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Author Topic: Jack the Ripper identified
Quttaus
I Saw Three Shipments


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The police officer who originally suggested Druitt as a suspect had most of his information wrong. Druitt was not a doctor (for example), he was a schoolteacher and lawyer. The officer also suggested Druitt was "sexually insane", but he destroyed all his documentation on Druitt, so there is no independent corroboration of that. Bottom line, there isn't any real reason to think Druitt is the Ripper.

I always thought the murders were interesting in the way they brought London to a screeching halt, like Son of Sam did in the 1970's to New York City.

Seaboe, you're very likely right, but here's hoping you're wrong. [Wink]

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"Hey! Let go of me before something horrible happens to me! OR ELSE!"
--Invader Zim

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Evil_eyes
We Three Blings


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I read a book a few years ago about JTR and for the life ofme I can't remember the name. In it however they made it seem like the killings didnt stop, just the killer moved to America. There were similarities between the killings but I can't remember much else.

I only read a few pages of Patricia Cornwell, I just couldnt get into it. According to others I didn't miss much.

I will try to do a search and see if I can find the book I am talking about, it was a huge book and actaully a very good read.

E_E

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"Taking all the pain I give you
Loving blindly in return
And I need you more than ever"
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Quttaus
I Saw Three Shipments


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Was it this book by any chance?

If so, was it any good? I have that one, but I haven't gotten to it yet.

--------------------
"Hey! Let go of me before something horrible happens to me! OR ELSE!"
--Invader Zim

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Evil_eyes
We Three Blings


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Sorry I don't think that one is it. I checked it out at the library, I will check the librarie's website though and get back to you.


ETA: Since I can't remember much about the book just bits and pieces. I recall reading that the murders happened near a church and I believe it was in California. I could be wrong on both accounts though. I wish I could remember more of the book it was very interesting to read a different theory on JtR.

--------------------
"Taking all the pain I give you
Loving blindly in return
And I need you more than ever"
WWW.Myspace.com/E_E2000

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Rivkah Chaya
I Saw Three Shipments


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First of all, Cornwell outright lied in at least one instance that I can think of off the top of my head: she said that Annie Chapman's (IIRC, it was Chapman-- might have been Polly Nichols) eyes were closed in her mortuary photo, and thus in drawing a figure that resembles her in one of his paintings with the eyes open, Sickert revealed that he had seen the victim before the mortuary worker closed her eyes. Well, in the photo in Cornwell's book, the print is very bad, and the eyes are in shadow. However, in the five or so other Ripper books I have, prints of the same photo show the victim's eyes clearly OPEN.

Cornwell is totally discredited for me.

As for Montague John Druitt-- he had recently been dismissed from a position as a teacher at a boys' school, under a suspicious cloud that probably had something to do with homosexuality. Until recently, homosexuality was considered evidence of deeper psychosis, therefore, homosexuality was considered entirely consistent with being a crazed killer. That, coupled with the fact that the murders stopped shortly after Druitt comitted suicide, made him a likely suspect to the police. However, now that it is known that gay serial killers are extremely unlikely to choose women victims, and that JTR, choosing women, was almost surely heterosexual, Druitt is no longer considered a likely suspect.

I'm a Jew, and I don't find anything particularly wrong with the police considering a Jewish suspect among others. I find it very interesting that the witness declined to identify Kosminski because he didn't want to be responsible for another Jew being executed. This is based on the Talmudic formula for examining witnesses, which I won't go into in detail-- just say that the English system of accepting the word of one witness clashes with the Jewish system of requiring several witnesses before a capital sentence can be passed. I doubt that Scotland Yard would know this, so if they fabricated the story about the Jewish witness who refused to testify against another Jew, it is a striking coincidence. Personally, I think the story is likely true. It's still possible the witness was mistaken, of course, and also possible that he DID see Kosminski with a Ripper victim just before her death, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is the killer.

