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Author Topic: Police Raid Science Fiction Sex Cult
Sandman
Deck the Malls


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The article doesn't state that the group was holding her against her will, really. It says she contacted a friend in America for help leaving because she burned her passport, not because she was being held prisoner. Sounds like she got really, really into it at first, then changed her mind and realized without her passport she was going to need some help getting home. That's all fairly cut-and-dried. If she had been held against her will I'm sure the constabulary would have acted on that. And I'll bet they scrutinized the situation pretty damn closely due to the weirdness of it, too.

As for the Goreans...I find the lifestyle weird, strange, and more than a little repulsive. Come to think of it, I feel the same way about Republicans, but I would never presume to force my opinion of either lifestyle on another consenting adult. What 2 (or 3, or 4, or the entire road company of "RENT") do in the privacy of their own homes is no damn business of mine, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Now pardon me while I fetch the wet suit with the bottom cut out and the bucket of soapy frogs.

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"I will tell you in another life, when we are both cats."

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mommyrex
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman:
The article doesn't state that the group was holding her against her will, really. It says she contacted a friend in America for help leaving because she burned her passport, not because she was being held prisoner. Sounds like she got really, really into it at first, then changed her mind and realized without her passport she was going to need some help getting home. That's all fairly cut-and-dried. If she had been held against her will I'm sure the constabulary would have acted on that. And I'll bet they scrutinized the situation pretty damn closely due to the weirdness of it, too.

I think being able to contact a friend in America is the first bit of evidence that she wasn't being held against her will. Certainly communication would be the first thing a denied a true captive.
quote:
Originally posted by Sandman:
Now pardon me while I fetch the wet suit with the bottom cut out and the bucket of soapy frogs.

HaHa! [Big Grin]

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We also ask that you follow the guidelines above and try not to over-think these guidelines.
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Bug Muldoon
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
I think being able to contact a friend in America is the first bit of evidence that she wasn't being held against her will.
I think trying to contact a friend is the first bit of evidence that she was hald against her will...but because any possibly form of abuse is apparently a figment of my imagination, I'm bailing out of this thread.

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All along the untrodden paths of the future, I can see the footprints of an unseen hand.

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Llewtrah
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
quote:
I think being able to contact a friend in America is the first bit of evidence that she wasn't being held against her will.
I think trying to contact a friend is the first bit of evidence that she was hald against her will...
If she was held against her will she would have no access to phones, emails or even snail-mail. She did something silly - burning her return ticket - and then it turned out she missed home and she needed a new passport. I know several subs who have moved around the country or even abroad to be with a Dom (the "true master" syndrome) then needed help to come home when the fantasy life started to wear thin. It's not that uncommon.

Had she been there against her will, the FBI would have been in touch with the British Police about getting her out of there. Things would be getting very heavy handed. None of that has happened which means she wasn't an unwilling captive in need of rescue. All parties are probably somewhat embarrassed at having their lifestyle and fantasies dragged out into the open.

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Biggles
I Saw Three Shipments


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Just to weigh in my 2c worth, I think Bug Muldoon has got the wrong end of the stick. The police thought that somebody who was role playing, was really kidnapped and being held against there will. They weren't so police withdrew .. end of story.

I see that there is potential for somebody or a group to end up taking role playing too far, but as far I understand, its not the case this time.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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I think it's even easier. The police hoped they could interrupt an orgy.

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/Troberg

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Em
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
I think trying to contact a friend is the first bit of evidence that she was hald against her will.

I called a friend the other day. Is that evidence that my cat is holding me prisoner?

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What the NFBSK does YOMANK mean?

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Salamander
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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For some reason, I'm reminded of the "Nice Guy" thread over in Rantidote from a month or two ago. While not exactly the same, there are some parallels I'm seeing here.

I'm not sure I can fully explain the idea ruminating in my head, perhaps if I can at least partially explain it someone else might pick up the idea and express it better than I.

