm not sure what proximity has to do with anything, particularly when the opinions of those of us on "this side of the world" can be backed up with facts.
Or perhaps I am just not understanding what point it is you are trying to make.
quote:
quote:Political scientists will tell you that there has been no communist government, because it cannot possibly exist. All it takes to know this is to read the Communist Manifesto. It is in the public domain, so you can find it numerous places, including online.
And all it takes to know that I have read The Communist Manifesto is to read through this thread before shooting off a post.
I have read through this thread. I have also read the Communist Manifesto. It is apparant to me that, while you may have read it, you certainly did not understand it, otherwise, you, too, would know that there has never been a communist government.
quote:
quote:First off, why edit "piss" here and leave it above? Weird.
Because I don't think I should edit what someone else said if the moderators accept it.
You did it two different ways in the same post. It is still wierd.
quote:
quote: Secondly, I don't get the comparison of Communism to Islam/radical Islam.
I didn't say Islam has anything in common with Communism. Just contrasting the facts that on one hand people blame Islam for the atrocities committed by those few who claim to most radically follow Islam, but OTOH many people refuse to blame Communism even though ALL of the Communists who have gained any power have committed similar and worse atrocities.
Those who would blame Islam for atrocities committed by Jihadists would be those who blame communism for all atrocities committed by despotic regimes who claimed they were communist. But, as we know from our readings of the Communist Manifesto, there is no such thing as a communist government.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by First of Stew: Probably the one in which poet and human rights activist Armando Valladares, who was imprisoned at La Cabana, documented Guevara's particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of prisoners.
Interesting world, this in which a terrorist who used to place bombs into cigar boxes becomes a "human rights activist", in which a Batista policeman becomes a "poet".
Luís Henrique
And I suppose you have non-Castro-propaganda cites to back that up? Something verifiable, or do you simply trust the Cuban government implicitly?
Guy was a postal worker. Wouldn't put a "I love Castro" sign on his desk. Got 30 years for disrespecting the Prophet of the Red God.
Anyway...
Although exact numbers are hard to determine, several scholars have attempted to estimate the number of political killings committed by Fidel Castro's administration.
R.J. Rummel, Professor Emeritus of Political Science, University of Hawaii, gives the number of 73,000 as the mid-point estimate of victims of the democide by the Castro administration. The low and high estimates are 35,000 and 141,000 respectively.
Reason enough.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by AnglRdr: Those who would blame Islam for atrocities committed by Jihadists would be those who blame communism for all atrocities committed by despotic regimes who claimed they were communist.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by AnglRdr: Those who would blame Islam for atrocities committed by Jihadists would be those who blame communism for all atrocities committed by despotic regimes who claimed they were communist.
1) That governments that named themselves "communist" (USSR, China, Cambodia) did horrible things. Check. Granted. We know this.
2) What is communism, and is it a bad thing? Separate issue, still being debated.
Or...do you consider the East German "Democratic Republic" to have been a democracy and a republic, and judge all democracies and republics by the behavior of that country?
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by AnglRdr: Those who would blame Islam for atrocities committed by Jihadists would be those who blame communism for all atrocities committed by despotic regimes who claimed they were communist.
1) That governments that named themselves "communist" (USSR, China, Cambodia) did horrible things. Check. Granted. We know this.
2) What is communism, and is it a bad thing? Separate issue, still being debated.
Or...do you consider the East German "Democratic Republic" to have been a democracy and a republic, and judge all democracies and republics by the behavior of that country?
Silas
Actually, Silas, you're confusing the nation's name with its style of government: nearly all those Communist countries have/had some variation of "People's Democratic Republic" (three fibs in three words - a doublespeak record) in their names.
Besides, the last paragraph uses this exact example.
quote:In a similar vein, Communists may be seen to engage in the fallacy when, for example, they are confronted with the failures of Soviet Union and other recent Communist governments and say that "true Communism" has never been attempted.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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Okay, first, please demonstrate how the Soviet Union was communist.
Thanks.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Not in my job description. Go argue it with the Wiki writers.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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Hells bells, first, *I* could go in and edit that Wiki; that is the whole purpose of them. They aren't meant to stand on their own as evidence.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by First of Stew: And I suppose you have non-Castro-propaganda cites to back that up? Something verifiable, or do you simply trust the Cuban government implicitly?
Well, since, by definition, you will label as "Castro-propaganda" any site that disagrees with you, no.
quote:The US was forced to admit that the document in Cuban hands was the real thing --embarrassing mostly because the Cubans had gotten hold of it, and because it showed a number of countries with whom the US maintains diplomatic relations the derogatory way in which the State Department refers to them in private.
quote:Guy was a postal worker. Wouldn't put a "I love Castro" sign on his desk. Got 30 years for disrespecting the Prophet of the Red God.
