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Author Topic: Helicopter shooting
Demonic Matt
I Saw Three Shipments


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http://youtube.com/watch?v=iVu8JwggKPk

NSFBSK

The video isn't what I'm doubting as real, but one guy claims that the people were farmers, while the person who posted says they are terrorists.


Where is the video from and what is it showing?

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TabbyCa
A Rolling Stone Gathers No Kate Moss


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Undetermined...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/apache.asp

Longer video from Google

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-2206581003385470277&q=US+Helicopter

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Hans Off
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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I think the video is legit, but out of context you cannot tell who the targets were.


On a lighter note, a link thrown up at the close of the video gives this rather amusing montage of air-drop mishaps (turn the sound on ant watch listen out for the last scene....

S-M-R-T

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"British English speakers point to Americans adding more syllables so that they can make even more noise without actually saying anything." Llewtrah


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DesertRat
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Based on the FLIR footage alone, without context, it's easy to question the identity of the targets.

However, without getting into classified detail, the current ROE are very restrictive concerning any kind of fires, especially concerning issue of positive ID.

It is highly unlikely that those pilots were cleared to fire without outside corroboration and positive ID. My money's on a clean kill.

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High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler

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NovaSS
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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I have watched this VIDEO frame by frame for a long time.

My take is the first person running across the field is a women. she meets the man on the tractor and he leans over to give her a quick kiss, then all hell brakes lose.

Dont get me wrong, I a vet and have no problem putting a few ( hundred) rounds into to some one who deserves it. I just cant see the reason to open fire in this situation. Granted there may be more intel the pilots were privy too but with out an outside order to open fire I cant see the reason for this one.

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SantasHobbit
Frosty the Salesman


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We have discussed this before

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Angsty little hobbitssssses

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DesertRat
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
My take is the first person running across the field is a women. she meets the man on the tractor and he leans over to give her a quick kiss, then all hell brakes lose.
Uhhhhh..... no. Trust me.

And they weregiven clearance by higher to fire.

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High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler

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CannonFodder Global Trotter
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Whoever the pilots are we had our asses saved by Apache pilots Monday morning. If I were able here I'd by them all many beers.

The context of what leads up to the trigger pulling isn't available in this little snippet.

Don't attempt to render judgement based on the very limited information presented here.

Want to know some of the most comforting words in the world?

"6-1 this is Able 2-7. We're bingo fuel, but will remain overhead until more assets arrive on station. Hang on down there, more help is on the way."

--------------------
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Isn't that similar to the video of an Apache opening up on personell targets that circulated a while ago, raising concerns that those weapons are not allowed for personell targets (due to their large caliber)? I know some such rules exist, as the Sedish army bought Barrett M82's for "Mine clearing" for this specific reason, but I don't know the exact details. Someone who knows?

If such rules apply, then they should not have fired.

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/Troberg

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CannonFodder Global Trotter
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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There is no such rule. You may drop 155mm artillery, and 2000lb bombs on personnel.

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"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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As I understood it, which may be completely wrong, the rule applies to fire that directly targets specific persons. For instance, you can't use a 20 mm cannon to target individuals like in the video.

If you drop bombs or artillery, it's area suppression, not specific targets.

This may be a Swedish rule, but that doesn't explain the hullabaloo about the previous helicopter-fires-on-people video.

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/Troberg

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Hans Off
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by NovaSS:
[QBDont get me wrong, I a vet and have no problem putting a few ( hundred) rounds into to some one who deserves it. [/QB]

Bloody hell, remind me not to come to you the next time my cat needs a booster injection!


(sorry sorry sorry, couldn't resist)

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"British English speakers point to Americans adding more syllables so that they can make even more noise without actually saying anything." Llewtrah


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Groundhog
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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This video has been around for a while. I first recieved it about two years ago from a friend of mine. The version I have is over three minutes long and clearly shows the people planting weapons alongside the road, evidently in preparations for some sort of ambush they were planning. So, no, they were not farmers and were clearly up to no good.
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DesertRat
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Want to know some of the most comforting words in the world?

