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Author Topic: Two New (?) Christian (?) Heresies
Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
"Intolerant?" We believe that all truth comes from God. Accordingly, if we find congruencies between Christianity and other religions, then it means that He is responsible for them. How is that intolerant?
well...

hows this for starters?

quote:
Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.
quote:

14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

quote:

4 "I will stretch out my hand against Judah
and against all who live in Jerusalem.
I will cut off from this place every remnant of Baal,
the names of the pagan and the idolatrous priests-

5 those who bow down on the roofs
to worship the starry host,
those who bow down and swear by the LORD
and who also swear by Molech

quote:
for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire.
My post simply said that the "all-gods-as-prefiguring" attitude seemed to be an attempt to avoid those parts of the Bible, and the Christian tradition, which are religiously intolerant. These are some of the parts I meant, particularly the first. there are others.

go to biblegateway.com and stick in some terms - idol, pagan, heathen, unbeliever - for an idea of what I'm getting at.

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
My post simply said that the "all-gods-as-prefiguring" attitude seemed to be an attempt to avoid those parts of the Bible, and the Christian tradition, which are religiously intolerant. These are some of the parts I meant, particularly the first. there are others.

go to biblegateway.com and stick in some terms - idol, pagan, heathen, unbeliever - for an idea of what I'm getting at. [/QB]

Thank you for your clarification. The kindest thing I can say is that you are taking the passages in question out of context. Not only their literary contexts, but their historical, social, and even political contexts.

--------------------
"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Loyhargil
We Three Blings


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Elkhound, thank you for pointing out one of my Biblical annoyances. It gets my goat when someone passes judgment on the Bible, or almost any religious or secular text or statement for that matter, without regard for the TOTAL context of the statement.

To draw a crappy analogy, that'd be like reading The Scarlet Letter and saying, "Geez, so she had an illegitimate kid, why does everyone have their panties in a bunch? Just call Maury Povich and let it out on national tv!"

--------------------
Bender: Oh cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones, it bones for thee.

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Jonny T, the quotes you have are from the "Law", and the Old Testament. There is a large section of Christians that believe that the Old Law is gone and that the laws of Jesus have replaced them.

Well, except for that, "teh Gey is of teh Debil" part... [lol]

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
. . . The kindest thing I can say is that you are taking the passages in question out of context. Not only their literary contexts, but their historical, social, and even political contexts.

What context can justify the language quoted? The Bible has God saying these things. Maybe God has changed his mind, and repented of his anger, but he nevertheless did say these things (in the Bible.)

You can't use "context" as a universal defense to whitewash all the evil things that God says in the Bible. They are still evil things to have said.

Silas

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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Malruhn, check your bible. the first and second quotes are from Epistles from Paul. Corinthians, to be precise. New Testament - NOT the law. (another of my pet annoyances)

I do find it amusing when the fluffy bits of the bible (do unto others, etc.) are taken as timeless truths, and the less pleasant bits matter only in context.

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
"Intolerant?" We believe that all truth comes from God. Accordingly, if we find congruencies between Christianity and other religions, then it means that He is responsible for them. How is that intolerant?

It's not "intolerant" per se, but some people find it insulting, or at least patronizing.

Imagine, for instance, how you would feel if a Hindu said, "Jesus was just one of the avatars of Shiva. While you only worship one small piece of the god, we worship his entirety."

Silas

Don't know about Elkhound, but I certainly would not find that insulting or patronizing. I would be pleased that the Hindu had taken the trouble to learn a little about Christianity and compare it with his own religion. It might even be the basis for the two of us to search for the truth together.

The people whom I do find insulting and patronizing are those who say "My religion (or lack thereof) is true for me and the parts of your religion which contradict it are true for you." And implicitly adding "So let's forget about the whole subject, because where the truth really lies is irrelevant or at least unimportant."