Yup, that is what he says. He also described himself as having being crippled by the treatment he received in Cuban prisons. However, when his French supporters went to Orly to wait him with a wheelchair, they were disappointed by Valladares coming down the stairs in a very athletic fashion...
Luís Henrique
Posts: 4498 | From: Brasília, Distrito Federal, Brazil | Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:Originally posted by First of Stew: Actually, Silas, you're confusing the nation's name with its style of government: nearly all those Communist countries have/had some variation of "People's Democratic Republic" (three fibs in three words - a doublespeak record) in their names.
That's rather the point; the USSR, Cambodia, China, et al, claimed to be communist...but weren't really. They practiced something that Marx would not have recognized.
We all agree that what they practiced was stinko.
What we're exploring, with no help from idealogues on either side of the gulf, is whether communism *could* exist (some say no and some say never) and why people were afraid of it.
What people were afraid of, I think, was the debased form of government that called itself communist. Again, that's granted. But is communism itself to be feared?
I say no. I say it's an abstraction, like capitalism or home rule. It's also, I think, an untenable abstraction, like Eden or Erewhon.
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Communism, if it could be arrived at through nondestructive, nonrepressive, nonviolent means, might work.
The problem is that for now, "you can't get there from here."
Now, get me solar energy stations , asteroids for bulk material, and bring the replicators online, and that'll be something else entirely... because those products have the potential to end scarcity, which is the strongest force behind conventional economics.
In the proccess of divesting myself of materiel for my move, I've discovered the First Law of Economics: "A thing is worth what you can find some damn fool willing to pay for it."
Take want out of the equation by making everything endlessly replicable, and worth plummets to the value of the labor put into the initial creation.
It COULD work.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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There may be an alternate way - I've read an article, in "Nature" IIRC, about genetically engineered mice who reacted to all mice as if they were members of their family group. Perhaps through similar "empathy-enhancing" modification a race of non-selfish humans could be created...
After all, if we want to see communism in action, we just have to look at the social insects. They have evolved to be utterly selfless and dedicate their lives to the hive, and while the genes that allow them to do this probably have no analogs in humans, the existance of the social insects is proof that with sufficient genetic modification, communism is possible!
The only question is whether human intelligence can be preserved while selfishness is removed.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Non-derivable Circle: Well, since, by definition, you will label as "Castro-propaganda" any site that disagrees with you, no.
I'll admit that the lady's a pretty good mouthpiece. I've read a few other articles by her now, and I must say it's interesting to watch her go off on an anti- Amnesty International screed almost like a US right-wing hack.
(Why did you pick a Canadian reprint when you could have chosen an article from Havana, where she lives? Trying to make me think she was an unbiased Canadian reporter instead of a Pro-Castro resident of Cuba?)
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Troodon: There may be an alternate way - I've read an article, in "Nature" IIRC, about genetically engineered mice who reacted to all mice as if they were members of their family group. Perhaps through similar "empathy-enhancing" modification a race of non-selfish humans could be created...
After all, if we want to see communism in action, we just have to look at the social insects. They have evolved to be utterly selfless and dedicate their lives to the hive, and while the genes that allow them to do this probably have no analogs in humans, the existance of the social insects is proof that with sufficient genetic modification, communism is possible!
The only question is whether human intelligence can be preserved while selfishness is removed.
Won't work. The Social Insects all have a Priveliged Class system in place. The Hive is the Queen. The workers and soldiers all die en masse if it serves the queen.
(So really, it's more like the type of Communism that's been attempted than the "ideal." Just replace "Queen" with "Chairman" or "Leader")
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by First of Stew: Take want out of the equation by making everything endlessly replicable, and worth plummets to the value of the labor put into the initial creation.
It COULD work.
Here, we come close to agreement.
You know, GW Bush once said something that a lot of people laugh at, as it was a classic malapropism. But I like it. I really think he (and you, and I) was on to something.
"Make the pie higher."
The effect of what you are describing would not be to make everyone equal. There would still be rich and poor, haves and have-nots. But under such a scheme -- just as in America today -- even the have-nots are pretty well off, much better than even the upper-middle-class in, oh, Zambia or Uruguay.
So, while cheap energy and plentiful resources would *not* bring about the classless society where there is no government and where the workers are all equal -- it would, at least, end the worst privations.
Make the pie higher.
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I wouldn't say that - workers will protect the queen at the cost of their own lives but not because the queen has forced or brainwashed them to do so. They protect the queen because the survival of the queen is absolutely neccessary to the survival of the hive, since only she can lay eggs. If a single particular human being needed to survive in order for the human race as a whole to survive, it would only make sense for other humans to protect him at all costs.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Many people (including apparently some posters on this thread) would take it as a compliment to be called a Communist.
