quote:Originally posted by BlueStar: "We" is spelled right, they must have had some help from their CO.
ZING!
-------------------- Mr. Sagan did not go too fars, If you just took the time to scan its, You'd count billions and billions of stars, And billions and billions of planets. Posts: 332 | From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Jan 2004
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Is it just me, or is this story completely making up the "troops' position" on Kerry's remarks?
I don't see it as expressing displeasure with Kerry at all - more as taking the piss out of both Bush and the people who are making a big deal over a slight slip-of-the-tongue which was since explained as having nothing to do with the troops. That's just my interpretation, though. I have no idea whether it's correct because nobody seems to have asked the people who made it.
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Hmm, I know nothing about The New York Post, but this strikes me as somewhat disingenuous:
quote:...witty response to his bungled "joke" about their education hit home in the United States.
Emphasis mine. Did the Post not understand the nature of the joke or did they choose to pretend not to understand?
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Sylvanz: Hmm, I know nothing about The New York Post, but this strikes me as somewhat disingenuous:
quote:...witty response to his bungled "joke" about their education hit home in the United States.
Emphasis mine. Did the Post not understand the nature of the joke or did they choose to pretend not to understand?
P&LL, Syl
Or did the troops not know that it was just a joke? They responded before the damage control could begin. I accept that he was trying to joke, but I also noticed that Kerry wasn't smiling. Maybe that's just his way.
-------------------- Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. Posts: 109 | From: Inola, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by snopes:
quote:I have no idea whether it's correct because nobody seems to have asked the people who made it.
OK, so the Post's position on that is fair, then...
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote: But it emerged yesterday that Kerry has made similar comments in the past.
When he ran for Congress in 1972, he said he was against an all-volunteer Army - like the one we have now - because it would be full of lowlife thugs who would be more likely to be involved in "war crimes."
"I am convinced a volunteer Army would be an Army of the poor and the black and the brown," Kerry wrote in a candidate questionnaire to a Massachusetts peace group.
"We must not repeat the travesty of the inequities present during Vietnam. I also fear having a professional Army that views the perpetuation of war crimes as simply 'doing its job.' "
That's a very neat conflation of two distinct fears into one totally unconnected with what the man actually said.
Although I have to admit that considering it's a Murdoch paper, the New York Post is a lot more detailed and serious than his British tabloids, I do wonder: where is the sheikh offering Kerry money? Where is the grumble in sexy lingerie? Why is there no mention of David and Victoria Beckham?
If this is American journalism, I weep for my grandchildren, I really do.
-------------------- Cogito ergo sum, non sum qualis eram. Putting Descartes before the Horace every time. Posts: 377 | From: East Anglia, UK | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I have to admit that I have a REALLY hard time interpreting Kerry's comment as anything but a slam on the troops. The quote that was supposedly scripted seems really contrived to me, and his wasn't even close.
posted
He missed out one word, how is that "not even close"?
-------------------- "The United States Government: significantly less cruel and sadistic than the Taliban." - Dara Posts: 1289 | From: Aberdeen University, Aberdeen, UK | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by BringTheNoise: He missed out one word, how is that "not even close"?
The way it was said: "You know education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."
The way it was scripted: "Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren’t smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."
I count lots more than one word there.
Even if you take the critical portions "you get stuck in Iraq" vs. "You get us stuck in a war in Iraq" that's a big difference.
And the original scripted 'joke' seems a bit contrived to me, like they had to hasten to create something that was concievable after-the-fact.
posted
So rehcsif, you're being given the two following scenarios: 1. Right before an important election, a politician deliberately makes a slam on the sacred cow of US troops, completely out of context and for no apparent reason. 2. Right before an important election, a politician attempts to make a slam on the president's Iraq policy, which he has slammed multiple times before, including a few seconds earlier. Instead of saying "get us stuck," he slips and says "get stuck."
And you are having a REALLY hard time seeing the latter as more likely than the former?
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BringTheNoise: He missed out one word, how is that "not even close"?
The way it was said: "You know education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."
The way it was scripted: "Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren’t smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."
I count lots more than one word there.
Even if you take the critical portions "you get stuck in Iraq" vs. "You get us stuck in a war in Iraq" that's a big difference.
And the original scripted 'joke' seems a bit contrived to me, like they had to hasten to create something that was concievable after-the-fact.
