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Author Topic: Holocaust? Never Happened
PatYoung
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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NY Times says:

TEHRAN, Dec. 11 — Holocaust deniers and skeptics from around the world gathered at a government-sponsored conference here today to discuss their theories about whether six million Jews were indeed killed by the Nazis during World War II and whether gas chambers existed.

In a speech opening the two-day conference, Rasoul Mousavi, head of the Iranian Foreign Ministry’s Institute for Political and International Studies, which organized the event, said it was an opportunity for scholars to discuss the subject “away from Western taboos and the restriction imposed on them in Europe.”

The foreign ministry had said that 67 foreign researchers from 30 countries were scheduled to take part. Among those speaking today are David Duke, the American white-supremacist politician and former Ku Klux Klan leader, and Georges Thiel, a French writer who has been prosecuted in France over his denials of the Holocaust.

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pat "Megadittoes Rush" young

THUMP, THUMP, THUMP

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Jenn
Layaway in a Manger


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A link would be nice.

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"You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!"

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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Here you go.

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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I'm 20th Century Fox
Happy Holly Days


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And I thought nothing surprised me anymore.

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When my chin is on the ground I pick myself up, dust myself off and start all over again.

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PatYoung
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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A real brain trust has been assembled.

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pat "Megadittoes Rush" young

THUMP, THUMP, THUMP

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Mama Duck
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I really was hoping David Duke would have died by now.

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There is no interpersonal problem so big that it can't be solved with a suitably large amount of high explosives. ~ Bufungla

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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quote:
Bendikt Frings, 48, a psychologist from Germany, said he believed Mr. Ahmadinejad was “an honest direct man,” and said he had come to the conference to thank him for what he had initiated.
Ah yes. The president of Iran is an honest, direct man. (See, it rhymes, so it must be true!)

Jeez.

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"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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I've considered both sides of this - and my conclusions are fully in support of a Holocaust having taken place.

I mean, even if the numbers are inflated by 50%, there are still multi-MILLIONS of people that died. There are also TOO many eye-witnesses from the liberating forces and the actual workers in the camps that saw the ovens and gas chambers for them to have NOT been there.

Sorry, deniers are denied.

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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Archie2K
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
it was an opportunity for scholars to discuss the subject “away from Western taboos and the restriction imposed on them in Europe.”
Holocaust Denial laws are pretty stupid. I'm glad the UK hasn't gone down the line of instituting them.

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Vox populi vox canem

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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I'll have to agree with that, actually. There are no aboriginal genocide denial laws anywhere. 'Course, it's not as common, but hey, I'd be a hypocrite if I felt that this should trump freedom of speech when I've always been one of its staunchest (is that a word?) defenders.

So long as the denier is not calling for violence it's a good way to see who the idiots are.

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"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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PallasAthena
Xboxing Day


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So I am honestly curious. What do these people think happened? Do they think Auschwitz was retro-fitted with gas chambers and ovens to make it into a tourist attraction? Do they all just think it is one giant conspiracy theory? (I think I know the answer to that one)

quote:
Mr. Duke’s remarks late this afternoon are expected to assert that no gas chambers or extermination camps were actually built during the war, on the ground that killing Jews that way would have been much too bothersome and expensive when the Nazis could have used much simpler methods, according to an advance summary of his speech published by the institute.
Wouldn't it have been exponentially more bothersome and expensive to stage the whole thing? I believe that many times, the simplest and most reasonable explanation is the correct explanation, and in this case, the simplest explanation is that the holocaust actually took place.

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"How do you make chocolate? You take dark chocolate, you mix it with white milk, and it becomes a delicious drink. That is the chocolate I am talking about." --Ray Nagin

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Billy Biggles
Deck the Malls


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I sometimes wonder what is in Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's head that we cannot dislodge by turning him upside down and gently shaking him, all the while shouting "That's the way to do it!"

Mahmoud al-Safadi, who has something of a dodgy past with regards to Israel, has told Ahmadinejad he is making a mistake, although some would say

quote:
Perhaps you see Holocaust denial as an expression of support for the Palestinians ... Here, too, you are wrong. We struggle for our existence and our rights, and against the historic injustice that was dealt us in 1948.

