posted
A porn actress was arrested in Oklahoma on child rape charges after allegedly persuading a high school student to run away from home and have sex with her.
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Reading this I'm just reminded of my early high school year when me and my buds looked at porn mags saying "I'de like to NBSK her" "I'd do her!" and then imagine this guy coming along "Oh yeah?Well she wants to do me!"
-------------------- "I love God,he's so deliciously evil!" -Stewie,Family Guy
The fun thing about standards is that they come in so many varieties. Posts: 510 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2004
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Hmm... I think it would be a wet dream for most 15 year old boys. I highly doubt that he wasnt a consentual participant. Of course, giving drugs to him is a nono. So in my ehtic sense the rape charge should be tossed out, but she should be charged for drugpeddling to minors. Just my two feathers.
-------------------- ~Reality, the refuge of those who fail in RPGs~ aka Darkfist Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Posts: 334 | From: Lancaster, Ohio | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: Hmm... I think it would be a wet dream for most 15 year old boys. I highly doubt that he wasnt a consentual participant. Of course, giving drugs to him is a nono. So in my ehtic sense the rape charge should be tossed out, but she should be charged for drugpeddling to minors. Just my two feathers.
Yes, 15-year old boys want sex. The vast, vast majority of them will do things that are not good for them in order to get sex. That's the problem. The are not mature enough to balance that lust with reason. It can be harmful to their development. That's sort of the reason we came up with statutory rape laws in the first place.
The 15-year old probably really wanted the drugs, too. Should we throw those charges out as well?
-------------------- "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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Nope, unlike consentual sex drugs ARE bad for the health. But I think a 15 year old boy is usually old enough to know it better about sex. They are bodily ready and believe me.. I wouldnt have minded a sexual encounter then. And I know a few friends of mine who at least said they've had had sex. But then.. I grew up in a country where the laws reguarding the sexual contact of teenagers and adults are a bit less strict than in the USA. I think, in germany, where I grew up, a 15 year old boy who had consentual sex with a 20 year old pornstar would get this response from any member of the law: "Lucky bastard"
-------------------- ~Reality, the refuge of those who fail in RPGs~ aka Darkfist Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Posts: 334 | From: Lancaster, Ohio | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: Nope, unlike consentual sex drugs ARE bad for the health.
Really? Then why do we typically look at 35 year old men who sleep with little high school girls as perverted child molesters?
And if it's healthy for a 15 year old boy to have sex with an adult woman, why not a 12 year old boy...or a ten year old boy. Most of those boys would really, really want it and consent just as willingly.
quote:But I think a 15 year old boy is usually old enough to know it better about sex. They are bodily ready and believe me.. I wouldnt have minded a sexual encounter then.
Yeah, I'm guessing you don't spend too much time around 15 year olds. Their not exactly famous for their rational decision making.
quote:And I know a few friends of mine who at least said they've had had sex.
Oh, well if you have friends who've said they had had sex...then by all means, let's make child sex legal.
quote:But then.. I grew up in a country where the laws reguarding the sexual contact of teenagers and adults are a bit less strict than in the USA. I think, in germany, where I grew up, a 15 year old boy who had consentual sex with a 20 year old pornstar would get this response from any member of the law: "Lucky bastard"
So? What impact does that have on legality? What does that have to do with the difference between right and wrong?
Where I grew up, a 15 year old boy who stole his parents car and took it for a joy ride would've gotten the "lucky bastard" response as well...as would a 15 year old boy who got someone to buy beer for him. Just because it's "cool" doesn't make it right.
-------------------- "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: Nope, unlike consentual sex drugs ARE bad for the health.
Really? Then why do we typically look at 35 year old men who sleep with little high school girls as perverted child molesters?
And if it's healthy for a 15 year old boy to have sex with an adult woman, why not a 12 year old boy...or a ten year old boy. Most of those boys would really, really want it and consent just as willingly.
While I'm not defending the actions of the young woman in this specific case I would like to point out that she was 20 so only 5 years older than the boy. In my opinion that does make a difference in a true "consensual" sexual encounter. And, incidentally, I would be pointing this out if the genders were reversed as well.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Meth? What the NFBSK are you talking about? I was reffering to the case of a 15 year old boy having consentual sex with a 20 year old pornstar, not about a "young high school girl that had sex with a 35 year old man", or whether we should make the whole child sex legal nor about a 12 year old boy having sex or a 15 year old boy stealing a car. Those are COMPLETELY different cases and scenarios, so to speak.
