quote:Originally posted by Buckleupp: So why don't we just sterilize those the government deems not acceptable?
It has been tried. Not only in Germany, but also in the United States.
-------------------- "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002
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But where do you draw the line? There are arguments against singletons and obese people, and facial deformities...who's fit, then? I just feel like at least everyone has something wrong with them. Probably everyone at some point will get teased for having "weird" or imperfect parents. And every kid thinks their parents are embarrassing. I'm just having trouble thinking of a "good" parent under China's policies.
-------------------- "You can't play Electro-magnetic Golf according to the rules of Centrifugal Bumble Puppy." -Mustapha Mond, "Brave New World" Posts: 679 | From: New York | Registered: Oct 2001
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Spooky Cactus
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales
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quote:Originally posted by Ophiuchus: 2) Children who grow up with a single parent tend on average to have more problems than a child with two parents. Go to any website that is designed to try to encourage men to stick around and be fathers to their kids for the information. The typical dropping out, doing drugs, teenage pregnancy, crime rate speil.
And are those problems more or less prevalent in people who grew up with no parents at all?
It's not to do with America, imperialism or anything else. It's the simple fact that some of these are not acceptable limits to place on adoption FULL STOP and *will* result in children who would otherwise have had one or more fat or deformed parent, or one with a mental condition, will be stuck in the orphanage.
-------------------- 'When the world is dead and gone, we will still be Rocking On!' (J.P.McCartney) Posts: 154 | From: Yorkshire, England | Registered: May 2006
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I think the decisions should be based on actions and not on characteristics. In other words they should consider things like criminal background and past incidences of abuse, neglect, or violence. This is the only fair way to judge or predict someone's parenting without discriminating against a group of people.
(And to clarify when I suggested sterilization I was being sarcastic.)
-------------------- HA! That's so funny I forgot to laugh...excluding that first Ha. -Stewie Griffin Posts: 112 | From: Albuquerque, NM | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ophiuchus: Furthermore, on the marriage thing, try to put yourself in their shoes for a moment here. China is a country where many people still have their spouses choosen for them.
Do you have actual evidence that most marriages in modern China are arranged, or are you just guessing? IOW, cite, please?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ophiuchus: 2) Children who grow up with a single parent tend on average to have more problems than a child with two parents. Go to any website that is designed to try to encourage men to stick around and be fathers to their kids for the information. The typical dropping out, doing drugs, teenage pregnancy, crime rate speil.
And are those problems more or less prevalent in people who grew up with no parents at all?
It's not to do with America, imperialism or anything else. It's the simple fact that some of these are not acceptable limits to place on adoption FULL STOP and *will* result in children who would otherwise have had one or more fat or deformed parent, or one with a mental condition, will be stuck in the orphanage.
It is exactly to do with America and imperialism when you take the attitude that Westerners know better than Chinese the circumstances under which the Chinese should relinquish their own children to people from other countries.
-------------------- With occasional, half-hearted, semi-literate blogging comes great responsibility. Posts: 1621 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2001
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China already refuses to allow gay couples to adopt, so lesbians have had to represent themselves as single women (which, technically, they are) in order to do so. This can't happen under the new rules, so my colleague wouldn't have been able to adopt her smart and beautiful little girl. Children of single parents may well have more problems, statistically (although controlling for poverty would do much to rectify this); children of same sex couples have no such problems. There's no justification for it, as far as I can see.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:It is exactly to do with America and imperialism when you take the attitude that Westerners know better than Chinese the circumstances under which the Chinese should relinquish their own children to people from other countries.
No, this is a universal human rights issue. What makes a child grow up healthy and well adjusted is, in my opinion, universal. I don't mean to suggest that all children must be exposed to American TV and Barbies or even public schools, but I believe it is a universal truth that children of any culture will grow up to be better (emotionally and physically healthy, capable of making good decisions, etc.) if they have a parent or two devoted to their well being, rather than growing up in a group home, orphanage, or similar condition. Many of the girls who grow up in these orphanages leave in their early teens and turn to prostitution to support themselves. I don't think it's such a horrible thing that people want to "rescue" these children - not from their culture but from pain and death.