Our success and our independence will not be gained by denying the genocide perpetrated against the Jewish people, even if parts of this people are the very forces that occupy and dispossess us to this day.

is possibly more diplomatic than my preferred phrase which is that Ahmadenijad is a prize pillock. Although (to be fair) he has invited Khaled Mahameed, whose choice of Nazareth for the first Arabic Holocaust Museum is nothing less than perfect. Maybe there's a smidgen, a brushstroke, a scintilla of common sense in there.

After all, in September he organized a Holocaust Cartoon Competition that ordinary Iranians found offensive.

quote:
Most of those approached in central Tehran said they had not heard of the exhibition and insisted the slaughter of six million Jews by the Nazis was a historical fact. "I'm sure the Holocaust was true - I've heard all about it from newspapers and television," said a housewife from a religious family. "I don't know why some say it didn't happen."
If there's hope, it lies with the proles. Remember that.

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Cogito ergo sum, non sum qualis eram. Putting Descartes before the Horace every time.

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happyholidaysfrog
Jingle Bell Hock


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I think Holocaust Denial Laws are ok for the countries that it happened in. I think that they have that right because it happened there, on that ground, and I think it's profane to stand on the ground that so much blood was spilled and so many bright lives were extinguished and say it never happened.

For the the rest of the world, I agree with Maple Leaf, not having those laws just shows us who the idiots are.

I just don't understand how people can say the Holocaust never happened when there is so much overwhelming proof, everything from eye-witnesses from many countries and so many people still alive that have numbers tattooed on them and a head full of faces they see everytime they close their eyes.

Yeah, I believe in free speech, but I do not think a person should have the right to tell people who lived through a genocide on the ground it happened on that it never occured.

I don't think this encroaches on free speech any more then the law that prevented that Phelps person from protesting military funerals(though I think they should have made it across the board, no protesting at funerals, period).

That's just me though and if anyone can convince me otherwise I'll tip my hat to you.

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~All we see or seem is but a dream within a dream~
E.A.Poe

Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
~James Dean~

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Lydia Oh Lydia
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by PallasAthena:
So I am honestly curious. What do these people think happened? Do they think Auschwitz was retro-fitted with gas chambers and ovens to make it into a tourist attraction? Do they all just think it is one giant conspiracy theory? (I think I know the answer to that one)

I had the misfortune of encountering one of these people in real life once. He claimed that there were no gas chambers. People (the Jews?) made up the idea of gas chambers. And that people mistook showers for gas chambers. He also claimed that the official number of people who died in the Holocaust (or at least the offical estimate) could not be accurate because there weren't that many people in Europe at that time. This was a very long time ago. Maybe 15 years or so. These are the main points I remember.

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"My name is the symbol for my identity and must not be lost." Motto of the Lucy Stone League.

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Pseudo_Croat
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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All the prominent Holocaust deniers were in the same place as the President of Iran? Someone ought to have dropped the bomb on them while they were there! Two birds, one stone. Nice and tidy.

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"At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

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PallasAthena
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by Lydia Oh Lydia:
quote:
Originally posted by PallasAthena:
So I am honestly curious. What do these people think happened? Do they think Auschwitz was retro-fitted with gas chambers and ovens to make it into a tourist attraction? Do they all just think it is one giant conspiracy theory? (I think I know the answer to that one)

I had the misfortune of encountering one of these people in real life once. He claimed that there were no gas chambers. People (the Jews?) made up the idea of gas chambers. And that people mistook showers for gas chambers. He also claimed that the official number of people who died in the Holocaust (or at least the offical estimate) could not be accurate because there weren't that many people in Europe at that time. This was a very long time ago. Maybe 15 years or so. These are the main points I remember.
And the ovens? Were they part of the "Happy Nazi Pottery Center"? Honestly, this just blows my mind.

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"How do you make chocolate? You take dark chocolate, you mix it with white milk, and it becomes a delicious drink. That is the chocolate I am talking about." --Ray Nagin

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Lydia Oh Lydia
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by PallasAthena:
And the ovens? Were they part of the "Happy Nazi Pottery Center"? Honestly, this just blows my mind.

You just reminded me. According to this guy, there were ovens. But they were used for burning trash not people.

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"My name is the symbol for my identity and must not be lost." Motto of the Lucy Stone League.