-Tim
He actually said "Just ask President Bush" the first time. Although it was edited from many news reports.
-------------------- "The United States Government: significantly less cruel and sadistic than the Taliban." - Dara Posts: 1289 | From: Aberdeen University, Aberdeen, UK | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Flowy Chloe: So rehcsif, you're being given the two following scenarios: 1. Right before an important election, a politician deliberately makes a slam on the sacred cow of US troops, completely out of context and for no apparent reason. 2. Right before an important election, a politician attempts to make a slam on the president's Iraq policy, which he has slammed multiple times before, including a few seconds earlier. Instead of saying "get us stuck," he slips and says "get stuck."
And you are having a REALLY hard time seeing the latter as more likely than the former?
At best, it was a really bad attempt at a slam. Taking something that general ("You don't study") and concluding something that specific ("You'll get the country stuck in Iraq") doesn't make a lot of sense. On the other hand the more general conclusion "you'll end up in Iraq, due to lack of options" makes a lot more logical sense.
I don't you can call this is "completely out of context", both for John Kerry, who, as has been pointed out, has said stuff like this before, and also compared to the supposedly 'real' quote.
posted
But what is it you think he thought he would gain from slamming the troops right before an election? IOW, why would anyone in his right mind script something like that (and he had a script; he keeps looking at it in the video)? That seems to be a much larger hurdle to explain than that the slam wasn't a particularly logical one.
And where has he "said stuff like this before"?
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Well, you know Chloe. It's like Al Gore saying he invented the internet. Everybody knows Kerry has said this stuff; it's almost like you expect proof and cites and stuff...geeze!
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Kindly note Billy Biggles' post above, Chloe. There IS history there.
-------------------- Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...
Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it. Posts: 5622 | From: Jax, Florida | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Kindly note Billy Biggles' post above, Chloe. There IS history there.
Noted Malruhn and my comment stands. I *gasp* actually saw it the first time around.
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Kindly note Billy Biggles' post above, Chloe. There IS history there.
Noted Malruhn and my comment stands. I *gasp* actually saw it the first time around.
P&LL, Syl
You asked for "proof and stuff". One such site had already been provided. Others have been readilly available in news articles and commentary since the "Kerry episode" first broke last week. If you choose to ignore them, it isn't our fault.
quote: When he ran for Congress in 1972, he said he was against an all-volunteer Army - like the one we have now - because it would be full of lowlife thugs who would be more likely to be involved in "war crimes."
Now, why is it that 'war crimes' is in quotes and lowlife thugs is not? Did he actually say "lowlife thugs," or not? When did he say this? Under what circumstances?
quote: "I am convinced a volunteer Army would be an Army of the poor and the black and the brown," Kerry wrote in a candidate questionnaire to a Massachusetts peace group.
This is the similar stuff? Was the above quotes about lowlife thugs a poor paraphrase of this remark, which seems absolutely logical? Are you suggesting that poor, black and brown = uneducated? That seems an extremely dodgy suggestion to make.
quote: "We must not repeat the travesty of the inequities present during Vietnam. I also fear having a professional Army that views the perpetuation of war crimes as simply 'doing its job.' "
How is this even vaguely similar? Again, where has Kerry suggested that troops are not very smart?
Further, I see nobody's addressed the first part of my post, about why Kerry would say such a thing right before an election. Good thing I wasn't holding my breath.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
So, just for the fun of it, I googled for "John Kerry" and "lowlife thugs."
Anyone want to guess what I find? 16 distinct hits. Five of them are the exact same quote "full of lowlife thugs who would be more likely to be involved in 'war crimes.'" Odd punctuation intact in each one. None of the others have "lowlife thugs" being said by Kerry. So whose words are they? Curiouser and curiouser, eh, what?
Because it seems to me that if Kerry *didn't* say them, they were written by someone with the express intent of smearing him. And sadly, leapt upon for that purpose by people who post to a messageboard ostensibly dedicated to separating truth from fiction. What a shame.
ETA that I'm not certainly including Billy Biggles among them, as I'm perfectly capable of reading the tone of his post and his critique of the "quotation" he provided. Others, apparently and hilariously, thought he was providing ammunition for their cause.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:You asked for "proof and stuff". One such site had already been provided. Others have been readilly available in news articles and commentary since the "Kerry episode" first broke last week. If you choose to ignore them, it isn't our fault.