-------------------- HA! That's so funny I forgot to laugh...excluding that first Ha. -Stewie Griffin Posts: 112 | From: Albuquerque, NM | Registered: Oct 2006
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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Arranged is not the same thing it used to be. Probably most of the arranged marriages nowadays the people getting married have as much say in as if they went out into the world and found a partner on their own. IME it usually involves consulting a horoscope chart of the two people and a facilitated introduction. It is as arranged as any mother telling her son that she knows a nice woman from church that would be perfect for him and she is going to be at the house on Friday so wear a nice shirt.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
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With reports like this that detail the horrifying statistics of China's orphanage system (like an up to 72% mortality rate for newborns in the first year), I have a hard time not feeling like these types of rules "protecting" orphans from foreign adoptions are not something of a sham, considering the government's treatment of them at home.
But I am, admittedly, biased. I live too close to Romania and have too many friends who are either adoptive parents or aid workers there. It is very difficult for me to not see the foreign adotion system of countries like these as little more than institutionalized baby selling. To now have them add rules making it even more difficult to save children out of a lonely, wretched, and often cruel system is nothing short of disgusting to me.
Edited to fix statistic
-------------------- The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House Posts: 2684 | From: Budapest | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mr. Fed: It is exactly to do with America and imperialism when you take the attitude that Westerners know better than Chinese the circumstances under which the Chinese should relinquish their own children to people from other countries.
Are children a natural or manufactured resource that the Chinese government can consider rightful owners of? Or are they humans who need care and nuturing? If the Chinese government were providing adequate care and nuturing, I would say you had a point. But they are not.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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Should the Chinese, or any adoption agency for that matter, have standards for the prospective parents? If yes, what kinds of things would be acceptable?
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
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I think part of the problem is that people want to adopt a child free and clear of any specific connections. One reason I've heard many people look international is so that don't have to deal with birthparents. Now they don't want China, an uber birth parent if you will, to have a say in what happens to its children. These connections don't just disappear when the legalese is done.
(I'm not trying to say this was Mr. Fed's motivation to adopt internationally. Discussion of a tendency doesn't necessarily apply to individual decisions.)
Even people who haven't adopted seem to have a inordinate amount of interest in the birthparents. The motivations for giving up a child are questioned and because the BF could consider such a thing all other choices are suspect. Is this why the story is getting so much traction among those who have no intention of adopting from China?
The facial deformity thing is interesting. One friend adopted a girl with a cleft lip and palate from China. She was told that the baby was probably abandoned because of the cleft lip and had zero chance of finding any place in socity because of it. I suppose that there is a deep seated prejustice against facial deformity that we don't really grok here.
Posts: 1168 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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Children are not owned by the government. But if there is a human rights obligation to provide adequate care for them, does that imply an obligation to let (comparatively) rich Westerners come and get them, on whatever terms the rich Westerners deem acceptable? The question of whether China treats its orphaned children in an acceptable manner, and the question of whether it must export them, are two separate questions.
And is America really the country to be throwing the first stone about adequate care for children? The infant mortality rate here for poor children is nothing to be proud of. Nor, for that matter, is the overall infant mortality rate -- which is roughly 10th (the second worst in the developed world), despite the fact that we are so comparatively rich. And if you are born black, welcome to an infant mortality rate more than twice that of whites.
-------------------- With occasional, half-hearted, semi-literate blogging comes great responsibility. Posts: 1621 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Aud: [QB] I think part of the problem is that people want to adopt a child free and clear of any specific connections. One reason I've heard many people look international is so that don't have to deal with birthparents. Now they don't want China, an uber birth parent if you will, to have a say in what happens to its children. These connections don't just disappear when the legalese is done.
(I'm not trying to say this was Mr. Fed's motivation to adopt internationally. Discussion of a tendency doesn't necessarily apply to individual decisions.)
No offense taken, but it skips over a number of other frequent reasons. The process tends to be shorter, and is more predictable (usually) than domestic private or public adoption. Also, you don't have to rely on the United States' social worker network -- a network which, until recently, was heavily influenced by a group that claimed that cross-racial adoption was "cultural genocide."
quote:
The facial deformity thing is interesting. One friend adopted a girl with a cleft lip and palate from China. She was told that the baby was probably abandoned because of the cleft lip and had zero chance of finding any place in socity because of it. I suppose that there is a deep seated prejustice against facial deformity that we don't really grok here.
This is an important point -- we don't know or understand all of the cultural signifiers.