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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You know, they could have held their meeting here: Washington D.C., I'm sure they would have found space for all of the participants.

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And now for something completely different...

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Delta-V
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat:
All the prominent Holocaust deniers were in the same place as the President of Iran? Someone ought to have dropped the bomb on them while they were there! Two birds, one stone. Nice and tidy.

Where's a Predator when you need one? Sounds like several birds with one stone, even...

Even more devestating would be to videotape these bozos so everybody can know what garbage they believe...

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"My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere

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Unusual Elfin Lights
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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There is an Arab-Israeli who is at the conference to speak that denial of the Holocaust is a mistake.

It is the first story on part 2.

I found him to be interesting, and hopefully influential.

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FullMetal
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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I don't mind that they argue about whether or not it happened the way it is presented. but to argue that those 6 million PEOPLE died, is appaling to me.

Human life is a rare gift, anyone who's tried to have a child knows just how difficult it is to do sometimes. To cast aside the lives of 6 million people as if they never existed is wrong to me somehow. I don't understand how someone can look at a huge loss of life, and say, "ya, that never happened. it's all a conspiracy" What about the families of those affected? is their loss purely in their head?

this goes tof a lot of nay-sayers, and conspriacy theorists. the people who say that an airplane didn't crash into the pentagon. where are those people who were on the "fictitious" flight? What about the families of them? is their pain and sense of loss also "fictitious"? just like the people who say the holocaust never happened. what about those pictures of emaciated people? The mass graves? the families of the people in those mass graves?

there's a reason why the people who make up these "conspiracies" do it. It's hatred. pure and simple. Iran definately hates the Jews. as do the KKK, that's been known for a very long time. and it's bred on mistrust, and as such will be near impossible to stop. So I don't intend that. I'd just like these people to see the other side of the coin. see this happen to their family, and see people claiming the death of their loved ones never happened.

But maybe I'm just being silly, I mean bringing a human side into the debate. afterall it's just numbers right? That number 6 million. it's just a 6 followed by six zeroes right? just a number. Just a number. that's 6 million brothers and sisters and parents and children, and aunts, and uncles and cousins and wives and husbands.

Bah these people make me sick. Sorry for blathering...

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Il-Mari
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Lydia Oh Lydia:
quote:
Originally posted by PallasAthena:
So I am honestly curious. What do these people think happened? Do they think Auschwitz was retro-fitted with gas chambers and ovens to make it into a tourist attraction? Do they all just think it is one giant conspiracy theory? (I think I know the answer to that one)

I had the misfortune of encountering one of these people in real life once. He claimed that there were no gas chambers. People (the Jews?) made up the idea of gas chambers. And that people mistook showers for gas chambers. He also claimed that the official number of people who died in the Holocaust (or at least the offical estimate) could not be accurate because there weren't that many people in Europe at that time. This was a very long time ago. Maybe 15 years or so. These are the main points I remember.
Wait, did he say that there weren't that many people in Europe, or that there weren't as many Jews in Europe as were killed as a result of the Nazis (that's the version I've heard)?

I've heard people take some of the upper level estimates of the total number of people killed by the Nazis and then use that as 'proof' that the holocaust didn't happen since there weren't that many Jews in Europe at the time, which ignores the fact that many figures also include the other civilians killed by Nazis (Roma, Poles, Gays, Communists, Jehovah's Witnesses, the disabled, etc.) - but saying there weren't enough people in Europe to account for the death toll would be pretty ludicrous.

- Il-Mari

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When you mix faith with science, you serve neither and weaken both.

- Richard P. Sloan and Larry VandeCreek

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat:
All the prominent Holocaust deniers were in the same place as the President of Iran? Someone ought to have dropped the bomb on them while they were there! Two birds, one stone. Nice and tidy.

You see? The Dark Side isn't so bad! Come! Join us! Forget all that Jedi nonsense about being kind to the poor misguided nutballs and dictators!

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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NancyFancyPants
Deck the Malls


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Maybe we should drop them all into the pile of human ash that remains at Auschwitz. A full immersion baptism in the truth.

In the course of my work, I've met the people, seen the tattoos, heard the stories. We have a Holocaust education center here in Pittsburgh that has an outstanding program, sending survivors into the local schools to tell their stories to the students. If you ever want a good cry, watch this: From Pittsburgh to Poland: Lessons of the Holocaust.