Basically, I find the idea that any woman who participates in a BDSM lifestyle is "brainwashed" and/or mentally ill is as sexist as the thought that women shouldn't work and belong at home, cooking & cleaning and raising the kids.

The core of the matter to me is choice. There is nothing sexist in a woman choosing to be a SAHM (or even a Stay At Home Wife), there is only sexism involved if that role is thrust upon her without consent and for no other reason than she is a woman. My wife has often expressed a desire to be a SAHM if we could afford not to have her wage coming in, unfortunately we can't so for the moment we both work.

What I would ask anyone to consider is this: If you are outraged by the idea of a man sexually dominating a woman, are you equally outraged by a woman sexually dominating a man? In my experience, people get much more flustered by the idea of a man paddling his girlfriend/lover/wife than they do over a woman telling her boyfriend/lover/husband to kneel down and lick her boots.

Probably because one enforces the predominant patriarchy (probably the wrong term, forgive me) which we are being told is wrong and evil -- which really, it is... male chauvinism is not very nice. The other turns this completely around.

There are plenty of other examples -- girls who are raped by older men are victims (and the perpetrator is the greatest of villains) while boys who are raped by older women are "lucky". Gay men are "icky" while lesbians are "hot". Women involved in porn are being exploited, etc, etc. It really seems to say "Women are weak and must be given special protection".

Back to what I mentioned before -- consent and willingness is the key. Holding the belief that all women who engage in submissive roleplay are "victims" who could never have possibly consented to such activities without some mental illness or brainwashing speaks volumes about the attitude one has towards women.

And to those who do think women couldn't possibly make that choice, I say NFBSK that. I believe women are fully capable of making their own choices and for some that choice happens to include the desire to submit themselves to another person for the purpose of sexual gratification. I don't think a submissive woman (in the BDSM sense of the word) is weak or brainwashed or victimised -- in fact I'd have to say I see the exact opposite, an empowered woman in full control of her sexuality.

Does that mean I see women who don't engage in BDSM as weak-willed or not in control of her sexuality? Nope, not in the slightest.

Does this mean that women are never victimised or exploited in BDSM? I wouldn't be so blindly naive as to think it doesn't. I just don't act upon stereotypes and assumptions.

ETA: Em, you've told me about your cat before. I'll contact the police -- we'll have you out of there and safe from the reaches of that cat in no time. Just hang in there and don't give up hope, okay?

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"victory thru self-deception"

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Salamander, you've got balls, but just because god didn't strike you down, you're not invulnerable. You are bound to get clobbered by the politically correct crowd here. [Smile]

That said, I agree with you.

A good example I heard about how women are treated as more vulnerable than men is about a guy who passed out drunk on a class trip, and some slightly less drunk girls in the class used the opportunity to shave his privates as a joke, causing him some embarassment with his girlfriend.

Most people who read this will probably see it as a joke, even if somewhat inapropriate. Some may even chuckle a bit.

What have you thought if the roles where reversed? What if a drunk girl had been shaved by a bunch of drunk guys? That's when people start talking about snipping off body parts, even though both cases are equally wrong.

Not seeing yourself as a victim is the first step away from becoming one. I think that the world needs more people, women and men, who can stand up and say "I do this, and it's my choice". Maybe it's not what I'd do, but I can respect that others have other interests. Also, by clearly stating that it's their own choice, they give the ones who really are victims a better chance to be recognized and heard, instead of being drowned in a flood of misdirected outrage.

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/Troberg

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Llewtrah
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I think that the world needs more people, women and men, who can stand up and say "I do this, and it's my choice". Maybe it's not what I'd do, but I can respect that others have other interests. Also, by clearly stating that it's their own choice, they give the ones who really are victims a better chance to be recognized and heard, instead of being drowned in a flood of misdirected outrage.

Well I do it and it's my choice [Smile] And I enjoy it so I do it again. And again.

There are lot of very responsible people in the BDSM community who keep a look out for people who are out of their depth or have been coerced. If we find someone who is coercive or abusive (rather than dominant) or has a victim mentality (rather than being submissive) word goes round, but it is always up to other people with they choose and consent to play with those folks or not.