"6-1 this is Able 2-7. We're bingo fuel, but will remain overhead until more assets arrive on station. Hang on down there, more help is on the way."

You just motivated me more than you can possibly know.

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High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler

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xtargeeter
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
As I understood it, which may be completely wrong, the rule applies to fire that directly targets specific persons. For instance, you can't use a 20 mm cannon to target individuals like in the video.

If you drop bombs or artillery, it's area suppression, not specific targets.

This may be a Swedish rule, but that doesn't explain the hullabaloo about the previous helicopter-fires-on-people video.

I was in the U.S. military for 20 years. There is no such rule.
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Greg of Winter
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
As I understood it, which may be completely wrong, the rule applies to fire that directly targets specific persons. For instance, you can't use a 20 mm cannon to target individuals like in the video.

If you drop bombs or artillery, it's area suppression, not specific targets.

This may be a Swedish rule, but that doesn't explain the hullabaloo about the previous helicopter-fires-on-people video.

There's no such rule. Snopes really needs a page on the "you can't use a .50 caliber (or higher) gun on personnel"

I mean, why is it you can drop a 12,000 pound Daisy Cutter on someone's head but you can't shoot them with a .50 caliber machinegun?

I personally know a few A-10 Warthog pilots who were given either Distinguished Flying Crosses or Silver Stars for aiding Army ground units by mowing down entire companies of Iraqi troops with the A-10's mammoth 30mm gatling gun.

 -

Yes, that thing.

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Meanwhile, at stately Wayne Manor...

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I mean, why is it you can drop a 12,000 pound Daisy Cutter on someone's head but you can't shoot them with a .50 caliber machinegun?
You don't drop the Daisy Cutter on a person, you drop it on a structure. Sure, the people inside the structure is not going to like it one bit, but it's still the structure that's the target.

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/Troberg

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RangerDog
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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300 Winchester Super-Mag, .50 caliber, and 20mm have all been used as sniper rounds.

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Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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There's nothing to stop someone from trying to use a .50 caliber sniper rifle on human targets, though they are intended to be used on "larger" targets like non-armoured vehicles or flammable objects.

There was a sniper in Northern Ireland using just such a weapon (I believe it was a Barrett M82) against British soldiers wearing typical body armour and being killed instantly at ranges well in excess of 1,000 yards. The effects were devastating and got worldwide press attention. Then it suddenly stopped - though there was no big article about the guy being caught.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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Greg of Winter
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
I mean, why is it you can drop a 12,000 pound Daisy Cutter on someone's head but you can't shoot them with a .50 caliber machinegun?
You don't drop the Daisy Cutter on a person, you drop it on a structure. Sure, the people inside the structure is not going to like it one bit, but it's still the structure that's the target.
I can't say specifically if a Daisy Cutter was used, but I do know firsthand that B-52s have dropped entire racks of 500 lb MK-82 gravity bombs against massed Taliban troop formations in the barren regions of Afghanistan. There wasn't a single structure around for miles.

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Meanwhile, at stately Wayne Manor...

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Rob D / Blackwolf, the yule dodo
Deck the Malls


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quote:
We're bingo fuel, but will remain overhead until more assets arrive on station.
Hope THEY made it home safe too.

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~Reality, the refuge of those who fail in RPGs~
aka Darkfist Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I can't say specifically if a Daisy Cutter was used, but I do know firsthand that B-52s have dropped entire racks of 500 lb MK-82 gravity bombs against massed Taliban troop formations in the barren regions of Afghanistan. There wasn't a single structure around for miles.
But then it's area suppression.

As I said, I have no idea if such a ban exists and if it does, which countries it applies to, apart from Sweden. If it does, I got the impression that it was applied to the targeting of specific human targets. "I have him in my sights"-situations.

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/Troberg

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Delta-V
Xboxing Day


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There are only, as far as I can tell, 3 treaties that govern the type of ammunition that can be used against enemy combatants:

The Hague Convention of 1899: The contracting parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions

Not applicable here. This prohibits so-called 'dum-dum' bullets. It has also been interpreted to prohibit hollow-point bullets.


The Hague Convention of 1907: It is especially forbidden...To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.

