posted
Texas would join two other states that mandate access to employee-only restrooms for anyone with a pressing medical condition, including pregnancy, under a legislative proposal.
posted
Of course building codes vary by state but in North Carolina (from their plumbing code):
quote:Every building and each subdivision thereof intended for public use shall be provided with [plumbing] facilities in accordance with this chapter. Required facilities shall be directly accessible to the public through direct openings or corridors from the area or areas they are intended to serve. Required facilities shall be free and designated by legible signs for each sex. Pay facilities may be installed when in excess of the required minimum facilities.
The idea that a business can be open to the public & not have public restrooms (at least for customers) is nonsense.
-------------------- No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie Posts: 3833 | From: Virginia | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Will the state be supplying all the toilet paper, soap, paper towels, cleaning supplies, and staff to clean up after the slobs that will inevitably leave the most vile messes behind?
I'm not saying I disagree with this completely but I understand why some places choose to keep their restrooms private and that should be their right.
Posts: 835 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
When I worked at a Jo-Ann fabric store, for a period of time we had to tell customers they couldn't use the employee restroom. One of the managers instituted the policy in frustruation after having to clean feces from all over the walls, that one of our lovely customers (or more likely, one of our customers' children- our location seemed to attract women with many kids who they didn't seem very interested in keeping track of) had smeared there. I wasn't there to see it, but it must have been pretty horiffic.
When I explained to the customers why I had to tell them no, I think they understood enough to not be offended though. There was another store right next door that had multiple stalls, anyway.
I personally avoid public restrooms as much as possible, because having other people around talking, etc, is enough to make me no longer have to pee, even if I go in there having to pee so badly I brave my public restroom problem. However, I do have periodic digestive issues that make me have to find a restroom right-now and at those times nothing is quite so beautiful as a flush toilet, any toilet, and I don't care if there are 50 people talking around me. Actually, I probably wouldn't care if there were 50 people watching me, at least for that moment. If I was denied access to a restroom at that point, someone would have to be doing some clean-up in the middle of the store.
Posts: 550 | From: Springboro, OH | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by hoitoider: The idea that a business can be open to the public & not have public restrooms (at least for customers) is nonsense.
Why? Why does a business have any obligation to provide a toilet for you? What other non-business services are they obligated to provide?
pinqy
-------------------- Don't Forget! Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming! Posts: 8671 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by hoitoider: The idea that a business can be open to the public & not have public restrooms (at least for customers) is nonsense.
Why? Why does a business have any obligation to provide a toilet for you? What other non-business services are they obligated to provide?
pinqy
The cite Hotoider provided seems to confirm that, at least in that state, business's do have an obligation to provide toilets for their customers.
I wonder if in other jurisdictions the rules are based on how large the business is? I'd be hardpressed to think of any larger store, for instance, that does not provide a public bathroom but smaller "mom and pop" type operations wouldn't generally have them.
I've never been denied the use of an employee bathroom in an emergency though so I don't know offhand if that is just because most people are nice or because they were legally obliged to do so.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by hoitoider: The idea that a business can be open to the public & not have public restrooms (at least for customers) is nonsense.
Why? Why does a business have any obligation to provide a toilet for you? What other non-business services are they obligated to provide?
pinqy
Exit signs, means of egress, proper door hardware, sprinkler system and/or fire rated construction, h/c accessibility, class A finishes (flammability), ventilation, lighting, structure that won't collapse in a hurricane or earthquake, etc.
-------------------- No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie Posts: 3833 | From: Virginia | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Last summer, my family and I were in Baltimore, and it was time to get the MARC train back to Washington D.C.
After we left the shopping district, we walked to the train station, which is right in the shadow of Camden Yards, where there was a baseball game about to start. My (then) 7 year old decided she had to go pee NOW. I dragged her over and asked the parking attendant where I could take her. He said they would let us go in the stadium, despite having no tickets, if I gave the ticket taker my license. So we walked over, waited in line. No go. We ran back to the parking attendant. He said to try the Museum Store across the street, which was attached to the Oriole Museum. They wouldn't let us use the bathroom unless we took the museum tour. Back to the ticket taker, who was amazed no one would let a little kid go pee, but he was out of ideas that didn't involve us going so far away, we'd miss the train. The next train to DC was after the game was over.
We finally ended up waiting for the train, and the conductor nicely let us on immediately and pointed us to the nearest car with a bathroom, as he could see my daughter was in tears as we ran toward him, me yelling "Bathroom? Can she PLEASE use a bathroom?"
-------------------- "The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)
"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus) Posts: 2658 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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I wonder if in other jurisdictions the rules are based on how large the business is? I'd be hardpressed to think of any larger store, for instance, that does not provide a public bathroom but smaller "mom and pop" type operations wouldn't generally have them.