Most people we talk to are amazed to learn that many more boys than girls are put up for international adoption from South Korea. There's a cultural reason (having to do with the stigma on adoption and the cultural importance of a man being able to trace his lineage) that most people aren't familiar with.
-------------------- With occasional, half-hearted, semi-literate blogging comes great responsibility. Posts: 1621 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2001
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My friend who is in the process of adopting (hence my emotional and committed responses here) has her motivation in trying to rescue a girl from potential sex slavery or prostitution. I don't think there was any specific reason for her to eschew domestic adoption of a black child or an older foster child other than, her words, she felt "called" to adopt from China. She is certainly not one to fall for "fads" nor a desire to avoid birth parents. It was just her choice.
Mr. Fed I certainly agree with you wholeheartedly that we are doing a crappy job here in America of taking care of our orphans. I'd love to adopt or foster an older child but would never be approved by the government (pick a reason - obese, treated for depression, single, they don't love those things here in America either).
All I can hope is that China hurries to approve her dossier before May 1st, because despite China's "evidence" to the contrary, I know my friend will make the best parent you could imagine. I wish you the best in your process as well.
Going home now to avoid the snow.
-------------------- HA! That's so funny I forgot to laugh...excluding that first Ha. -Stewie Griffin Posts: 112 | From: Albuquerque, NM | Registered: Oct 2006
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I'd like to emphasize that I said "one reason" in my comment about reasons for adopting internationally. I know all too well that there are a host of reasons for intiating any family building.
Buckleup - don't discount yourself. My weight and previous treatment for depression were mentioned but not really an issue in my daughter's adoption. Some agencies specialize in single parent adoption. There is lots of stuff people think they know about adoption that turns out not to be true.
Posts: 1168 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mr. Fed: It is exactly to do with America and imperialism when you take the attitude that Westerners know better than Chinese the circumstances under which the Chinese should relinquish their own children to people from other countries.
Are children a natural or manufactured resource that the Chinese government can consider rightful owners of?
-------------------- "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Buckleupp: I think the decisions should be based on actions and not on characteristics. In other words they should consider things like criminal background and past incidences of abuse, neglect, or violence. This is the only fair way to judge or predict someone's parenting without discriminating against a group of people.
(And to clarify when I suggested sterilization I was being sarcastic.)
And what do you do when the potential adoptive parents have never had kids before? How do you prove that they would be fit parents based on your criteria? There are probably abusive parents out there who probably would have looked good on paper before having kids on their own.
LR
Posts: 780 | From: Dallas, TX | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Buckleupp: My friend who is in the process of adopting (hence my emotional and committed responses here) has her motivation in trying to rescue a girl from potential sex slavery or prostitution. I don't think there was any specific reason for her to eschew domestic adoption of a black child or an older foster child other than, her words, she felt "called" to adopt from China.[emphasis mine]
That might be the exact attitude that causes resentment from the other countries. I don't know about the Chinese, but if someone had the attitude of adopting a child from the US in order to save her from sinfully showing her ankles and looking men in the face, I'd be pretty cheesed off.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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There are some cases of black children in the US being adopted abroad. I'm not sure if their adoptive parents thought in terms of rescue but birth mothers in both articles cite less prejustice in other contries in their reasons for choosing the adoptive parents' location.
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This discussion reminds me of the little "experiment" my Sociology 101 professor visited upon us in college, and I am sure many of you are aware of it. We were put in groups of four people and told that it was 200 years in the future. The population had gotten so out of control that you now had to have a license to get pregnant. We (the group of four) were given the task of assigning only four "babies" to six potential couples. We were given no names; only stats. Which two couples would we deny a baby? Three of them were exemplary couples, two were below average, and one was just horrible. Across the board, everyone denied a baby to the "horrible" couple, and the other denied couple was spread evenly among the two "below average" couples. Now here come the punchline: The "horrible" couple that was unilaterally denied was Abraham and Mary Lincoln (what a nut case they were!) I believe Mozart and Ben Franklin were the patriarchs of the "below-average" couple. Hitler and Eva Braun were one of the "exemplary" couples.
I am not sure how that applies other than to illustrate the sometimes impossible task of identifying greatness or decent parenting by statistics alone.
-------------------- "I bet a funny thing about driving a car off a cliff is, while you're in midair, you still hit those brakes. Hey, better try the emergency brake." -Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey Posts: 245 | From: Gladstone, MO | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by erinker74: Now here come the punchline: The "horrible" couple that was unilaterally denied was Abraham and Mary Lincoln (what a nut case they were!) I believe Mozart and Ben Franklin were the patriarchs of the "below-average" couple. Hitler and Eva Braun were one of the "exemplary" couples.