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Em
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Salamander:
Em, you've told me about your cat before. I'll contact the police -- we'll have you out of there and safe from the reaches of that cat in no time. Just hang in there and don't give up hope, okay?

But... she'll moult all over my black pants! [Eek!]

As for the rest of what you said, I agree. It might not be my cup of tea as a permanent lifestyle choice, but being tied up every now and then can be fun. It's a game. It's a change from being sensible and "in charge" all the time. The assumption that I, as a female, am somehow unable to properly consent to such an activity is vaguely insulting.

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What the NFBSK does YOMANK mean?

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Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
A good example I heard about how women are treated as more vulnerable than men is about a guy who passed out drunk on a class trip, and some slightly less drunk girls in the class used the opportunity to shave his privates as a joke, causing him some embarassment with his girlfriend.

Most people who read this will probably see it as a joke, even if somewhat inapropriate. Some may even chuckle a bit.

What have you thought if the roles where reversed? What if a drunk girl had been shaved by a bunch of drunk guys? That's when people start talking about snipping off body parts, even though both cases are equally wrong.

A lot of the harm from "sexual assault" type crimes is psychological, and it seems to me that women generally suffer more psychological harm from them than men do. I don't think that's just a product of societal expectations of how each gender should behave - I think that there are differences between how men and women inherently perceive those experiences.

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Fools! You've over-estimated me!

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by LadyLockeout:
No. I condone and support the fact that people are free to choose their own lifestyles. I do not have to LIKE it, but I can accept it. What goes on behind closed doors in a consentual setting does not matter to me. Your attitude of "they are all sick psychos" nails really close to home for me. I enjoy bloodplay. My husband enjoys it as well. We will quite happily slice eachother to ribbons and have sex while blood goes everywhere. I suppose that makes us "sick psychos" too, but I do not particulalry care because I happen to enjoy it.

Just for my own curiosity, is it the blood that you enjoy or the cutting? Why do you think that you enjoy this?

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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GenYus: You didn't ask me, but I'll put in my 2 cents on the bloodsport thing.

First, it's an enormous headrush. Allowing someone to have the power over you to cut into your skin, combined with the pain, is pretty intense (I almost passed out last night from a scene that culminated in cutting). Secondly, part of it is the blood. I have a fascination with blood. Always have. That's part of the reason I started cutting and pulling skin off of my cuticles. With the bloodsports, however, it's done under far more sterile and controlled environments, so it isn't nearly as destructive as I'd normally do.
Also, and this may just be me, but the marking aspect of it is pretty primal. You leave your mark on the other's skin. It's a visual reminder of that person every time you see it in the mirror.



And, yes, before anyone remembers, I do have some pretty stern philosophical problems with these activities. I don't think they are healthy or truly sane. But, then again, neither is drinking, smoking, or pulling inches of skin off of my fingers. If the practice is done in the context of a trusting, highly negotiated, respectful environment, it's a pretty good catharsis, and seems theraputic at times.

On the subject of the OP groups, I want to point out a quote from the BBC article on the Goreans, which illuminates my problem with them:

From the Group Master, Lee Thompson: "But the majority of women in our organisation are obviously slaves because women have a submissive streak in them." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4996410.stm

Note the wording here. Not because "the women drawn to our organization," or "the women who we seek out to join us," but women. In general. Those who don't become, in Mr. Thompson's mind, an abberation. To Mr. Thompson, at least, this isn't a case of individuals and individuals. It's a case of the yearnings of two seperate and distinct groups, in this case Male and Female. This is disturbing. The novels upon which these groups are based are disturbing and disgusting, not because they portray individuals acting out fantasies, even in a 24-7 context (which I really question as a SSC activity, but also realize some people really relish), but because they are making a social statement about a particular group (in this case, a group that has been oppressed and thrown into that role in real life for centuries).

That's why these articles set my teeth on edge.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Communication Attempt
Jingle Bell Hock


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I also agree with Salamander.