JTR may have had some anatomical knowledge, but it doesn't follow that he had medical training. He may have been one of the thousands of professional slaughterers who worked in the East End at the time. (And if he had clothes bloody already from work, a little more blood from a victim wouldn't be so obvious.)

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HelloLlama
Jingle Bell Hock


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Enchanting eyes, was it by any chance The Bell Tower by Robert Graysmith?

That theory has been discounted pretty easily and Graysmith isn't always the most honest of writers. He is most famous for his books on Zodiac (a case that I have read up on extensively) and as riveting as those books are, they are riddled with errors and stuff that he just makes up. The connections he makes can sometimes defy logic.

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Felessan
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by The Rubber Chicken:
quote:
Patricia Cornwell got a hold of one of the Ripper letters and used the back of the stamp for DNA. However, the letter she used is a known hoax, even though she insist it was a genuine letter. All she was basically was able to prove was that Walter Sickert "may" have been one of about 40,000 Britons who wrote a hoax letter. JMO.
Yeah, that was one of the many things that killed me about Cornwell's book: at the beginning she makes the claim that, contrary to what most Ripperologists believe, the vast majority of the Ripper letters are real. Why? She never really says. She just thinks they were real. Well okay, she postulates a bunch of crap about all the places Sickert could have been to mail the letters from the hundreds of different locations, but as I am sure you know, it is flat-out speculation. And not even good speculation at that.

There is always the possibility that Jack the Ripper was simply one of the thousands of destitute people living in Whitechapel, and that the police never considered the right suspect.

Just curious, but what about the possibility that none of the Ripper suspects were actually the Ripper, and that he may be a completely unknown person who has been lost to history. Any thoughts?

I think it was Donald Rumbelow who wrote something to the effect, "On Judgement Day, when all things are made known, the question will be asked: "Who was Jack the Ripper? And he will step forward and say his name. And there will be a loud chorus of "Who?"".

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You fool! That's not a warrior, that's a banana!
- a surreal moment in a role-playing game

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Gale
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Enchanting_eyes:
I read a book a few years ago about JTR and for the life ofme I can't remember the name. In it however they made it seem like the killings didnt stop, just the killer moved to America. There were similarities between the killings but I can't remember much else.

I only read a few pages of Patricia Cornwell, I just couldnt get into it. According to others I didn't miss much.


And some people think he started in the US first:
Austin Axe Murders
The Servant Girl Annihilator

I used to read Patricia Cornwell, but as time went by, her plots just got more and more annoying.

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medtchva
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker:
I can say flat out that I think that mystery writer (I've forgotten her name--she writes about the Florida Forensic Dr.) is crazy, though. Her candidate is about as likely as the Prince, IMO.

Seaboe

Actually, I think the Kay Scarpetta stories are set in Virginia.

Scarpetta starts out in Richmond, VA and then moves to Florida after problems.
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DrMerkwuerdig
I Saw Three Shipments


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My vote is on Joseph Barnett. He fits the physical description that some of the witnesses gave (some gave a totally contradictory description, so that may not be very good evidence).

More importantly, he had the right job. As a fish porter, he would have some experience in cutting living beings open, but not too much (this would explain why the ripper`s cuts seem to be from someone experienced in using a knife, but also mangled his victims - a fish is much different from a human, after all, and he had to dig around a bit).

He knew Mary Kelly, but fought with her over prostitution, which could explain his choice of victims.

He also fits the modern characteristics of a serial killer: Probably a loner (his speech impediment may have led to isolation) working in a relatively unskilled job, he grew up without parents. Also, he was interviewed by the police for four hours before they released him. Some sociopaths are really good at fooling people and hiding their guilt.

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Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity

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Quttaus
I Saw Three Shipments


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Yea, the case for Barnett looked really interesting. The fact that he was near and dear to Mary Kelly always struck me as well.

Barnett lost his job not long before the murders started...isn't losing your job supposed to be one of the big stressors that can push a person over the edge?

ETA second paragraph.