And whom might that be, Peter?
That's certainly the impression I get from the page 1 posts by Troodon, Trowa, Wee Wifey, and even ironically Bug Muldoon, to name a few.
Oh? That is a pretty massive presumption to make, dontcha think?
I dunno, what do you think?:
“private property is still inherently unjust and mankind must find a way to make communism work.” Troodon
“People don't like Communism because it's different. Powerful people don't like it because it threatens their power. These powerful people created propaganda that convinced regular people to hate Communism. They connected Communism to the Soviet Union (and its oppressive policies), when it was not even close to Communist. True communism is what civilization is meant to be- just, classless, and peaceful….There's no such thing as Communist oppression because there are no classes and no rulers to oppress anyone under true Communism.” Trowa
“Do you really want to compare the horrors of capitalism and communism ? Both can be taken to destructive extremes. Capitalism just has better PR.” Bug Muldoon
“I think, personally, the idea of communism is not in itself inheritantly evil. In fact if it were workable I think it's an excellent form of, well for want of a better word- government” Wee Wifey
They all sound pretty complimentary to me.
quote:
quote:
quote:[qb]
quote: Yeah, I know the story, they weren't "real" Communists, according to someone sitting safely in an armchair on the other side of the world.
For the record, I have a professor who is Russian, who came to the US about 15 years ago. He says that the Soviet Union was never communist.
I said YOU were on the other side of the world, not that "everyone who says they're not "real" communists is on the other side of the world".
I'm not sure what proximity has to do with anything, particularly when the opinions of those of us on "this side of the world" can be backed up with facts.
Or perhaps I am just not understanding what point it is you are trying to make.
My point is that it's a lot easier to say "But of course there's nothing wrong with Communism, those murderers aren't REAL communists" when you're safely removed from the millions of people who suffer all their lives under Communist oppression and terror.
quote:
quote:[qb]
quote:Political scientists will tell you that there has been no communist government, because it cannot possibly exist. All it takes to know this is to read the Communist Manifesto. It is in the public domain, so you can find it numerous places, including online.
And all it takes to know that I have read The Communist Manifesto is to read through this thread before shooting off a post.
I have read through this thread. I have also read the Communist Manifesto. It is apparant to me that, while you may have read it, you certainly did not understand it, otherwise, you, too, would know that there has never been a communist government.
You may as well argue "There has never been a "Christian" or "democratic" government, because no government in history has ever been completely true to "Christian" or "democratic" principles. Obviously all of those labels are shorthand ways of making sense of the world, otherwise we'd never be able to talk about anything without someone interrupting to challenge all of our definitions. Then we would never be able to make sense of anything in the real world.
quote:
quote:
quote:First off, why edit "piss" here and leave it above? Weird.
Because I don't think I should edit what someone else said if the moderators accept it.
You did it two different ways in the same post. It is still wierd.
No, I QUOTED it the way another poster said it, then I said it in my own way in a different context. It's not my job to censor others' posts.
Luis, sorry if I offended you; “Hispanic” is used in Australia to include people of Portuguese descent or language, as well as Spanish. I have a workmate whose parents were Portuguese and who describes himself as Hispanic. It’s sad that you didn’t know about the Communist mass murder in Cuba, but that illustrates my point about what wonderful PR Communists have. Btw “Dr” Guevara wasn’t just following Castro’s orders, he was personally very enthusiastic about setting up the camps and carrying out the torture and murders. I grant you, the Cuban Communists have (so far) murdered "only" about 2% of their own people, which looks relatively good compared to their comrades in other countries where the figure is between 10% and 30%. But it's still tens of thousands of murders in a small country; and as far as the media, politicians and the general public's knowledge are concerned, the victims may as well not exist, when you compare it to the fuss made about a couple of thousand people murdered on 11/9/01 in a country of nearly 300 million.
Posts: 670 | From: Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mr. Snake
The Red and the Green Stamps
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Communism, as an idea, is basically good. But it's too naive, and wouldn't work in the real world. As evidenced by the fact, that, it hasn't worked in the real world, in the 80+ years it's been practiced. Doesn't the fact that horrific human-rights abuses, genocides, and the lack of individual liberty on just about each and every "Communist" country give anyone pause?
Granted, they may not have achieved "true" communism. But it seems that this sort of stuff happens in countries that try to practice communism. And it seem to happen in ways that put most capitalist nations to shame.
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quote:written by PeterKYou may as well argue "There has never been a "Christian" or "democratic" government, because no government in history has ever been completely true to "Christian" or "democratic" principles. Obviously all of those labels are shorthand ways of making sense of the world, otherwise we'd never be able to talk about anything without someone interrupting to challenge all of our definitions. Then we would never be able to make sense of anything in the real world.