Just because Lincoln did some good things doesn't necessarilly mean he was a good parent. Mozart, if I recall correctly, was borderline insane. Franklin had a dozen of mistresses at any given time. On the other hand, I don't see how one could classify Hitler and Eva Braun as good parents. The former was hateful, physically and mentally abusive and likely stricken with at least one terminal disease. The later was obsessive, irresponsible and prone to suicidal depression. Someone really dropped the ball on that one.
Just because one is skilled, determined or ambitious enough to make them historically signifigant does not mean that they would make good parents. In fact, the families of the most famous politicians and artists have always been some of the most neglected (check out what little is known about Shakespear's family).
Anyhow, I will admit that in my defining why the rules China made might not be so bad, I did neglect to compare it to the conditions of an orphanage. It is important to look at it in the context of those parents or nothing and that does significantly change things.
But, at the same time there are plenty of children who need adopted in the U.S. and dozens of other countries in the world (many of whom are worse off than China) and I cannot help but feel that those who are going after the Chinese children may have less than impure motives. Whether it be because it is the fad thing to do or they want to "Save" some heathens/infidels or what... A really vague reason like they were "called" to do so would make me highly suspicious and I think the person needs to do some real soul searching and consider whether they are doing this for the good of a child or themselves. Especially when it comes at the price of abandoning another child who could have used a parent.
And how serious is the person really taking it? Are they choosing to become fluent in Chinese and are they willing to celebrate the various Chinese festivals? Are they prepared to make some trips to China later in life so that the child can get in touch with the land their ancestors came from? Or do they expect the child to be delivered to them ready to speak English and be Americanized and never think or see China or the Chinese as an evil communist empire again?
If you don't like China's rules, adopt elsewhere.
Posts: 411 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by erinker74: This discussion reminds me of the little "experiment" my Sociology 101 professor visited upon us in college, and I am sure many of you are aware of it. We were put in groups of four people and told that it was 200 years in the future. The population had gotten so out of control that you now had to have a license to get pregnant. We (the group of four) were given the task of assigning only four "babies" to six potential couples. We were given no names; only stats. Which two couples would we deny a baby? Three of them were exemplary couples, two were below average, and one was just horrible. Across the board, everyone denied a baby to the "horrible" couple, and the other denied couple was spread evenly among the two "below average" couples. Now here come the punchline: The "horrible" couple that was unilaterally denied was Abraham and Mary Lincoln (what a nut case they were!) I believe Mozart and Ben Franklin were the patriarchs of the "below-average" couple. Hitler and Eva Braun were one of the "exemplary" couples.
I am not sure how that applies other than to illustrate the sometimes impossible task of identifying greatness or decent parenting by statistics alone.
Do all Sociology professors steal experiments from chain emails?
-------------------- Nico Sasha In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel. Posts: 4912 | From: VA | Registered: Jul 2003
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There is a somewhat more to adoption than stats. We were fingerprinted for criminal background checks both local and federal. We had medical tests for general health and HIV and TB. There were essays to complete. Friends wrote letters of recomendation. Some agencies require parenting classes. We had to prove we had jobs and how much we make. Lots of stuff had to be notarized. I understand that there are more steps involved in international adoption such as getting everthing translated. There is really no way to go though this without some forethought.
All of this is supposed to eliminate those with "less than impure motives" and even those with "less than pure motives."
Some families go extreme in celebrating their child's home country and some do very little. Some do make visits to home country. I'm on a list for adoptive parents of all types and a recent topic was 'giving back'. I was touched and surprised at how many send stuff to the orphanages where their child came from (even if there are no guarentees that it actually arrives.)
My daughter's adoption was domestic and relatively easy because we knew the birthparents. I've learned a lot about all kinds of adoptions from the various lists I'm on and from research. However, I feel like I should shut up and let the guy with acutal international adoption experience have a go.
Posts: 1168 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
I just read (an out of date) article about another peril of international adoptions of formerly institutionalized children. Sometimes the children have a personality disorder from their experience in the orphanages and some of them end up being returned, either to their home country or to the foster care system where they were adopted. I think even living in an orphanage is better than being adopted and then having the adoption fail and be returned.