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--Invader Zim

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Evil_eyes
We Three Blings


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That's the book. I did not see it when I browsed through Amazon looking for it. I remembered liking the book at the time I read it, but not putting to much faith in it. To me it read more like a Fiction book then Non-Fiction. And I tend to read more non-fiction books.

I have read up on the Zodiac as well, I haven't been to the web-site though in ages. They did have a really good suspect but the DNA didn't match. I can't help but think that somehow the DNA testing was mishandle.

Right now im reading a book on seriel killers that I picked up in the bargin section of B&N. Seriously I need to quit reading about morbid things, especially before bed.

E_E


quote:
Originally posted by HelloLlama:
Enchanting eyes, was it by any chance The Bell Tower by Robert Graysmith?

That theory has been discounted pretty easily and Graysmith isn't always the most honest of writers. He is most famous for his books on Zodiac (a case that I have read up on extensively) and as riveting as those books are, they are riddled with errors and stuff that he just makes up. The connections he makes can sometimes defy logic.



--------------------
"Taking all the pain I give you
Loving blindly in return
And I need you more than ever"
WWW.Myspace.com/E_E2000

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MonkeyMan
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Thanks, guys. This has been the most interesting discussion on the Ripper I've read or participated in in years!

One question: James Maybrick has been completely discounted as a suspect, right?

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Monkeys. Is there nothing they CAN'T do?

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Quttaus
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by MonkeyMan:
Thanks, guys. This has been the most interesting discussion on the Ripper I've read or participated in in years!

One question: James Maybrick has been completely discounted as a suspect, right?

Slap me, Seaboe, quick, before I write a two page long post! [lol]

But yeah, the Maybrick diaries have been pretty well debunked. The guy who "found" the diaries has admitted several times that he forged them.

Here are some good essays on the subject, too. (Beware, Harris is known for his ego).

--------------------
"Hey! Let go of me before something horrible happens to me! OR ELSE!"
--Invader Zim

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Cobra4J
Jingle Bell Hock


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I was just reading a book about Jack the Ripper-

Sorry to say, I have to agree with the authro; we can speculate to death, but without fingerprints, DNA, or some other extremely strong evidence, we will never know who he was.

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Andrew of Ware, England
A-Ware in a Manger


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Here's a chance for a possible urban legend to be debunked.

I have read that one of the victims of the Ripper fought back as she struggled for her life. On her clothing may well have been some of the Ripper's blood.

Is this true and if it is has Scotland Yard still got her clothing? If so then the DNA must have been extracted from it. However, to find out who that DNA belonged to would be a nigh on impossible task.

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Andrew, Ware, England

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Quttaus
I Saw Three Shipments


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That's an interesting theory, Andrew. I hadn't heard that one before.

Do you remember which victim it was supposed to be? Or alternately, where you heard this? I'd like to check it out.

I have to say though, it doesnt sound plausible. I doubt Scotland Yard kept any of the clothing after the autopsy. Also, the Ripper apparently was able to subdue his victims without much of a struggle, so I dont think there would be any of his blood on the victims.

--------------------
"Hey! Let go of me before something horrible happens to me! OR ELSE!"
--Invader Zim

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Cobra4J
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Andrew of Ware, England:
Here's a chance for a possible urban legend to be debunked.

I have read that one of the victims of the Ripper fought back as she struggled for her life. On her clothing may well have been some of the Ripper's blood.

Is this true and if it is has Scotland Yard still got her clothing? If so then the DNA must have been extracted from it. However, to find out who that DNA belonged to would be a nigh on impossible task.

Well, lets see -

If -

#1- One of the women did indeed fight back (quite a few had their throats cut from behind so probably not)- and

#2- if she did indeed cut him and get some of his blood on her clothing - and

#3- if they did indeed save this clothing all this time -

Then-

it might be possible to do a DNA analysis -

Could we prove or disprove whether it was one of the suspects in question? Well,

If we could find their remains- such as a skeleton or even just one tooth- probably yes.