It's not like those examples, though. "Communist" and "government" are mutually exclusive words. You cannot have Communism and also have a government.
By the way, PeterK, I am not a Communist. Communism is a nice dream, but I am well aware that it will not work on a large scale, at least not before some monumental shift in human development in which greed is eradicated (i.e. never). I do support the socialization of all necessities (namely food, clothing, housing, education, healthcare, and all utilities) while leaving everything else to the private sector.
-------------------- ÒIf you shut up truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will blow up everything in its way.Ó -Emile Zola Posts: 1046 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2002
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damsa
The Red and the Green Stamps
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quote:Originally posted by Trowa: It's not like those examples, though. "Communist" and "government" are mutually exclusive words. You cannot have Communism and also have a government.
How is communism and government mutually exclusive? I grant you that anarchy and government are mutually exclusive. Communism is a market theory. In theory you can have a communist democratic government.
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quote:Originally posted by Trowa: It's not like those examples, though. "Communist" and "government" are mutually exclusive words. You cannot have Communism and also have a government.
How is communism and government mutually exclusive? I grant you that anarchy and government are mutually exclusive. Communism is a market theory. In theory you can have a communist democratic government.
It's really a social theory as well as an economic one. The Communist Manifesto says that once Communism has been achieved, a government is no longer necessary, and no one rules over anyone else.
-------------------- ÒIf you shut up truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will blow up everything in its way.Ó -Emile Zola Posts: 1046 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Trowa: It's really a social theory as well as an economic one. The Communist Manifesto says that once Communism has been achieved, a government is no longer necessary, and no one rules over anyone else.
In the ideal case, communism is the "cure" to the "prisoners' dilemma." In a true communist state, every citizen is sufficiently educated to know what he and she must do to support and maintain the state.
Such a citizen-nation would not *need* leaders. Everyone would automatically (by their education) know the right thing to do at any time.
If the nation were invaded, they would spontaneously take up arms. If there were a drought, they would know to dig irrigation ditches and wells.
B.F. Skinner describes something vaguely akin to this in his semi-utopian Walden Two, a book that I found every bit as implausible as "real communism." Human nature just doesn't *work* that way! One greedy slob would ruin it, just as quickly as one bad apple spoils the whole barrel; the entire mechanism would break down around that person, and he or she would either conquer it or be consumed when it self-destructed.
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer: B.F. Skinner describes something vaguely akin to this in his semi-utopian Walden Two, a book that I found every bit as implausible as "real communism." Human nature just doesn't *work* that way! One greedy slob would ruin it, just as quickly as one bad apple spoils the whole barrel; the entire mechanism would break down around that person, and he or she would either conquer it or be consumed when it self-destructed.
Silas
In my Intro to Politics class, Skinner, Marx, and others were all included in the "Utopian" class of political theories.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer: [QUOTE]B.F. Skinner describes something vaguely akin to this in his semi-utopian Walden Two, a book that I found every bit as implausible as "real communism." Human nature just doesn't *work* that way! One greedy slob would ruin it, just as quickly as one bad apple spoils the whole barrel; the entire mechanism would break down around that person, and he or she would either conquer it or be consumed when it self-destructed.
Silas
And, unfortunately, most of us are to a greater or lesser extent greedy slobs. Capitalism acknowledges this, and tries to set things up so that the pull of our different greeds cancel on another out.
Anyone here ever read Ursula K. LeGuin's THE DISPOSESSED?
-------------------- "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Elkhound: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer: And, unfortunately, most of us are to a greater or lesser extent greedy slobs. Capitalism acknowledges this, and tries to set things up so that the pull of our different greeds cancel on another out.
Anyone here ever read Ursula K. LeGuin's THE DISPOSESSED?
Actually, true capitalism ignores the inherent greedy nature of man just as much as true communism ignores it.
To state the free markets will always self-regulate, and there will be no need for govenment intervention in business is just as naive as stating that people will serve the needs of the community as conditions dictate and there will be no need for a government.
-------------------- "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Trowa, I never accused you of being a Communist. I merely said that you and others would not find it insulting to be called a Communist.
Actually I don't believe anyone has mentioned the biggest flaw of all in Marx's wacky theory: He asserts that Communism is HISTORICALLY INEVITABLE, (i.e. it WILL happen even if no-one does anything to bring it about) yet he calls on people to wage violent revolution and murder to MAKE it happen.
Posts: 670 | From: Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Trowa: I do support the socialization of all necessities (namely food, clothing, housing, education, healthcare, and all utilities) while leaving everything else to the private sector.
Just out of curiosity on this part, I'm going to hijack. How would the mechanism of housing and utilities work? Would everyone be given a small house/apartment? What if they didn't maintian them? And utilities? What would prevent wasting of heat/cooling/water/etc without the financial disincentive?
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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