And in the case that we where actually discussing (remember.. 15 year old boy and 20 year old woman (who, if she would be the "victim" would most likely be called a 20 year old girl)) our opinions differ. This for that. And no, I dont have much experience with 15 year old, and those who are in that age and that I have contact with ARE generally mature enough.
And that is from me the end of the discussion with you. End of Transmission.
-------------------- ~Reality, the refuge of those who fail in RPGs~ aka Darkfist Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Posts: 334 | From: Lancaster, Ohio | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: Meth? What the NFBSK are you talking about? I was reffering to the case of a 15 year old boy having consentual sex with a 20 year old pornstar, not about a "young high school girl that had sex with a 35 year old man",
It was not consentual sex, Rob D, because a 15 year old is a minor, and therefore not legally able to give consent.
quote:or whether we should make the whole child sex legal nor about a 12 year old boy having sex or a 15 year old boy stealing a car. Those are COMPLETELY different cases and scenarios, so to speak.
Both the 12 year old boy and the OP scenarios are about statutory rape. How are they "completely different"?
quote:And in the case that we where actually discussing (remember.. 15 year old boy and 20 year old woman (who, if she would be the "victim" would most likely be called a 20 year old girl)) our opinions differ. This for that.
I don't undertand your point here.
quote:And no, I dont have much experience with 15 year old, and those who are in that age and that I have contact with ARE generally mature enough.
Really? And how, exactly, are you able to determine if 15 year old children are mature enough to have sex with adults?
quote:And that is from me the end of the discussion with you. End of Transmission.
Gee, that's too bad. Your contributions so far have been so useful.
-------------------- "You better respect the Rap or the Rap won't respect you." Ledatru Posts: 1141 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Why could she just wait a few month until he was 16 years old and then have all the sex they wanted legally.
Posts: 597 | From: Bellingham, WA | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: Meth? What the NFBSK are you talking about? I was reffering to the case of a 15 year old boy having consentual sex with a 20 year old pornstar, not about a "young high school girl that had sex with a 35 year old man", or whether we should make the whole child sex legal nor about a 12 year old boy having sex or a 15 year old boy stealing a car. Those are COMPLETELY different cases and scenarios, so to speak.
Actually, both of us were referencing the act of an adult having sexual contact with a child. Why is fifteen different than fourteen or twelve? It's not consensual sex if a child is involved.
-------------------- "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: And that is from me the end of the discussion with you. End of Transmission.
My first prediction of 2006: *drumroll*******
Rob D will not be here long.
-------------------- "The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)
"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus) Posts: 2658 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
When I saw she was 20 I was just about to take her side, thinking the "child" was probably a teenager not much younger. Well I was almost right, but 5 years seems like pretty a big different at that age (That's a third of his age after all). Of course when I read the drug part I lost all simpathy for her.
Posts: 2352 | From: California | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Wizard of Yendor: When I saw she was 20 I was just about to take her side, thinking the "child" was probably a teenager not much younger. Well I was almost right, but 5 years seems like pretty a big different at that age (That's a third of his age after all). Of course when I read the drug part I lost all simpathy for her.
Yep, same here. I've known some very immature 20 yr olds and some very mature 15 yr olds so that part of it, well, I was prepared to reserve judgement -- everything else though kinda stacked the deck.
I do have a feeling though that the boy was not led down the garden path by this girl but rather is now using the circumstances to his advantage to reduce his parents righteous indignation at his actions and deflect their ire towards her instead.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: Meth? What the NFBSK are you talking about? I was reffering to the case of a 15 year old boy having consentual sex with a 20 year old pornstar, not about a "young high school girl that had sex with a 35 year old man", or whether we should make the whole child sex legal nor about a 12 year old boy having sex or a 15 year old boy stealing a car. Those are COMPLETELY different cases and scenarios, so to speak.
Actually, both of us were referencing the act of an adult having sexual contact with a child. Why is fifteen different than fourteen or twelve? It's not consensual sex if a child is involved.
Technically then, why is a 15 years and 280 days old person different to a 16 year old?