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
quote:
"Intolerant?" We believe that all truth comes from God. Accordingly, if we find congruencies between Christianity and other religions, then it means that He is responsible for them. How is that intolerant?
well...

hows this for starters?

quote:
Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.
quote:

14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

quote:

4 "I will stretch out my hand against Judah
and against all who live in Jerusalem.
I will cut off from this place every remnant of Baal,
the names of the pagan and the idolatrous priests-

5 those who bow down on the roofs
to worship the starry host,
those who bow down and swear by the LORD
and who also swear by Molech

quote:
for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire.
My post simply said that the "all-gods-as-prefiguring" attitude seemed to be an attempt to avoid those parts of the Bible, and the Christian tradition, which are religiously intolerant. These are some of the parts I meant, particularly the first. there are others.

go to biblegateway.com and stick in some terms - idol, pagan, heathen, unbeliever - for an idea of what I'm getting at.

You seem to think that believing (as is logical) that other religions are wrong where they contradict one's own religion is "intolerance". Or perhaps you only apply this to Christians and Jews? It seems you would only release them from the charge of "intolerance" if the Bible was full of God saying "Worship Me, or Baal, or whoever.... I don't care, it's all good."
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Damian
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by God Himself:
Then God spoke all these words: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

Doesn't say "There are no other gods".

--------------------
"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie." - Tony Montana

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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
You seem to think that believing (as is logical) that other religions are wrong where they contradict one's own religion is "intolerance". Or perhaps you only apply this to Christians and Jews? It seems you would only release them from the charge of "intolerance" if the Bible was full of God saying "Worship Me, or Baal, or whoever.... I don't care, it's all good."
There's a massive difference between "your religion is wrong" (which is only "logical" to a certain mindset anyway) and "you worship Satan".

--------------------
Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

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hoitoider
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Is the 'unknown god' another god?

"Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you." (Acts 17:22-23)

Basically I think Paul was thrilled to find someone worshipping a god w/out any physical image instead of a statue of Zeus.

--------------------
No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie

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abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I always heard it explained that they were "covering the bases" in case they had missed one. Paul took advantage of this to explain his message about God.

--------------------
Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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hoitoider
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by abbubmah:
I always heard it explained that they were "covering the bases" in case they had missed one. Paul took advantage of this to explain his message about God.

I'm not sure what you mean. The thing that supposedly makes God jealous is the worship of physical objects. For example, in Ezekiel 8, God goes nuts b/c in the Temple people are worshipping a statue of Baal and animal images painted on the wall.

--------------------
No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie

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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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No,the thing that makes God jealous is the worship of other gods. Jehovah-only and no idolatry get separate commandments, for one.

--------------------
Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
quote:
You seem to think that believing (as is logical) that other religions are wrong where they contradict one's own religion is "intolerance". Or perhaps you only apply this to Christians and Jews? It seems you would only release them from the charge of "intolerance" if the Bible was full of God saying "Worship Me, or Baal, or whoever.... I don't care, it's all good."
There's a massive difference between "your religion is wrong" (which is only "logical" to a certain mindset anyway) and "you worship Satan".
As mentioned above, to concede that there is a supernatural element in another's religion is paying them a compliment, not insulting them. And if something supernatural is not holy, it must be unholy. Thank God most people here don't share your view that it's somehow possible for two contradictory beliefs to both be right; otherwise we'd never be able to logically discuss anything.
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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
No,the thing that makes God jealous is the worship of other gods. Jehovah-only and no idolatry get separate commandments, for one.

Not according to the way most Christians and Jews number them.
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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Ten Commandments article on Wikipedia. go to "Division of the commandments".

oh, and -
quote:
As mentioned above, to concede that there is a supernatural element in another's religion is paying them a compliment, not insulting them. And if something supernatural is not holy, it must be unholy. Thank God most people here don't share your view that it's somehow possible for two contradictory beliefs to both be right; otherwise we'd never be able to logically discuss anything.
Are you seriously suggesting that non-Christians, when accused of devil worship, should take it as a compliment?

And also - I never said what I believe, I only pointed out flaws in arguments put across by others. I have no fixed view on the matter and care more about how a religion's teachings cause its believers to act in the here and now.