Or if they have some close living relatives we could do a DNA test on - maybe.

So, as the myth busters would probably say, plausible, but unlikely.

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Quttaus
I Saw Three Shipments


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Bruising about the face and neck suggests that the victims were strangled into unconsciousness, (and possibly death) before their throats were cut. I would expect that there would have been defensive wounds on the women's hands, and possibly the killers' blood/tissue under the fingernails. That evidence wouldn't have survived all this time though.

I doubt the Yard would have saved the clothing, they wouldn't have any real reason too.

Again, which victims were you talking about? Mary Kelly and Annie Chapman possibly fought back, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence for the others.

--------------------
"Hey! Let go of me before something horrible happens to me! OR ELSE!"
--Invader Zim

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Andrew of Ware, England
A-Ware in a Manger


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I have the builders in at the moment so cannot do any research at home (books or Internet), but Scotland Yard, even in Victorian times, kept an awful lot of evidence. The police station has its 'Black Museum' with all sorts of interesting items from past crimes. Thus, although the blood stained clothing may not have survived, it may well have done.

Added later: Tea break at work. A quick 'Google'. This site has something on the letters, apparently about 600 of them, that were sent to Scotland Yard. Most, if not all, are regarded as hoaxes, but...

quote:
Scotland Yard was baited with 600 taunting letters claiming to be from the murderer.
Many were dismissed as hoaxes, but one, sent to Dr Openshaw and postmarked October 29 1888, contained specific details only the killer could have known about the removal of a victim's kidney.
PROF Findlay took swabs from the saliva under the seal and stamp of the envelope, as well as bloodstains on the letter, to glean a DNA "fingerprint".
Stewart Evans, a crime historian who has written five books on Jack the Ripper, says: "The letters that Ian looked at are the ones that we feel are worth looking at - the ones that are most likely to contain DNA, the ones that may possibly have come from the killer.
"Scotland Yard kept them under lock and key until 1961, when they handed them over. So we can be assured that they have not been altered."
Prof Walker, chief scientific officer at the Gribbles Molecular Science forensic lab in Victoria, Australia, was able to gain a partial DNA profile from the small and poorly preserved sample.
And although it is not enough to identify an individual beyond reasonable doubt, the results contained a shocking revelation.

The 'shocking revelation' is that Jack the Ripper may have been Jill the Ripper. And of course, it all depends on the letter being from the real Jack (or 'Jill') the Ripper.

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Andrew, Ware, England

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Quttaus
I Saw Three Shipments


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Well, this must be the letter they are talking about (about halfway down the page, the Openshaw letter).

quote:
Many were dismissed as hoaxes, but one, sent to Dr Openshaw and postmarked October 29 1888, contained specific details only the killer could have known about the removal of a victim's kidney.

Except that several newspapers (the Times , for example) had already mentioned that Eddows' kidney had been removed by her killer, over a week before the letter was sent.

So without 'details only the killer could have known', Prof. Findlay's claims don't really hold up.

Gonna do some research on the crime museum, though...here's hoping you're right [Wink]

--------------------
"Hey! Let go of me before something horrible happens to me! OR ELSE!"
--Invader Zim

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Seaboe Muffinchucker
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Quttaus:
quote:
Originally posted by MonkeyMan:
One question: James Maybrick has been completely discounted as a suspect, right?

Slap me, Seaboe, quick, before I write a two page long post! [lol]
Sorry, I've been gone. [Smile]

Quttaus is right, however. Maybrick is infinitely more interesting as a victim than he could ever be as the Ripper.

Seaboe

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Education is not the filling of a hard drive, but the lighting of a bulb. -- Yeats via Esprise Me

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Quttaus
I Saw Three Shipments


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Was wondering where you went, Seaboe.
Guess it's up to me to take care of the thwackin then.... [fish]

--------------------
"Hey! Let go of me before something horrible happens to me! OR ELSE!"
--Invader Zim

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