Posts: 147 | From: Queensland Australia | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: And that is from me the end of the discussion with you. End of Transmission.
My first prediction of 2006: *drumroll*******
Rob D will not be here long.
Dont count on that. I just know when to shut up in a certain threat. This dodo will stay a little longer on the forums, though.
And I know people think I am strange and that my customs are weird. That doesnt bother me, as I think the same about some people as well.
-------------------- ~Reality, the refuge of those who fail in RPGs~ aka Darkfist Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Posts: 334 | From: Lancaster, Ohio | Registered: Dec 2005
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later
posted
quote:Originally posted by Monkster:
quote:Originally posted by Methuselah:
quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: Meth? What the NFBSK are you talking about? I was reffering to the case of a 15 year old boy having consentual sex with a 20 year old pornstar, not about a "young high school girl that had sex with a 35 year old man", or whether we should make the whole child sex legal nor about a 12 year old boy having sex or a 15 year old boy stealing a car. Those are COMPLETELY different cases and scenarios, so to speak.
Actually, both of us were referencing the act of an adult having sexual contact with a child. Why is fifteen different than fourteen or twelve? It's not consensual sex if a child is involved.
Technically then, why is a 15 years and 280 days old person different to a 16 year old?
If one accepts that there should be laws against having sex with children, and I'm fairly confident everyone in their right mind does, then one must by necessity decide a point at which one is or is not having sex with a child.
Of course 16 is an arbitrary line in the sand, but a line in the sand must be drawn, surely. How else to you propose to define sexual maturity if not by an age of majority? Simply physically? Or by some sort of licensing system where teenagers have to face an interview panel before they're given permission to have sex?
That could work, actually. But it might be awful expensive. Oh, and probably some sort of grotesque invasion of privacy.
-------------------- This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down. Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo:
quote:Originally posted by Roadie4JCM:
quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: And that is from me the end of the discussion with you. End of Transmission.
My first prediction of 2006: *drumroll*******
Rob D will not be here long.
Dont count on that. I just know when to shut up in a certain threat. This dodo will stay a little longer on the forums, though.
And I know people think I am strange and that my customs are weird. That doesnt bother me, as I think the same about some people as well.
My point, Rob, was that this is a dialogue - not a Rob-o-logue. If you post here, and refuse to participate in give-and-take and feedback, you'll find you won't stay long. Welcome!
ETA: Spelling.
-------------------- "The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)
"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus) Posts: 2658 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo:
quote:Originally posted by Roadie4JCM:
quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: And that is from me the end of the discussion with you. End of Transmission.
My first prediction of 2006: *drumroll*******
Rob D will not be here long.
Dont count on that. I just know when to shut up in a certain threat. This dodo will stay a little longer on the forums, though.
And I know people think I am strange and that my customs are weird. That doesnt bother me, as I think the same about some people as well.
My point, Rob, was that this is a dialogue - not a Rob-o-logue. If you post here, and refuse to participate in give-and-take and feedback, you'll find you won't stay long. Welcome!
ETA: Spelling.
On the other hand there is something to be said for knowing when to give up. Perhaps it doesn't need to be announced - but haven't we all backed away from a thread or from a particular "conversation" here at snopes when it became obvious it was leading nowhere and our blood pressure was, perhaps, rising to dangerous levels? I certainly know I have - and more than once or twice!
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Sure, Christie. I think it's the whole announcement thing, and the finality of the "End of Transmission" that got me. It was just missing the
Speaking of backing away...I'll go take some Valium now, and chill.
-------------------- "The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)
"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus) Posts: 2658 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo:
quote:Originally posted by Roadie4JCM:
quote:Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo: And that is from me the end of the discussion with you. End of Transmission.
My first prediction of 2006: *drumroll*******
Rob D will not be here long.
Dont count on that. I just know when to shut up in a certain threat. This dodo will stay a little longer on the forums, though.
And I know people think I am strange and that my customs are weird. That doesnt bother me, as I think the same about some people as well.
Dude, use spellcheck. You are not a Dodo. Consensual sex is LEGAL consensual sex only when all participants are of legal age. Consensual sex can be harmful. Or are sexually transmitted diseases no longer around? This is not Germany. This is the United States. Which Germany did you grow up in? West, or East? Am I correct in assuming West? While teens below legal age may want sex, that doesn't mean that it is okay. That is a job for masturbation.