I think few people can grasp that some women can be just as dirty and nasty as men.That any woman in a submissive sexual role must be held against her will and the thought that she actually enjoys it is too inpure and improper to even consider!

I happen to know a couple naughty girls who enjoy being both Dom and Sub.

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"I love God,he's so deliciously evil!" -Stewie,Family Guy

The fun thing about standards is that they come in so many varieties.

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Sandman
Deck the Malls


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I'm reminded of the Mary Kay LaTuerno case. I teach high school, and at the time it was THE topic to dish on amongst students and faculty.

The over all consensus of the talk was that she was a sick pedophile, and he was the luckiest damn kid ever. On the several times I asked how he could have been "lucky" to have been victimized by a "pedophile," all I got were blank stares and confused looks.

The is a double standard in our culture: guys with a prolific sex life as young teens are "players" and "studs." Girls the same age with multiple partners are "bitches" and "sluts." The term "pimp" has come to mean something attractive and desireable, but the whord "whore" is still a slander. (You think MTV will ever have a show called "Whore My House?")

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"I will tell you in another life, when we are both cats."

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Em:
quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
I think trying to contact a friend is the first bit of evidence that she was hald against her will.

I called a friend the other day. Is that evidence that my cat is holding me prisoner?
Unless your cat cut the phone cord and can physically prevent you from repairing or replacing it and can physiclaly hold you prisoner, I would say that it is evidence... That your cat isnt holding you prisoner.

We are talking about people, not cats and their owners. Kidnappers would usually eliminate means of communication from their prisoners since the first people they would call would be the police.

I agree with that statement though 100 percent. From teh gist of teh articale, she got in a little too deep, and wanted to go home but she had no passport and saught a friends advice on getting a new one.

The police investigated and found no kidnapping had occured. If there was something fishy going on we would know about it. There wasnt.

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W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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LadyLockeout
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
quote:
Originally posted by LadyLockeout:
No. I condone and support the fact that people are free to choose their own lifestyles. I do not have to LIKE it, but I can accept it. What goes on behind closed doors in a consentual setting does not matter to me. Your attitude of "they are all sick psychos" nails really close to home for me. I enjoy bloodplay. My husband enjoys it as well. We will quite happily slice eachother to ribbons and have sex while blood goes everywhere. I suppose that makes us "sick psychos" too, but I do not particulalry care because I happen to enjoy it.

Just for my own curiosity, is it the blood that you enjoy or the cutting? Why do you think that you enjoy this?
I enjoy all aspects of it. Ryda said a bit of it, but I really can't put into words the entire feeling. I've enjoyed it (the cutting itself) since I was about six or seven years old. I experimented with it all through my life as various forms of release, anger, sadness, and now sexual.

ETA: And I love my scars. *shrug*

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Katesune: We still can't find the way to albuquerque, and glisp won't stop to ask for directions.
Glisp42: Of course not. I know where I'm going, I just don't know where I am right now

Twisted Links

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Deansinger
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
quote:
It was a safe, sane and consensual BDSM set up though I'm not going to expect people not into this activity to understand it.
They were Goreans. That precludes any claims of "safety" and "consensus"; they don't even have safewords, for god's sake. They're the kind of sick psychos that make regular BDSM-enthusiasts whince.

They base their lifestyle on a series of blatantly mysoginistic fetish novels that describe a world where women have absolutely no value except as sex slaves and men can literally do whatever they want with them. Goreans don't just keep this attitude in the bedroom, they honestly believe that their sex slaves are their property 24/7. It's about as far as you can get from healthy BDSM.

Regular dom/sub clubs aren't cults but these freaks certainly were.

Wow, Bug.
I was expecting you to call them heretics any second there. Just because they don't do it "your" way, doesn't mean they're doing it all wrong.

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It doesn't matter if you're wrong.. Be Wrong Loud!