Maybe China has also been experiencing an increase in disrupted adoptions and wants to make sure that once the children are adopted the parents have a good chance of being able to raise them.
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Rhiandmoi, the children who have the horrible attachment disorder issues are almost always from Eastern Europe and countries from the former USSR. All of the adoption research I did suggested that Chinese adoptees are not experiencing these problems.
Many Russian orphanages just leave infants alone in their cribs, lying in their own waste and ignored all day. They don't even put diapers on them, because that's the quickest way to get them potty-trained. There are too many infants and not enough workers. With nobody to pay attention to them, some of these children become incapable of loving and attaching with a normal parent-child bond later. Add to that the epidemic of fetal-alcohol issues in Russia and you end up with some serious complications once these kids get home. I'm not saying a Chinese orphanage is heaven for kids, but my understanding is that the kids receive at least the minimum care they need and drinking while pregnant is not as much of a problem.
Posts: 2115 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Buckleupp: My friend who is in the process of adopting (hence my emotional and committed responses here) has her motivation in trying to rescue a girl from potential sex slavery or prostitution. I don't think there was any specific reason for her to eschew domestic adoption of a black child or an older foster child other than, her words, she felt "called" to adopt from China.[emphasis mine]
That might be the exact attitude that causes resentment from the other countries. I don't know about the Chinese, but if someone had the attitude of adopting a child from the US in order to save her from sinfully showing her ankles and looking men in the face, I'd be pretty cheesed off.
Surely human trafficking is a universal wrong?
-------------------- The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House Posts: 2684 | From: Budapest | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by I saw Mommy kismet Santa Claus: With nobody to pay attention to them, some of these children become incapable of loving and attaching with a normal parent-child bond later. Add to that the epidemic of fetal-alcohol issues in Russia and you end up with some serious complications once these kids get home. I'm not saying a Chinese orphanage is heaven for kids, but my understanding is that the kids receive at least the minimum care they need and drinking while pregnant is not as much of a problem.
I agree with your assessment of the Eastern European orphanage problem (a friend of mine who is an aid worker was asked by Romanian orphanage workers not to pick the babies up, many of whom were crippled because of lack of exercise, because that would just make them "want it all the time"), but I'm not so sure about how well China is caring for its orphans. Did you see the article I linked? When up to 72% of newborns are dying in the first year within the system, they can't be getting the minimum of care they need, either.
-------------------- The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House Posts: 2684 | From: Budapest | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: Surely human trafficking is a universal wrong?
Whether it is or is not is not really the subject. My point was that the idea that a girl baby that was not adopted by would either be a sex-slave or prostitute and would need to be saved from her horrible culture might be a bit insulting to the home country.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: Surely human trafficking is a universal wrong?
Whether it is or is not is not really the subject. My point was that the idea that a girl baby that was not adopted by would either be a sex-slave or prostitute and would need to be saved from her horrible culture might be a bit insulting to the home country.
In some countries, it might also be a likely fate for an unwanted girl child.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by erinker74: This discussion reminds me of the little "experiment" my Sociology 101 professor visited upon us in college, and I am sure many of you are aware of it. We were put in groups of four people and told that it was 200 years in the future. The population had gotten so out of control that you now had to have a license to get pregnant. We (the group of four) were given the task of assigning only four "babies" to six potential couples. We were given no names; only stats. Which two couples would we deny a baby? Three of them were exemplary couples, two were below average, and one was just horrible. Across the board, everyone denied a baby to the "horrible" couple, and the other denied couple was spread evenly among the two "below average" couples. Now here come the punchline: The "horrible" couple that was unilaterally denied was Abraham and Mary Lincoln (what a nut case they were!) I believe Mozart and Ben Franklin were the patriarchs of the "below-average" couple. Hitler and Eva Braun were one of the "exemplary" couples.
I am not sure how that applies other than to illustrate the sometimes impossible task of identifying greatness or decent parenting by statistics alone.
Do all Sociology professors steal experiments from chain emails?
Well, it was 14 years ago so I don't think email was wide spread then.