-------------------- I can't believe it's not Square! Posts: 3147 | From: W-S, North Carolina | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
So, in a hopefully more OT move, I'll ask: are there enough significant differences in males and females at 15 years of age, generally, to warrant any discrimination based on sex in our laws about sex and consent?
And also, what psychological ways is sex before the age of consent harmful to development (as Methuselah puts it)?
Sorry, I lost it at 19 so I don't have a first-hand perspective on this
-------------------- No, not *that* Commander Taco Posts: 180 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2005
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later
posted
quote:Originally posted by Christie: haven't we all backed away from a thread or from a particular "conversation" here at snopes when it became obvious it was leading nowhere and our blood pressure was, perhaps, rising to dangerous levels?
Not me. I wouldn't be interested in that sort of thing at all.
-------------------- This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down. Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Well, I don't know the legal terms in the US, but here this particular case would fall under "détournement de mineur" (which more or less translates into "seducing an underage person")- quite a serious offense, but not a crime, though. We tend to reserve the concept of "child rape" to much nastier things that will get one jailed for many, many years.
If I were the boy's father, however, I'd be quite furious, too.
-------------------- Desperate, but not serious. Posts: 689 | From: Confoederatio Helvetica | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Major D. Saster: Well, I don't know the legal terms in the US, but here this particular case would fall under "détournement de mineur" (which more or less translates into "seducing an underage person")- quite a serious offense, but not a crime, though. We tend to reserve the concept of "child rape" to much nastier things that will get one jailed for many, many years.
If I were the boy's father, however, I'd be quite furious, too.
Here in TN, there are three charges that are usually levied in this type of incident:
"Sex with a minor" and "statuory rape" and "rape"
Sex with a minor - I can't find the exact definition according to TN law, but I know somone who was charged with this, and the two following crimes.
Statutory rape is sex with someone more than 4 years younger than the person, and the victim is between 13 and 17 years old. (less than 13 is "rape of a child")
Rape is "forcible" or "unlawful" sex of any kind, so, as defined, it's an additional "generic" charge they can slap on for any kind of illegal sexual act.
Regarding Statutory rape, I can't seem to find anything in the (TN) law that makes it illegal for a 19 YO to have sex with a 17 YO (IE: not more than 4 years older) but I'm pretty sure it is. It may fall under "sex with a minor, which I cannot seem to find). ETA: doesn't relate to the OP, since the difference was 5 years, and not in TN anyway.
-------------------- Every time I see a good looking woman, I think, "0oooh. There's another one I'll never have!"
Corvette. The louder you scream, the faster I'll go. Posts: 1820 | From: Memphis, TN | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I'm not sure that the fact that it was "only" a 5-year difference in age makes a difference in the consensual sex part. What about an 18-yr old and a 13-yr old? 15 and 10? At what point does 5 years make a difference?
-------------------- Back in the days before electricity, we were forced to watch TV by candlelight. Posts: 229 | From: Paoli, PA | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by NobbyNobbs: I'm not sure that the fact that it was "only" a 5-year difference in age makes a difference in the consensual sex part. What about an 18-yr old and a 13-yr old? 15 and 10? At what point does 5 years make a difference?
It depends on "who" the difference is made to. To an individual, I guess it depends on what you see as "more immoral."
According to TN law (which isn't particularly relevant in this case, I only use it as an example), 4 years or more is one of the determining factors, but there also seems to be a distinction to indicate "under 13" means child, so I'd guess there would be a stiffer penalty for a 15 YO with an 11 YO than 17 and 13, simply because of the "under 13" thing, as far as the law goes.
ETA: According to the facts of the OP, had it happened in TN, the woman would apparently have been charged with "statutory rape" rather than "rape of a child" based on definition of the terms.
-------------------- Every time I see a good looking woman, I think, "0oooh. There's another one I'll never have!"
Corvette. The louder you scream, the faster I'll go. Posts: 1820 | From: Memphis, TN | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Commander Taco: So, in a hopefully more OT move, I'll ask: are there enough significant differences in males and females at 15 years of age, generally, to warrant any discrimination based on sex in our laws about sex and consent?
And also, what psychological ways is sex before the age of consent harmful to development (as Methuselah puts it)?