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And on the 7th day, God said, "Let there be lips!"

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Unusual Elfin Lights:
There is an Arab-Israeli who is at the conference to speak that denial of the Holocaust is a mistake.

It is the first story on part 2.

I found him to be interesting, and hopefully influential.

Ahmadinejad wants to contrast Western countries where holocaust denial is illegal with supposedly more open Iran.

As with the holocaust cartoon competition, the purpose of this conference is to humiliate the West in general and the Jews in particular. Giving the impression that Iran has freedom of speech on this issue is an integral part of the whole package on display.

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"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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Billy Biggles
Deck the Malls


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I believe that for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows.

Unfortunately I also have to keep reminding myself that for every silver lining there's a nfbsking enormous black cloud.

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Cogito ergo sum, non sum qualis eram. Putting Descartes before the Horace every time.

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Lydia Oh Lydia
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Il-Mari:
Wait, did he say that there weren't that many people in Europe, or that there weren't as many Jews in Europe as were killed as a result of the Nazis (that's the version I've heard)?

I've heard people take some of the upper level estimates of the total number of people killed by the Nazis and then use that as 'proof' that the holocaust didn't happen since there weren't that many Jews in Europe at the time, which ignores the fact that many figures also include the other civilians killed by Nazis (Roma, Poles, Gays, Communists, Jehovah's Witnesses, the disabled, etc.) - but saying there weren't enough people in Europe to account for the death toll would be pretty ludicrous.

- Il-Mari

Nope, according to that guy, there weren't that many people around, esp. in Poland.

Really, I remember being around 18 when I met that guy who was an acquaintance of someone I knew. I seriously thought he was making a bad joke, just trying to argue with someone. Part of me still didn't believe he was serious, even when he said he was. Later, I learned there was a whole group of people who thought like him.

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"My name is the symbol for my identity and must not be lost." Motto of the Lucy Stone League.

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Floater
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by Lydia Oh Lydia:
Nope, according to that guy, there weren't that many people around, esp. in Poland.

I wonder what my former, half Polish, girlfriend, who had relatives killed in Auschwitz, would say about that.

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Små hönor skall inte lägga stora ägg för då blir de slarviga i ändan

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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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pah. we all know the Holocaust denial movement was set up by teh j00z to distract us from the real conspiracy.

Jona "hmm....run the world and have enormous wealth, you say? perhaps I should convert..." than

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Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Holocaust Denial laws are pretty stupid.
I agree. Holocaust denial should be fought with solid argumentation, not with censorship laws. It's not like there is a lack of evidence, use that instead of stopping the discussion.

quote:
And that people mistook showers for gas chambers.
Yeah, that's an easy mistake to make. People often die by the thousands in showers..

quote:
He also claimed that the official number of people who died in the Holocaust (or at least the offical estimate) could not be accurate because there weren't that many people in Europe at that time.
There was that many people in Europe efter the black plague hit, there was certainly that many during WW2. Heck, the Soviets alone lost some 19 million to the Germans!

quote:
I don't mind that they argue about whether or not it happened the way it is presented. but to argue that those 6 million PEOPLE died, is appaling to me.
I hope you forgot some negation in there.

And, to be honest, it was far more than 6 million. Remember, it was not just Jews, it was communists, handicapped, religious sects, homosexuals and people who just got in the way.

quote:
As with the holocaust cartoon competition, the purpose of this conference is to humiliate the West in general and the Jews in particular. Giving the impression that Iran has freedom of speech on this issue is an integral part of the whole package on display.
Yep, I agree. For A (I don't bother trying to get his name right anymore), this issue is just a handy tool, the outcome of this conference is not important to him.

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/Troberg

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I wonder what my former, half Polish, girlfriend
Didn't she fall over all the time? [fish]

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/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Daniceguy
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Naaaah. That would've been a former, Polish, half-girlfriend.

[fish]
[fish]
[fish]

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"Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes!"

"No it isn't."

Posts: 171 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Here is an article from the BBC about a Jewish group that is attending. Apparently this sect does not believe that it is proper for the Jews to use political and military means to take back the Holy Land, but to wait for God to do it in His own way and time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6171503.stm

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
   

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