-------------------- "I bet a funny thing about driving a car off a cliff is, while you're in midair, you still hit those brakes. Hey, better try the emergency brake." -Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey Posts: 245 | From: Gladstone, MO | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ophiuchus: But, at the same time there are plenty of children who need adopted in the U.S. and dozens of other countries in the world (many of whom are worse off than China) and I cannot help but feel that those who are going after the Chinese children may have less than impure motives. Whether it be because it is the fad thing to do or they want to "Save" some heathens/infidels or what... A really vague reason like they were "called" to do so would make me highly suspicious and I think the person needs to do some real soul searching and consider whether they are doing this for the good of a child or themselves. Especially when it comes at the price of abandoning another child who could have used a parent.
And how serious is the person really taking it? Are they choosing to become fluent in Chinese and are they willing to celebrate the various Chinese festivals? Are they prepared to make some trips to China later in life so that the child can get in touch with the land their ancestors came from? Or do they expect the child to be delivered to them ready to speak English and be Americanized and never think or see China or the Chinese as an evil communist empire again?
If you don't like China's rules, adopt elsewhere.
We've adopted from China twice. (Mr. Fed, maybe it's a lawyer thing!) Maybe it would be helpful to post some of our thoughts.
When we first decided to adopt, we went to Barnes and Noble and looked for some books about the whole process. My wife picked up a book about international adoption and said, "Well, we're SURE we don't want to do this!"
Oops.
We went to an informational meeting about US adoptions at an agency. We were told that the process involved putting together a portfolio of information and photos of ourselves, essentially a sales brochure for us as potential parents, which would then be shopped around to birthmothers who would pick us, or not. We were also told of one family that was chosen by a birthmother, who changed her mind after giving birth.
This happened to them four times.
End of private agency adoption discussion.
Agencies are reluctant to place older children with childless couples, with good reason, and we were involved in the process at the very height of the controversy about placing nonwhite children (which we, obviously, would have happily accepted) with white parents. White babies, of course, were easily placed and therefore were not easily available.
Against this, the China program, which offered us
1) the chance to parent a child from the baby stage on, 2) the certainty of a child, whose birthparents' rights had already been terminated, 3) a girl, which we wanted (sorry for the flash of selfishness there, but I'm thinking not all bio-parents are entirely selfless either ), 4) the chance to connect to the Pacific Rim, to which my wife had traveled before, and 5) the ability to adopt at all, because we were both pushing 40, and that's old for most programs.
Certainly there was no "rescuing the infidel" about it.
But I'll say this:
On the first trip, when we got our oldest as a baby, they brought the babies into a big room and, well, passed them out. Chaos, of course; babies crying, new parents crying, CCAA people trying to keep order, whatnot. Peeking in from the hallway was a group of older kids, maybe five or six of them, say 6-10 years old. I noticed them and nodded hello. They came up to me, and one of the boys said, "Hello, what your name?" I answered, "Patrick, what's yours?" All of them told me; every one had a Western name: Ann, Johnny, whatever they were. You could just see the combination of joy for the babies and despair for their own prospects in their eyes. They started to leave, and I turned to go, when the smallest boy came back to me, and pulled on my sleeve.
"MICHAEL!" he shouted, and ran back to join the others. I never knew if he just came up with that, if somebody suggested an Anglo name to him, or if he just got up the guts to talk to me. And damned if that isn't my dead brother's name, and my middle name.
I knew then and there we were going back for an older child. Which we did, a couple of years later.
Hope this helps somebody understand the thought process.
ETA re the second paragraph quoted: Our kids are Chinese. They know that when they look in the mirror. We have tons of Chinese books, and if you see me in February, the first thing I'll say to you is "Gong hey fat choy." And we'll certainly go back someday. I've always joked with friends of Irish descent that I want to get the kids T-shirts that say: "Chinese by birth, American by adoption, and Irish by the grace of God." I need to get around to that by this St. Pat's Day.
Thanks again for reading.
-------------------- Patrick Posts: 576 | From: Illinois | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I love the idea for a t-shirt. Tons of people kept asking us if we were adopting from China. In San Francisco's Chinatown we bought our very pale, red headed daughter a little outfit. It's green silk with embroidery and should fit her by St. Patrick's day. We'll balance each other out.
Every successful adoption story makes me so happy I cry.
Posts: 1168 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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There was a somewhat more detailed article on this topic in the Wall Street Journal today. They contradicted some of what was said in the OP article. For one thing the WSJ article suggested that there will be fewer children to adopt from China because their birth rate is dropping and there isn't as much social pressure against girls.
They also pointed out how unclear these new rules are.
Posts: 1168 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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