No, I disagree "proof" has not been offered as Chloe already pointed out. Innuendo is not "proof." When you show me where Kerry has been actually quoted, with a reliable citation and not one that needs gymnastic "interpretation," as saying soldiers are stupid and uneducated then you will have provided proof.
Oh and by the way as for me looking for the "articles and news stories?" The onus is on you and whomever else claim that he's said "similar" things before to show proof that he has said such things.
It never ceases to amaze me the lengths some will go to to impugn the character of a war hero. That is, as long as he's a Liberal war hero, though I assume some think that is an oxymoron.
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Flowy Chloe: Further, I see nobody's addressed the first part of my post, about why Kerry would say such a thing right before an election. Good thing I wasn't holding my breath.
I'm not sure what you want us to say. Unless I can get inside Mr. Kerry's head (it's big enough ) it's hard for me to speculate on his motives, or whether he really thought about the ramifications of it, or what not.
It's possible you're right, and he just botched the quote. It's also possible that he meant it the way it came out, and didn't calculate the ramifications. But my original point was, others earlier in the thread were saying it was obvious that he meant it as an attack on the president. I didn't find it 'obvious', especially before hearing the 'scripted' quote.
posted
Perhaps you didn't find it an obvious jab at the president because you prefer to believe the more incredible scenario of a decorated war veteran insulting the troops' collective intelligence?
I just cannot comprehend the need of those on the right to smear John Kerry. He isn't running for president anymore. Maybe this is in case he should dare try again? Just to keep him in his place? I swear if the guy ran into a burning building to save little old ladies and orphans someone...Rove? "Swiftboaters"? would find a way to smear him for it. It really is quite disgusting.
Oh and I'm still awaiting the "proof" that Kerry hates soldiers and/or thinks they're stupid. I too won't hold my breath while waiting. Tum tee tum tum tum.
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Would any of his anti-war rhetoric from the late '60's do? That is NOT how you honor troops, by undercutting them as they do the jobs...
Or would you prefer his tossing what he alleged at the time were HIS medals into the symbolic trash-pile... only to be dusted off again when it appeared that he needed the additional credibility of being a war "hero"?
I think his verifiable quotes to the senate are good enough to impugn his character and sully his stance on the military for ME at least. Of course calling the military as a whole, "war criminals" might not register as being clear enough as a denouncement of the military.
-------------------- Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...
Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it. Posts: 5622 | From: Jax, Florida | Registered: Nov 2003
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later
posted
quote:Originally posted by Malruhn: Would any of his anti-war rhetoric from the late '60's do? That is NOT how you honor troops, by undercutting them as they do the jobs
So you've moved the goalposts from "hates soldiers/ thinks soldiers are stupid" to "opposed Vietnam War," then? Don't you think that's somewhat intellectually dishonest?
quote:Or would you prefer his tossing what he alleged at the time were HIS medals into the symbolic trash-pile... only to be dusted off again when it appeared that he needed the additional credibility of being a war "hero"?
Once again, this is evidence neither that he hates soldiers nor that he thinks they are stupid. It's evidence that he thought the Vietnam War was a terrible and unjustifiable conflict. I'm amazed that you find this such a controversial viewpoint.
quote:I think his verifiable quotes to the senate are good enough to impugn his character and sully his stance on the military for ME at least. Of course calling the military as a whole, "war criminals" might not register as being clear enough as a denouncement of the military.
He did not call the military as a whole 'war criminals.' He reported on what other soldiers told him they had done. Whether or not the Winter Soldier Investigations were your cup of tea or not, it is easily verifiable that soldiers returning from Vietnam made these claims to investigators including John Kerry.
You know, Malruhn, there was a time when you were a better poster than this. While I rarely agreed with what you had to say, I was never distrustful of you, nor did I automatically assume that you were twisting the argument or being misleading in order to make your point.
You've really damaged your credibility here, though. Not just with your recent and infamous assertion that "some people think that asking the same question more than once is torture," then ignobly running away from the thread in which you made the assertion when asked to verify it, but in repeating this famous canard here. You know this isn't true, we've been through this again and again and again on this board.
Why are you doing it?
-------------------- This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down. Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
When I saw the presentations before the House, I heard what he said... and it took several re-explanations AFTER the fact, in some cases several YEARS after the fact to get the "truth" heard.
Sorry, but if you make a speech before congress, you will be taken at face value... no "do overs".