--------------------
Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
quote:
As mentioned above, to concede that there is a supernatural element in another's religion is paying them a compliment, not insulting them. And if something supernatural is not holy, it must be unholy. Thank God most people here don't share your view that it's somehow possible for two contradictory beliefs to both be right; otherwise we'd never be able to logically discuss anything.
Are you seriously suggesting that non-Christians, when accused of devil worship, should take it as a compliment?
Do you think they would rather that those of other religions think that they are liars/hypocrites/imbeciles/insane/"pulling it all out of their a..." etc? I wouldn't. Again I refer you to where this point was made earlier.
quote:

And also - I never said what I believe, I only pointed out flaws in arguments put across by others. I have no fixed view on the matter and care more about how a religion's teachings cause its believers to act in the here and now.

You said that it "is only "logical" to a certain mindset" to think that other religions are wrong where they contradict one's own religion. Does this not mean "it's somehow possible for two contradictory beliefs to both be right"? Or do you think this is also "only logical to a certain mindset"?
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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Do you think they would rather that those of other religions think that they are liars/hypocrites/imbeciles/insane/"pulling it all out of their a..." etc? I wouldn't. Again I refer you to where this point was made earlier.
How about "hold beliefs I do not share"? or is it impossible for you to say anything even neutral (forget positive) when comparing other religions' status to your own?

quote:
You said that it "is only "logical" to a certain mindset" to think that other religions are wrong where they contradict one's own religion. Does this not mean "it's somehow possible for two contradictory beliefs to both be right"? Or do you think this is also "only logical to a certain mindset"?
It is only logical to a certain mindset because not everybody shares the belief that there is one single truth which other beliefs are to be judged against.

--------------------
Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Do you know what the ancient Caananite religion involved? They would make a statue of their god Moloch hollow, with a furnace inside the lower part. They'd fire the furnace up until the idol got really hot, then they'd put live babies in the statue's arms and beat drums to drown out their screaming. Any wonder that the authors of the Hebrew Scriptures got bent out of shape about that sort of thing?

--------------------
"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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And the God of the Old Testament was such a lover of babies:

Hosea 13 (NIV)
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Do you know what the ancient Caananite religion involved? They would make a statue of their god Moloch hollow, with a furnace inside the lower part. They'd fire the furnace up until the idol got really hot, then they'd put live babies in the statue's arms and beat drums to drown out their screaming. Any wonder that the authors of the Hebrew Scriptures got bent out of shape about that sort of thing?
Nice. Now, if you'd consider the New Testament verses - the ones that are not about the Canaanites - maybe you'd have an argument.

Also, Canaanite != Every Other Religion.

Also, the accuracy of the accounts of sacrifices to Moloch is questioned by some scholars as potentially wartime propaganda.

--------------------
Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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The Modern Reformed Church of Moloch has had to substitute Baby-Burp-And-Wet dolls for their sacrifices, a matter of abstract symbolism. Conservatives argue for a return to the use of actual babies, whereas Liberals suggest that even more abstraction -- e.g., pictures of babies -- might be more appropriate, and would draw off unwanted publicity.

High Priestess Neffer, dancing nude before the furnaces, was unavailable for comment.

A spokesman for the Phansigar Cult of Kali ("Thugee" or "Dacoity") expressed sympathy for the rival death-cult of Moloch, noting how difficult it is to obtain willing human sacrifices, and how intolerant the "secular humanist" laws are which ban taking sacrifices by force.

Silas

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
[QB]
quote:
Do you think they would rather that those of other religions think that they are liars/hypocrites/imbeciles/insane/"pulling it all out of their a..." etc? I wouldn't. Again I refer you to where this point was made earlier.
How about "hold beliefs I do not share"? or is it impossible for you to say anything even neutral (forget positive) when comparing other religions' status to your own?

How about trying to distinguish between "saying" and thinking? Of course most people speak polite white lies to each other all the time. Any person of sound mind can see that if "A is B" is true, then "A is not B" must be false. That doesn't mean that those who think that A is B have to go around constantly telling those who think A is not B that they're wrong.
quote:

quote:
You said that it "is only "logical" to a certain mindset" to think that other religions are wrong where they contradict one's own religion. Does this not mean "it's somehow possible for two contradictory beliefs to both be right"? Or do you think this is also "only logical to a certain mindset"?
It is only logical to a certain mindset because not everybody shares the belief that there is one single truth which other beliefs are to be judged against.
If your "mindset" makes you seriously think that it is possible that there can be multiple equally true "truths" which all contradict each other, I don't see any point discussing the matter (or indeed any matter) further with you.
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Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


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The first idea is a pretty old one.

