quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.: My point was that PETA and Libertarians are organizations that are misogynist. Not that all members are.
No, you never said that. But by including PETA and Libertarians as evidence of misogyny, you certainly implied that all members (or at least a majority) of those organizations were. If the misogyny was a minority of those organizations, then the basic assumption would have to be that a member was not a misogynist.
quote:Belonging to said organizations means that, tacitly, you are lending your support to those organizations. Which means one of three things: You don't care enough about misogyny to make a difference, you support the root purpose of said orgs so strongly that you overlook the misogyny, or you agree with the misogyny existing in said org.
If you fall in the first group, you might as well be in the third. The second is the exclusionary group, the ones true to the cause, like catholics that don't agree with all the church does, but agree with the primary mission.
And how do you know that Bill Maher is in group 1 or 3? It seems that you are using your first point in your original list to determine that he is in group 1 or 3 then using that fact that he is in group 1 or 3 as further proof he is a misogynist.
It is a kind of circular logic. If he is a misogynist, then he is in group 1 or 3. Since he is in group 1 or 3 of a misogynist group, then he is a misogynist. The problem is that if he is not a misogynist, then he is in group 2 and membership in those organizations does not prove his misogyny. Using those organizations only proves your point if your premise is true.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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Seek and ye shall find. Some people see misogyny everywhere they go. I'm not one of those people.
While Bill Maher has made statements that lead me to believe he might be a misogynist, I'd find it hard to label him one without knowing the man personally. It could be real, it could be shtick. I do agree with other statements he's made, though.
I don't agree with Ryda's assertion that "PETA and Libertarians are organizations that are misogynist." There are too many individual members within them that hold different opinions; those two organizations are examples of ones where the members share a few basic beliefs but vary in their extremism or commitment.
Surely someone (Ryda, for example) can find misogyny everywhere they look. I'm probably not going to agree with it, and I don't in this case.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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I used to be a religious watcher of Politically Incorrect, much less so with Real Time with Bill Maher. But I've seen enough to regard the PETA/libertarian/misogynist debate moot as it applies to Maher. He rants fairly constantly about why he can't take feminists seriously, how dese wimmin wanna have everything both ways, etc, and I've always inferred from his tone that his axe to grind with women seemed personal.
-------------------- "Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die." -Malachy McCourt Posts: 85 | From: Newark, Delaware | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.: My point was that PETA and Libertarians are organizations that are misogynist. Not that all members are.
When you refer to Libertarians as an organization, do you mean the Libertarian Party in particular, or just people who advocate a libertarian attitude toward government? I've never heard of conservatism or liberalism referred to as organizations, so I'm just a little thrown off.
Posts: 345 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jul 2006
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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Isn't it PETA's advertising agency that's misogynistic rather than PETA itself? I would say that was evidence of the misogyny of the advertising industry.
When I saw part of this discussion, I assumed that Ryda would be arguing that PETA is against medical testing on animals, and that it had been shown that the majority of drugs tested on animals were to treat specifically female issues that could be fatal, and that therefore PETA itself was inherently misogynistic because its goals had an inevitable adverse effect on women in particular. For example, you might be able to show that PETA had opposed the testing of a new treatment for breast cancer, or something. Note that this is a hypothetical argument, but it would make sense to me if any of it is true.
Using the advertising to demonstrate that it's a misogynistic organisation is a bit weak, unless you think that a significant proportion of their members joined up because they saw the adverts and said "Wahey, naked women! That looks like the society for me!"
(edited to clarify)
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by keokuk: When you refer to Libertarians as an organization, do you mean the Libertarian Party in particular, or just people who advocate a libertarian attitude toward government? I've never heard of conservatism or liberalism referred to as organizations, so I'm just a little thrown off.
It gets muddied because libertarian is both a philosophy and a political party. As a philosophy, it is lower case (like liberal or conservative). But as a political party, it is capitalized like Republican or Democrat.
When refering to an organization, I'd assume she means the party as a philosophy itself isn't an organization. Once it has an organization, then that organization is a proper noun.
Like if I just like to reenact stuff, I'd be a reenactor. But if I joined the Reenactor Guild, then I'd be a Reenactor.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Freshman: But your'e saying they're misogynist just because of Bill Maher.
No. I'm not. They are misogyinist in and of themselves.
quote:Originally posted by Freshman: PETA may objectify women, but have you ever met any other liberatarians that hate women other than Bill??
Yes. See IWF (independent women's forum, i.e. Wendy McElroy) for a blatent example
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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So you're saying all Liberatarians are misognyist?? I really don't think an entire group sets out to be misognyist. It depends on the individual
-------------------- "High-Five!" - Borat Posts: 1056 | From: Racine, WI | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Richard W: Isn't it PETA's advertising agency that's misogynistic rather than PETA itself? I would say that was evidence of the misogyny of the advertising industry.
no. Because they, as an org. (i.e. Newkirk), have refused not to use derogatory language and/or symbolism towards women.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Freshman: So you're saying all Liberatarians are misognyist?