Sorry, I lost it at 19 so I don't have a first-hand perspective on this
Do you live in a state where the age of majority is different for males and females? I am not going to say it's "fair" if you are, but if you do, my only theory regarding it would be that unlike males, females can get pregnant. This is not to say males don't have repercussions from consensual sex or even pregnancy, but unlike a male, the female is the one experiencing it, has to make the choices regarding it, has to deal with the lifetime ramifications, et cetera.
If you want to talk about your double standards, until fairly recently there were no statutory rape charges for grown women and young boys at all here in Maine. Under 13 was considered child molestation or rape of a minor, but any boy over 13 could have sex with a woman of any age (over 13) and there was nothing the law would do to the woman. I forget which case changed this law, but I remember being shocked and fascinated by it. Apparently, the law is archaic and a throwback to the days when a 13 year old boy was considered a man and able to sleep with whoever he wants to, which girls have to be protected for marriage. Because Maine doesn't have many women-with-boys statutory cases in precedence, the law stood.
-------------------- “I really feel like this is part of my life's work....It's part of what I want to do with my time here....So if I can make a difference at all by talking openly about myself, I'm glad.” - Anthony Rapp, Without You, pp. 206-207 Posts: 592 | From: Kenduskeag, ME | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by A Guy Named Goo: Until fairly recently there were no statutory rape charges for grown women and young boys at all here in Maine. Under 13 was considered child molestation or rape of a minor, but any boy over 13 could have sex with a woman of any age (over 13) and there was nothing the law would do to the woman.
[rambling a little] I'm trying to figure out something similar with TN law. (I already stated this, but) I found a law that says it's illegal to have sex with someone who is under 18, if that person is more than 4 years younger (statury rape) and a law that says it's illegal to have sex with someone under 13 (rape of a child), but I can't seem to find where it says it's strictly illegal to have sex with someone under 18.
So, it tends to make me think that 20/16 would be legal, but 21/16 would not be.
I also stated earlier that I knew someone that had been charged with rape, statutory rape, and sex with a minor, but it's possible it was "rape of a child" instead of "sex with a minor" as she was under 13 at the time.
-------------------- Every time I see a good looking woman, I think, "0oooh. There's another one I'll never have!"
Corvette. The louder you scream, the faster I'll go. Posts: 1820 | From: Memphis, TN | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Commander Taco: So, in a hopefully more OT move, I'll ask: are there enough significant differences in males and females at 15 years of age, generally, to warrant any discrimination based on sex in our laws about sex and consent?
I would say the main reason for the difference is pregnancy and society. The pregnancy one is obvious. The society is probably based on the "fact" that guys always want sex, so an adult woman is not seducing an underage boy. But we all know that gals are pure and innocent, so an adult male must have seduced/manipulated the underage girl.
quote:And also, what psychological ways is sex before the age of consent harmful to development (as Methuselah puts it)?
I would guess several things. One would be that the the underage partner might fixate/obsess with the adult, possibly damaging future relationships. For example, is Mary Kay Letourneau's student/lover marrying her because he loves her or because he has fixated on her? Another would be that immature people are less able to resist undue influence. I am reminded of the teacher that (tried/did?) to get her students to kill her husband in exchange for sex.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Commander Taco: [qb] [QUOTE]And also, what psychological ways is sex before the age of consent harmful to development (as Methuselah puts it)?
I would guess several things. One would be that the the underage partner might fixate/obsess with the adult, possibly damaging future relationships. For example, is Mary Kay Letourneau's student/lover marrying her because he loves her or because he has fixated on her? Another would be that immature people are less able to resist undue influence. I am reminded of the teacher that (tried/did?) to get her students to kill her husband in exchange for sex.
Those reasons, and also the fact that adults who are seeking a relationship with a minor are often seeking control, not a truly consensual engagement. There are differences in power, social, legal, and sometimes physical, between an adult and an adolescent. People who seek sex and/or a relationship with an adolescent want to exploit that.
This reason is, I think, the most important one. Relationships built around power differentials are not healthy relationships, regardless of gender. Added to that is the fact that women, on the whole, are accorded less power by our culture. This might explain why we react more to men having sex with minor females than to women having sex with minor males. In the latter case, the differences in power are a bit less severe than in the former.
IMHO, both are problimatic, and both should be illegal
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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