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Llewtrah
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:

From the Group Master, Lee Thompson: "But the majority of women in our organisation are obviously slaves because women have a submissive streak in them." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4996410.stm

Note the wording here. Not because "the women drawn to our organization," or "the women who we seek out to join us," but women. In general. Those who don't become, in Mr. Thompson's mind, an abberation.

How do we know the press didn't precis Mr Thompson's words? That's why I no longer do interviews (on any topic). I used to be spokesperson for a local animal charity, but got fed up with reporters. I have far too often had quotes taken out of context or had qualifying details omitted when it gets printed. The result makes for a more sensational soundbite, but misrepresents the person or organisation and can end up saying almost the opposite of what is meant. I seventually upplied my part in written form just so I had some come-back when they omitted words or whole sentences.

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Lizz24
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:

From the Group Master, Lee Thompson: "But the majority of women in our organisation are obviously slaves because women have a submissive streak in them." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4996410.stm

Note the wording here. Not because "the women drawn to our organization," or "the women who we seek out to join us," but women. In general. Those who don't become, in Mr. Thompson's mind, an abberation.

How do we know the press didn't precis Mr Thompson's words?
Because they didn't. I actually heard this interview on the radio and he definitely said that "women [as in general] have a submissive streak".
I remember it as it made me choke on my tea.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
A lot of the harm from "sexual assault" type crimes is psychological, and it seems to me that women generally suffer more psychological harm from them than men do. I don't think that's just a product of societal expectations of how each gender should behave - I think that there are differences between how men and women inherently perceive those experiences.
Perhaps, or perhaps men are so much expected to "take it like a man" and laugh it off that they don't admit the hurt to others and maybe not even to themselves, even though it's still there.

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/Troberg

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Spamamander in a pear tree
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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- rubs temples quietly, and wonders if she is going to end up on a severe beating (and not the entertaining kind) on this board, for getting into TMI territory and perhaps encouraging people to think she is "brainwashed".-

Here's an interesting conundrum, I am both a feminist and a submissive. Actually, within the BDSM and S/m lifestyles I find this is not an uncommon position. One can believe in equal opportunity for both genders and work towards the elimination of patriarchal abuses worldwide and still recognize that for themself they thrive in a Dom/sub or S/m relationship. Isn't that the ultimate goal in feminism- the freedom to make choices for yourself?

This case is one where people caught on to the whole "OMG it's a sex cult!" issue and obviously it came out where a woman was enamored by the "true Master" syndrome, then got into the day-to-day workings and realised perhaps this situation wasn't for her, and that she had pulled a stupid by burning her bridges home.

Now, "Goreans" on a whole can be a strange breed, and I personally get pissed off at men who take John Norman (John Lange) as gospel, about how ALL women are secretly slaves in their hearts and such. Lange might be a good scholar, but he's a wretched author, as anyone who has worked their way through one of his convoluted paragraphs can attest to. It might make for good sci-fi/ fantasy fare for some but its not a way to view the real world. There are constant clashes on roleplay forums by people who rp "Gor" online and people who claim to be "Goreans" in real life. Well, folks, the planet Gor doesn't exist. There are a few positive things one can take from the cultures in the novels about honor and personal responsibility, but if you have to get those from a dime store 1970's paperback I feel badly for you.

The irony is that John Lange has repeatedly come forward stating his works were never intended for real life or roleplay. Whether he really means this, or whether he is covering his ass, who knows for sure.

In any event, even if the person in the interview DID say that women in general have a submissive streak (snort) it's his personal belief, right or wrong (ok, extremely wrong, but we know that [Big Grin] ). A person still generally has to seek out this kind of lifestyle, its not coersion. (Those cases where women are kidnapped or manipulated are NOT indicative of S/m, its the product of a psychopathic personality, in the same way that a man who molests young boys is not gay, he's a predatory pedophile.) There are a fairly large number of "Goreans" in the U.S., many even living in communal societies or travelling as motorcycle groups. (In this case, emulating the migratory culture.) For obvious reasons people cannot be open about living in any of these lifestyles- as the OP shows.