That's the key issue for me, the size of the business. I've worked at a couple of small mom-and-pop stores, and the staff bathroom was invariably in the back among the stock, or downstairs out of sight of the cashier. There should be a basic right of proprietors to not have to let customers wander unattended among premises that are otherwise off-limits to customers. If they start mandating that such tiny stores open their johns to anyone who's really gotta go, that can't end well.
Of course, I've been to large stores with no restrooms or inadequate ones, and I wish someone would mandate better facilities. The Eaton Centre here in Toronto is a massive shopping mall, and I've always found most of their public washrooms too small (too few stalls) and badly maintained to boot IMHO.
Max "not that I've compared them with charts or anything" Renn
-------------------- Sister Ann: DRIVE! DRIVE Crow T. Robot: Look, I'm already driving, there's no inherent quantity of driving that I can increase! If you want me to go faster, you should say so. Posts: 579 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Add me to the voices wondering about mom-and-pop stores. Would they then be required to remodel to make said restrooms handicapped accessible? I can think of plenty of places around here that have tiny little closet-like employee-only bathrooms in the back. Most of the little banks, small hair salons, gas stations, the little grocery store, the flooring store, the computer fix-it store, the second-hand bookstore, and so on. Small small places.
I also wonder if this requirement applies to private businesses only. The post office where I live doesn't have a public restroom either. I haven't been to a small town post office that does.
Posts: 544 | From: Onalaska, WI | Registered: Nov 2005
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Mr. Furious
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Public restrooms in malls are becoming more plentiful, I think. At the newest big indoor mall around here (Triangle Town Center), there are toilets all over the place. It's great. At Northgate Mall, which has been around for quite a while, the only public restrooms I'm aware of are in the food court. This doesn't count restrooms in stores themselves, though.
At Wyoming Valley Mall in PA, the bathrooms are horrible. The ones by the food court are of the standard old, vaguely unsanitary-looking variety, but the other set - down an access corridor at the other end of the mall - are downright horrifying. I'd think that they were intended for employees rather than customers, but the door to the corridor is marked prominently.
Mr. Furious
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by glass papaya: The post office where I live doesn't have a public restroom either. I haven't been to a small town post office that does.
Hmm. My dad's Post Office, which was a small one, didn't, and come to think of it, I don't know if I've ever been in a Post Office that did.
quote:Originally posted by glass papaya: Add me to the voices wondering about mom-and-pop stores. Would they then be required to remodel to make said restrooms handicapped accessible? I can think of plenty of places around here that have tiny little closet-like employee-only bathrooms in the back. Most of the little banks [snip]
Are the little banks really mom-and-pop places? Around here, there are hardly any independent local banks left, and even those are not what I'd call mom-and-pop, although some of the offices may be physically on the small side.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by glass papaya: Add me to the voices wondering about mom-and-pop stores. Would they then be required to remodel to make said restrooms handicapped accessible? I can think of plenty of places around here that have tiny little closet-like employee-only bathrooms in the back. Most of the little banks [snip]
Are the little banks really mom-and-pop places? Around here, there are hardly any independent local banks left, and even those are not what I'd call mom-and-pop, although some of the offices may be physically on the small side.
Well, I guess banks can't really be considered mom-and-pop. I was just thinking of places that don't have public restrooms around here, which is most places.
They are small, though. Two teller windows and not enough room to swing a cat. Posts: 544 | From: Onalaska, WI | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
For the record, if you're stuck, maternity stores *always* have bathrooms. I usually look for one if it's an emergency.
-------------------- My great grandfather planted that tree! Posts: 4862 | From: Brooklyn | Registered: Sep 2000
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Mr. Furious
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Stores that cater to kids usually have them as well, and if they do, they're equipped with changing stations. That's always good to know if you have one in diapers.
One thing that kills me is when the ladies' room has a changing station but the men's room doesn't. It isn't all that common, but it's happened, and it's annoying. Men change diapers too, people!
quote:Originally posted by pinqy: Why? Why does a business have any obligation to provide a toilet for you? What other non-business services are they obligated to provide?
pinqy
Depends on the business in my opinion. I would expect a grocery store, or restaurant to provide restrooms for sanitary reasons. If nothing else I would like to wash my hands before I eat with them.
Posts: 4580 | From: Walnut Creek, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Here virtually every restaurant has restrooms (for customers only), but the vast majority of stores do not. Only the big box mega stores are likely to have them open to the public. It can be a problem since there are so few options if you're just walking around and have to go. The city recently added a public restroom downtown to help, but predictably, its so gross that you'll only go there in an emergency.