His comments were in general about the military (Army, specifically), and the original explanation he gave about the medals was that he didn't want to be reminded of the war, and he wasn't a "hero".
Now, suddenly he wants to capitalize on the status.
I have no respect for him.
-------------------- Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...
Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it. Posts: 5622 | From: Jax, Florida | Registered: Nov 2003
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later
posted
quote:Originally posted by Malruhn: When I saw the presentations before the House, I heard what he said... and it took several re-explanations AFTER the fact, in some cases several YEARS after the fact to get the "truth" heard.
I gave you a link to his statement. He simply doesn't say what you say he says. He repeats confessions that were made to him, as opposed to making allegations of his own. Incidentally, according to your profile, you would have been eight years old at the time of Kerry's presentation to the house. While it's not entirely impossible that you would have been avidly watching Congressional hearings at that age, it does strike me as somewhat unlikely. Like, for example, the idea that some people think that asking the same question more than once is "torture."
quote:Sorry, but if you make a speech before congress, you will be taken at face value... no "do overs".
But you're not taking his statement at face value. You're twisting and manipulating his statement to say things that he just didn't say.
quote:His comments were in general about the military (Army, specifically), and the original explanation he gave about the medals was that he didn't want to be reminded of the war, and he wasn't a "hero
I can't find a cite for this, but I find it difficult to believe that those are the reasons he gave for throwing away his medals. Given that he was playing an active role in an anti-Vietnam War veterans organisation, it strikes me as strange that 'not wanting to be reminded of the war' should be the reason he gave. If you're sure that that's what he said, then please produce a cite.
-------------------- This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down. Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I suppose it's time I weighed in on this issue. Those are members of my brigade in that photo, I've trained and served alongside them for over a year now, and while I'm occasionally exasperated with our higher headquarters I do know they're good hearted people trying their best to do their job as they perceive it. Kind of like John Kerry. He NFBSK'ed up, that's all there is to it. No one is politically suicidal enough to make such a statement baldly.
Senator Kerry for all his faults, and there are several, is a decorated veteran and volunteered to serve when he didn't have to. I respect him for that, and although it may have been abbreviated I do respect his service.
I think it was one of the dumbest mis-statements ever made in the history of American politics, but I don't honestly believe he meant to say what he said. However, he's going to pay the price for his stumbling speech by being the butt of jokes for awhile to come, and the loss of some political capital for awhile as well.
I hope his staff takes note of this incident and prepares him a bit more thoroughly for future appearances.
I may not be educated, and most who know me well could never accuse me of being overly intelligent, but I think I have enough common sense not to let partisanship cloud my judgement.
CannonFodder, coming to you live still stuck in Iraq.
-------------------- "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die." Posts: 2776 | From: LSA Anaconda, Iraq | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by CannonFodder Global Trotter: ...I do know they're good hearted people trying their best to do their job as they perceive it.
This'll be topic number two when I see you in person...
-------------------- "Who needs the Bible? I've got this magic 8-ball." Posts: 354 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Rehcsif: Originally posted by Flowy Chloe: Further, I see nobody's addressed the first part of my post, about why Kerry would say such a thing right before an election. Good thing I wasn't holding my breath.
quote: I'm not sure what you want us to say.
Well, you're positing that a certain extraordinarily unlikely event occurred, and insisting that this is more likely that a slip of the tongue. Surely you must also posit some sort of motive for this event.
quote: Unless I can get inside Mr. Kerry's head (it's big enough ) it's hard for me to speculate on his motives, or whether he really thought about the ramifications of it, or what not.
He wrote a speech, or someone wrote it for him. Are you really claiming that, in this speech, he made a deliberate shot at the troops right before an election, and it never occurred to him that this could be seen as somehow a bad thing?
quote: It's possible you're right, and he just botched the quote. It's also possible that he meant it the way it came out, and didn't calculate the ramifications.
Do you have any other evidence of a politician of his standing doing this sort of thing in a script? Not an improvised "macaca moment," but a deliberately scripted comment? Bceause you seem to see the most plausible interpretation of this event as "and then John Kerry temporarily lost his mind" rather than "and then John Kerry missed out a word." And to you, the first seems much more likely. Why is that?
quote: But my original point was, others earlier in the thread were saying it was obvious that he meant it as an attack on the president. I didn't find it 'obvious', especially before hearing the 'scripted' quote.
Perhaps the lesson should be to pay attention before one comments, then.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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