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"There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning." -Albert Einstein

Posts: 1058 | From: Yakima, WA | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Spamamander with cheese on rye:

Here's an interesting conundrum, I am both a feminist and a submissive. Actually, within the BDSM and S/m lifestyles I find this is not an uncommon position. One can believe in equal opportunity for both genders and work towards the elimination of patriarchal abuses worldwide and still recognize that for themself they thrive in a Dom/sub or S/m relationship. Isn't that the ultimate goal in feminism- the freedom to make choices for yourself?

Spamander: Exactly. But it's a thorny issue for me in a personal sense. I still have trouble reconciling it from time to time. However, what I keep on reminding myself is that there's a difference between my ultimate philosophical desire and the reality of who I've become over years of living in this culture (or perhaps who I was to begin with, but I'm not at the stage where I can examine it.) In any case, this is the safest, most controlled way in which I can explore this dynamic, and denying the dynamic exists has done me no good. Grrr. It's not clear cut, and that drives me mad.

quote:
Originally posted by Spamamander with cheese on rye:

In any event, even if the person in the interview DID say that women in general have a submissive streak (snort) it's his personal belief, right or wrong (ok, extremely wrong, but we know that [Big Grin] ). A person still generally has to seek out this kind of lifestyle, its not coersion. (Those cases where women are kidnapped or manipulated are NOT indicative of S/m, its the product of a psychopathic personality, in the same way that a man who molests young boys is not gay, he's a predatory pedophile.) There are a fairly large number of "Goreans" in the U.S., many even living in communal societies or travelling as motorcycle groups. (In this case, emulating the migratory culture.) For obvious reasons people cannot be open about living in any of these lifestyles- as the OP shows.

I want to make sure that it is understood that I legally support the right of these folks to live and believe as they choose. However, I still reserve the right to point out that stereotyping a group diminishes respect for an individual of that group, and I think that respect in any relationship, even a master/slave, is essential. Personally, I view this segment much like I view the radical evangelicals I knew who believed in their wives never working, dissallowing their daughters a college education, and choosing their children's marriage partners for them. It's their right. That doesn't mean it's a healthy or sane choice.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Spamamander in a pear tree
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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I guess that is where I make my own personal line... I do not and will not expose my children, particularly my girls, to the idea that women should be subservient in any way, shape or form. I, as an adult, discovered some of my own personality traits and within the boundaries of relationships so choose (or have chosen) to explore those. I think that the indoctrination by evangelicals and others into their female children that they are appointed ONLY certain societal roles is harmful, in many aspects.

Therefore I see a difference between an upbringing requiring women to see themselves only in this role, and choosing as an adult to place yourself in it. Personally, I think men who develop the attitude as shown by the spokseman for this group to be NFBSK-holes, though I, like you, support their right to believe that way. Then again, I also wonder about their own upbringing, because I can hardly believe that sudden exposure to some badly written pseudo-pornography can make someone wake up one morning and believe that its the "natural order" for men to dominate women. It's all something I struggle with, reconciling my beliefs about the rights of individuals to choose their lifestyles and when it becomes appropriate to, er, forcibly educate people with a smack upside the head.

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"There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning." -Albert Einstein

Posts: 1058 | From: Yakima, WA | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Llewtrah
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I am a subby and also equal rights for women, though I manage to separate it out. I am only subby in my sex-life (sometimes extending it to a bit of domestic slavery for my former Master, but it ultimately ended up with sex slavery [Smile] ). In my social life I am an equal (unless I was at a BDSM thing with my Master and "in role"). In work life I have to take responsibility for things/people, which means I often have to give orders to other people - I am co-operative, I must often look for compromises, but I'm paid to oversee certain tasks, not be submissive!

I suppose I just like letting go of responsibility and being told what to do sometimes and not have someone expect me to make decisions. When we're short handed at work I often pitch in on some of the mindless, repetitive tasks (still essential work) and that is also a rest from making decisions and managing other people.