Posts: 2018 | From: Santa Barbara, California | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I believe you will find that all eating establishments are required to have restrooms for patrons per local health code. The only exception will be those that have no patron seating.
This bill seems to be in support of those with pressing medical need, not for access by the general public. As has been stated, there will be 'pushback' by those businesses whose restroom facilities are in an area not normally accessible to the public.
James Powell
Posts: 588 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
When we had to take the older daugher to Midway airport, our little one always seemed to have potty issues about the time we got there. Babys-R-Us was always a lifesaver!
I hate that gas stations seem to be getting stingy with their bathrooms. I can understand if it's a little hole in the wall, but when I used to travel a lot, I saw some pretty nice stations that said "no public restroom." That's why when I need a pee break on the road, I just head for the fast food places.
-------------------- I've got a pen in my pocket does that make me a writer? Standing on the mountain doesn't make me no higher. Putting on gloves don't make you a fighter. And all the study in the world doesn't make it science. -Paul Weller Posts: 199 | From: Kalamazoo, MI | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
My father went through a period last year when he would suddenly have to 'go' RIGHT NOW. And it was always 'Number II'. Finding a place on such short notice was a problem, and getting him to it (given his orthopedic problems) when we did was also one. (And, when I couldn't waive my magic wand and conjure one up where/when he needed it, it was my fault--but that's another issue.) We sometimes went into restaurants and were told 'restrooms are for PAYING customers only.' I'd say, "If you don't let my 82-year-old father use your facilities, he will use your floor; now GET OUT OF OUR WAY!"
-------------------- "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
I once worked in a mall outlet of a large retail music chain. Our store was not very large, and we had only a single restroom in the back area among the overstock, packing material, etc. One day I walked back there to find a little girl using the restroom while her mother hovered outside the door. It didn't matter to mom that it wasn't a public restroom, and that she hadn't so much as asked a single employee for an okay before heading off into a private area of the store without permission -- her little princess had to go potty, and she couldn't be bothered taking her to any of the public restrooms provided for mall customers. (It was quite clear that this was not an emergency situation.)
This chain was so cheap (or, more accurately, so paranoid) that we didn't have a single regular phone in the store (and this was long before the advent of cell phones). We had two pay phones, one behind each counter, and if we wanted to call the main office (to, say, order more inventory), we literally had to take a dime out of petty cash and put it in the phone first. The general public, however, (mistakenly) assumes that any pay phone is also a public phone, and so customers were constantly walking right behind the counters to use our phones as if they were entitled to them.
posted
Years ago I got lost in a mid-sized city with my kids. My younger son had to go "now!" This was an issue with this kid sometimes. I was stuck in traffic so I gave him a container to try and use, but the poor little guy missed and went all over himself (it wasn't the best container totally not his fault). He was sobbing in embarrassment.
We found a discount chain store that also had an outlet in our small home town. I found him a pair of pants and was in line to buy them when he said, "Mommy I still have to go baaadddd!" He had stopped himself when he could in the car, but wasn't nearly finished. I got to the counter and told the woman the situation; she sniffed looked down her nose at us and said: "We have no public restrooms." It wasn't what she said it was the snotty way she said it. I thought it was ridiculous that this nasty woman could look at a crying six year old, practically sneer, and say no in such a nasty fashion. I often wish that I could have thrown the pants in her face, let my son pee right there, and tell her, "Hmmm I think you have a public restroom now." Of course I didn't do any of that. I just paid for the pants (he needed them) and left. The humiliation he would have suffered wetting his pants again and so publicly wouldn't have been worth it, but that old biddy deserved it.
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Mr. Furious: At Wyoming Valley Mall in PA, the bathrooms are horrible. The ones by the food court are of the standard old, vaguely unsanitary-looking variety, but the other set - down an access corridor at the other end of the mall - are downright horrifying. I'd think that they were intended for employees rather than customers, but the door to the corridor is marked prominently.
I used to work there (Arby's on the food court), and even the employees preferred not to use those other bathrooms. If I had the time, I'd go to Penney's at the other end of the mall to use the restrooms. They weren't great, but they were better than the food court ones.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hubert Cumberdale: Will the state be supplying all the toilet paper, soap, paper towels, cleaning supplies, and staff to clean up after the slobs that will inevitably leave the most vile messes behind?
The employees of a business are just as likely to be the type to leave vile messes behind. Excluding customers does not alleviate that problem.
-------------------- "My Very Educated Mother Just Said Uh-oh! No...Pluto..."~ Steven Colbert Posts: 3256 | From: Somewhere in Ohio | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Hubert Cumberdale: Will the state be supplying all the toilet paper, soap, paper towels, cleaning supplies, and staff to clean up after the slobs that will inevitably leave the most vile messes behind?
The employees of a business are just as likely to be the type to leave vile messes behind. Excluding customers does not alleviate that problem.