No. Libertarian political goals, as they currently stand in the U.S. is misogynistic.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Freshman: So you're saying all Liberatarians are misognyist?
No. Libertarian political goals, as they currently stand in the U.S. is misogynistic.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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How're the liberatarian goals misogynist? Explain. It still seems that you're judging the goals of liberatarians as a whole based on Maher and IWF
-------------------- "High-Five!" - Borat Posts: 1056 | From: Racine, WI | Registered: Jun 2006
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And, look. Somehow, what I said makes sense to me, and probably just me. Since no one else seems to get it, I'm gonna chalk it up to some wierd, quirky failure in my neural processors.
Sorry, all....Carry on.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Freshman: How're the liberatarian goals misogynist? Explain. It still seems that you're judging the goals of liberatarians as a whole based on Maher and IWF
Eliminating social welfare systems, harassment laws, AA, Title X, etc., before anything is even anywhere near equitable.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Freshman: It's okay. With the exception of harrassment laws, I don't see their positions as sexist, just selfish.
The IWF's opposition to harrassment laws could be argued to be merely selfish, as well. My guess would be that they believe they can handle any guy who comes on too strong, and if some other women can't, well, tough shit.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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If it makes you feel any better Ryda I understood perfectly what you meant. Bill Mahar supports two organizations that you, and presumably others, feel have overall philosophies that are misogynistic. This in and of itself does not mean Mahar is a misogynist, but it is a small piece of information in a case being made for him being a misogynist.
I'm not familiar enough with PETA (though I agree some of their advertising is very sexist) or the big or little libertarians to have a strong opinion. However, I understand what Ryda means. All ducks are birds, but not all birds are ducks.
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by GenYus: It gets muddied because libertarian is both a philosophy and a political party. As a philosophy, it is lower case (like liberal or conservative). But as a political party, it is capitalized like Republican or Democrat.
When refering to an organization, I'd assume she means the party as a philosophy itself isn't an organization. Once it has an organization, then that organization is a proper noun.
That's what I assumed, but Bill Maher has never had any affiliation with the Libertarian Party. He has self-described his own ideology as libertarian in the past, but that would only qualify him as a lower case libertarian without being a member of any such "organization."
Posts: 345 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jul 2006
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I understand what Ryda meant. I don't agree with her opinion though.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Sylvanz: If it makes you feel any better Ryda I understood perfectly what you meant. Bill Mahar supports two organizations that you, and presumably others, feel have overall philosophies that are misogynistic. This in and of itself does not mean Mahar is a misogynist, but it is a small piece of information in a case being made for him being a misogynist.
I'm not familiar enough with PETA (though I agree some of their advertising is very sexist) or the big or little libertarians to have a strong opinion. However, I understand what Ryda means. All ducks are birds, but not all birds are ducks.
P&LL, Syl
Same here on this whole post.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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And Misogynistic or not, PETA is nutball-laden, so there's always that to fall back on.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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I don't get it, what's that thing sticking out of his chest supposed to be? it looks like he's at a halloween party.
-------------------- a moment for old friends now estranged, victims of the flux of alliances and changing perceptions. There was something there once, and that something is worth honoring as well. - John Carroll Posts: 3375 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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He's Steve Irwin with a stingray in his chest.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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-------------------- And always remember....when life hands you Lemons, ask for tequila and salt and call me over !!!!! Posts: 521 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: Mar 2006
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what a nfbsk. I suddenly like him a lot less.
-------------------- a moment for old friends now estranged, victims of the flux of alliances and changing perceptions. There was something there once, and that something is worth honoring as well. - John Carroll Posts: 3375 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.: And, look. Somehow, what I said makes sense to me, and probably just me. Since no one else seems to get it, I'm gonna chalk it up to some wierd, quirky failure in my neural processors.
Sorry, all....Carry on.
Oh no, you don't get off that easy, you have some splaining to do here(said in spanish accent)!!!
-------------------- And always remember....when life hands you Lemons, ask for tequila and salt and call me over !!!!! Posts: 521 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: Mar 2006
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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quote:Originally posted by Freshman: Jesus, where's that picture from? did he take ectasy?
Probably not; he looks like he has a similar complexion to me, and I turn purple and sweaty just through alcohol. (See current profile picture for evidence.) Sometimes even alcohol isn't required. A purple face clashes with orange hair, and he's not in flattering light.
I can see how Libertarianism is misogynistic, but it's pretty much anti- members of any currently weaker group. Or just weak people in general.
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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The libertarian philosophy on some things is exactly what a misogynist would want, but it is not, per se, misogynist. Principally, the libertarian philosophy says that a private citizen (or corporation, which is a group of private citizens) should be allowed to treat men and women differently, but the government should not. The former appears misogynist when it defends banks not lending to women; the latter, when it defends a fire department that holds male and female applicants to exactly the same standards on a fitness test.
-------------------- "Well, it looks we're on our own ... again."--Rev. Lovejoy Posts: 3572 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: Sep 2003
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