Here's the one usually pointed to involving large-caliber rounds. Obviously, certain peace-loving segments of society thing that all war is unnecessary suffering. This is not the intent of the Hague Conventions, which spell out in the preamble that they recognize war will occur. The intent was to ban weapons beyond the normal range of armaments that might cause excessive wounding. The 30mm M789 HEDP round is no different from any other exploding round used in warfare before and after 1907. It kills and wounds by fragmentation. Nor is the .50 cal round mentioned here, or large calibers mentioned at all, for that matter.


Declaration Renouncing the Use, in Time of War, of Explosive Projectiles Under 400 Grammes Weight. Saint Petersburg, 1868: The Contracting Parties engage mutually to renounce, in case of war among themselves, the employment by their military or naval troops of any projectile of a weight below 400 grammes, which is either explosive or charged with fulminating or inflammable substances.

Ok, this does apply. The 30mm M789 HEDP is under 400g. This treaty, however, only applies to the 20 signing countries (7 of which no longer exist), and not the United States. Also note that the treaty bans these weapons "among themselves", but not against other countries. It would also affect many other weapons systems on the battlefield, and the signatories have themselves rendered it null and void by using countless weapons that fall under that category, from hand grenades to small cannon shells.

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"My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere

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CannonFodder Global Trotter
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Rob D / Blackwolf, the flying dodo:
quote:
We're bingo fuel, but will remain overhead until more assets arrive on station.
Hope THEY made it home safe too.
They did.

--------------------
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Delta-V:
There are only, as far as I can tell, 3 treaties that govern the type of ammunition that can be used against enemy combatants:

Plus the Second Lateran Council (1139), which banned the use of crossbows by Christians against Christians.

[fish]

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All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

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Delta-V
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:
Originally posted by Delta-V:
There are only, as far as I can tell, 3 treaties that govern the type of ammunition that can be used against enemy combatants:

Plus the Second Lateran Council (1139), which banned the use of crossbows by Christians against Christians.
Technically, it's not a treaty, it's a Papal Canon. And it banned archers as well as crossbowmen (or all missile weapons, depending on how you interpret it).

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"My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere

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Dreams of Thinking Machines
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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General question about large caliber explosive rounds: if an anti-armor round is used against a human will it actually explode as it passes through the person or will it explode when it hits the ground behind the person?

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Obi Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"
Anakin: "Um, isn't your last statement an absolute?"

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Delta-V
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by dreams of thinking machines:
General question about large caliber explosive rounds: if an anti-armor round is used against a human will it actually explode as it passes through the person or will it explode when it hits the ground behind the person?

That depends. Many modern anti-armor rounds don't explode. They contain a solid, subcaliber penetrator, usually of tungsten or depleted uranium. They're fast, and the penetrator wouldn't even slow down going through flesh or bone.

A traditional HEAT (High Explosive, Anti-Tank) round, I think, would likely explode if it hit bone. Not sure about soft tissue, probably varies between individual types. The plasma jet generated by the shaped charge is pretty localized in effect. Likewise a British HESH round may or may not explode (but it would be messy either way).

The Dual-Purpose round that the Apache uses (M789 HEDP) should explode on contact, as it's designed for use against both armor and personnel. It has a fragmentation effect as well as the plasma jet.

Of course, many Anti-Armor rounds are in the range of 105-125mm, so it's a moot point if it explodes or not when it hits a person.

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"My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere

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Sasquatch
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Actually, I doubt any normal HEAT type round would explode just hitting a person, there has to be a minimum level of resistance to set it off, you wouldn't want stuff like branches, camo net, etc to be able to detonate a shell intended for the vehicle behind it.

As a specific example, I can recall an instructional example used in the Army, where a general's car in Greece was attacked by the Black Hand terrorist group, and they actually hit the car twice with RPG rounds from a hillside when it was stopped at a traffic light, and the occupants lived mainly because it *wasn't* an armored vehicle. One round hit the roof, penetrated, and exited the far door, one hit the top of the trunk and exited the quarter panel. Both rounds blew up when they hit the pavement, but just punched a hole through the car's sheet metal.

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