I once used the employee bathroom of a small second hand bookstore. It was one of those behind the curtain, down the stairs and around the corner type deals and rarely patronized by customers. It was absolutely disgusting. This attitude that keeping something exclusive means it won't be dirtied by those piggy "customers" is pretty laughable.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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I wonder if in other jurisdictions the rules are based on how large the business is? I'd be hardpressed to think of any larger store, for instance, that does not provide a public bathroom but smaller "mom and pop" type operations wouldn't generally have them.
That's the key issue for me, the size of the business. I've worked at a couple of small mom-and-pop stores, and the staff bathroom was invariably in the back among the stock, or downstairs out of sight of the cashier. There should be a basic right of proprietors to not have to let customers wander unattended among premises that are otherwise off-limits to customers. If they start mandating that such tiny stores open their johns to anyone who's really gotta go, that can't end well.
Of course, I've been to large stores with no restrooms or inadequate ones, and I wish someone would mandate better facilities. The Eaton Centre here in Toronto is a massive shopping mall, and I've always found most of their public washrooms too small (too few stalls) and badly maintained to boot IMHO.
Max "not that I've compared them with charts or anything" Renn
Yorkdale, on the other hand, has recently spent so much on new washroom facilities they remind me more of a really-high-end luxury conference hotel than a shopping mall. They've even got several "family" washrooms that can comfortably accomodate an active set of three-year-old sextuplets and still have room for a parent.
Nonny
-------------------- When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 10141 | From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
The problem with this creates the question: What determines "pressing medical condition"? And how are the employees to determine when a customer has one? Pregnancy is obvious; other things are not.
As several others have pointed out, a young child having to go is a pressing condition, yet snopes posted about a parent taking a child in what he deemed a non-emergency. While I'm not defending a parent neglecting to ask permission before using an employees only restroom, I know from experience that to a recently potty-trained child, ANY time you have to go is an emergency. You get a five minute window from "I gotta potty" to "I peed", if you're lucky!
quote:Originally posted by Hubert Cumberdale: Will the state be supplying all the toilet paper, soap, paper towels, cleaning supplies, and staff to clean up after the slobs that will inevitably leave the most vile messes behind?
The employees of a business are just as likely to be the type to leave vile messes behind. Excluding customers does not alleviate that problem.
I once used the employee bathroom of a small second hand bookstore. It was one of those behind the curtain, down the stairs and around the corner type deals and rarely patronized by customers. It was absolutely disgusting. This attitude that keeping something exclusive means it won't be dirtied by those piggy "customers" is pretty laughable.
Keeping it exclusive might not eliminate the bathroom being dirtied but it will definitely alleviate the problem. Not all employees are perfect, but they're more likely to treat a bathroom they use daily with more respect than a customer. I've seen far more disgusting public bathrooms than private ones.
Posts: 835 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Auntie Witch: The problem with this creates the question: What determines "pressing medical condition"? And how are the employees to determine when a customer has one? Pregnancy is obvious; other things are not.
From the article, people would have to present a doctor's statement or ID card stating the condition. I wonder how long it would take for people to start arguing that this is a violation of medical privacy. Does the clerk at the local record store really need to know your specific medical condition?
Posts: 544 | From: Onalaska, WI | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Back in my days as a cashier for a grocery store, I often had to tell customers that the washroom (a filthy little hole in the back room, covered in smears of blood from the meat department and smelling like a slaughterhouse) was for employees only, usually following up by telling them about the fastfood restaurant across the street.
More often than not, this resulted in the customer screaming about their "rights" and demanding to talk to the manager. He usually let them go use it, which meant I got glared at (or worse) because I was obviously lying about company policy out of some personal vendetta against the customer.
posted
I don't know whether its true, but one explanation I've heard from retail employees about not allowing customers to use the bathroom is that their businesses insurance policy covers a public bathroom differently, so they are obligated not to treat the employee bathroom as public unless they want to pay more. Presumably a state law codifying an exemption for medical emergencies only would allow them to still maintain this distinction.
Posts: 2018 | From: Santa Barbara, California | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Auntie Witch: The problem with this creates the question: What determines "pressing medical condition"? And how are the employees to determine when a customer has one? Pregnancy is obvious; other things are not.
From the article, people would have to present a doctor's statement or ID card stating the condition. I wonder how long it would take for people to start arguing that this is a violation of medical privacy. Does the clerk at the local record store really need to know your specific medical condition?
That's an interesting point. In my case I wouldn't care if I had to tell someone if it meant I didn't have to piss myself. Ultimately I suppose the card would just be something else to put in my wallet. In principle though I'm not sure I'd like to have to go through that if I'm in a bathroom emergency.
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