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Posts: 2040 | From: Chelmsford, Essex, England | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Here's an interesting conundrum, I am both a feminist and a submissive.
I don't find any conflict in that. You get what you want, in this case to be submissive. You are not forced into it, it's what you want. Superficially, it may look like you are being dominated, but you are because you have the power to let it happen as you wish.

What turns people on are not always according to social norms. Saying that being submissive is abnormal is like saying it's abnormal to have fantasies about someone that's married. It's not socially proper, but it happens.

Of course, I may be talking bullshit here, I'm not into BDSM so I have no actual experience. Personally, I think it's nice to sometimes let one part lead, but not dominate, more like one might lead in a dance, but beyond that, I would feel too nervous.

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/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Llewtrah
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
Here's an interesting conundrum, I am both a feminist and a submissive.
I don't find any conflict in that. You get what you want, in this case to be submissive. You are not forced into it, it's what you want. Superficially, it may look like you are being dominated, but you are because you have the power to let it happen as you wish.
Troberg - that is an extremely good rationalisation of the situation. Thank you.

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Messybeast Cat Resource Archive
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Posts: 2040 | From: Chelmsford, Essex, England | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
The Memorial Storm
Lard Sharks


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quote:
Originally posted by LadyLockeout:
quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
And anyone who only gets pleasure from that kind of submission needs a psychiatrist, not a master.

Attitudes like this are why the police were raiding a "science fiction sex cult" I'm sure.

[Roll Eyes]

Look, you don't have to like "Gorean" society, but other people DO. Just because they do doesn't -make- them "sick psychos". If the women and men are going into it with "I enjoy this" what's your problem? If you walked up to me and said "Hey Locke, guess what, I enjoy getting chained up and beaten to a pulp and then told to clean my masters house" I might say "That's, umm, nice" and think you were weird, but if you weren't brainwashed (not that I could tell) and you were obviously enjoying yourself, why should I care?

ETA: Llewtrah said it better than I did anyway. Oh well.

You don't need to care, but the fact that you may think he was "weird" means that you have already formed an opinion about him. An opinion isn't a bad thing so why link Bug Muldoon's attitude to that of those cops? There is no proof that Bug Muldoon and those cops have the same attitude about anything let alone this topic so why generalize? Unless there has been an increase of people being able to read minds?

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"Everything dies, but not everything comes to an end..." - Rev. Thomas Martin, City of the Dead

Posts: 293 | From: Toronto, ON | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
LadyLockeout
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Actually, while they may not have the "same" attitude, Bug's attitude is/was pretty damned nasty. Thinking someone is weird isn't really any big deal, especially if you're not tactless enough to go "Hey, you sick weirdo!"

After reading the article I realized that the cops were only acting on information they'd recieved, not out of any gung ho "hey lets raid the sick psycho's gathering!". I still don't see where there's a problem with consenting adults doing what they like to do behind closed doors.

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Katesune: We still can't find the way to albuquerque, and glisp won't stop to ask for directions.
Glisp42: Of course not. I know where I'm going, I just don't know where I am right now

Twisted Links

Posts: 2599 | From: Texas | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Deansinger
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Lizz24:
quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:

From the Group Master, Lee Thompson: "But the majority of women in our organisation are obviously slaves because women have a submissive streak in them." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4996410.stm

Note the wording here. Not because "the women drawn to our organization," or "the women who we seek out to join us," but women. In general. Those who don't become, in Mr. Thompson's mind, an abberation.

How do we know the press didn't precis Mr Thompson's words?
Because they didn't. I actually heard this interview on the radio and he definitely said that "women [as in general] have a submissive streak".
I remember it as it made me choke on my tea.

Oh, the joys of the multi-layered quote! Anyway, while I would disagree with the guy's statement that women in general have a submissive streak, one may concede that women who seek out the "gorean" lifestyle are very likely to have a submissive streak to them. I would grant the possibility that, while not explicitly stated that way, he may have, as his intent. meant the statement in terms of women within that lifestyle.

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It doesn't matter if you're wrong.. Be Wrong Loud!

Posts: 398 | From: Fallon, NV | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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