In middle-agic epics such as the "Song of Roland", the Muslims are descripted as strange devil-worshipping pagans (their God being referred to as both "Lucifer" or "Jupiter"), evil to the core, but yet able of heroic deeds (old recipe: demonize the enemy, but represent him as a formidable fighter, or else your heroes will look crappy)- it's still used today, in films, books, news and politics.

As for the time-travel stuff, I never heard of it. I guess it goes in the same bag as God putting fake dinosaur bones into the ground to test the faithful... just the good old PCM attitude to make the facts fit the dogma.

--------------------
Desperate, but not serious.

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Howard
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
[QB]
quote:
Do you think they would rather that those of other religions think that they are liars/hypocrites/imbeciles/insane/"pulling it all out of their a..." etc? I wouldn't. Again I refer you to where this point was made earlier.
How about "hold beliefs I do not share"? or is it impossible for you to say anything even neutral (forget positive) when comparing other religions' status to your own?

How about trying to distinguish between "saying" and thinking? Of course most people speak polite white lies to each other all the time. Any person of sound mind can see that if "A is B" is true, then "A is not B" must be false. That doesn't mean that those who think that A is B have to go around constantly telling those who think A is not B that they're wrong.
quote:

quote:
You said that it "is only "logical" to a certain mindset" to think that other religions are wrong where they contradict one's own religion. Does this not mean "it's somehow possible for two contradictory beliefs to both be right"? Or do you think this is also "only logical to a certain mindset"?
It is only logical to a certain mindset because not everybody shares the belief that there is one single truth which other beliefs are to be judged against.
If your "mindset" makes you seriously think that it is possible that there can be multiple equally true "truths" which all contradict each other, I don't see any point discussing the matter (or indeed any matter) further with you.

You're just cranky because you follow the wrong truth.

--------------------
"I believe you believe that, but I just think you're confused."

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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
I don't see any point discussing the matter (or indeed any matter) further with you.
well, it's been fun. have a nice evening, now.

oh, and your mum smells of wee.

--------------------
Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

Posts: 2731 | From: York/Reading, England | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
oh, and your mum smells of wee.

You've met me mum!

Silas

Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Howard:
You're just cranky because you follow the wrong truth.

Not cranky, just see no point in trying to have a logical discussion with someone who thinks something can be both "wrong" and "truth".
Posts: 670 | From: Australia | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
quote:
Originally posted by Howard:
You're just cranky because you follow the wrong truth.

Not cranky, just see no point in trying to have a logical discussion with someone who thinks something can be both "wrong" and "truth".
That's easy: someone who says, "It is a commandment of God that you shall not murder" is holding a true view, for the wrong reason. Murder is bad...but not because God said so.

If you wish, you can stand that on its head: you probably would hold that my views on murder are both true and wrong.

Silas

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
And the God of the Old Testament was such a lover of babies:

Hosea 13 (NIV)
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

Just because God through Hosea predicted that this would happen doesn't mean that He approved of it. IIRC, it was the Assyrians who did these things, not the army of th Southern Kingdom.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
Nice. Now, if you'd consider the New Testament verses - the ones that are not about the Canaanites - maybe you'd have an argument.

[/QB]

Again, context is everything. The early Christians were a small sect, subject to persecution at worst, discrimination at best. Outward conformity was a grave temptation; unfortunately, there is a fine line between outward conformity with mental reservations and hypocracy. Hence, a certain amount of rigidity in outlook was necessary in order to maintain the new Faith's integrety.

Please recall that Paul's epistles were not speculative theological essays written in a vaccuum, but letters written to specific communities in response to specific situations and specific questions. Alas, we have only one side of the conversation, so interpreting them is sometimes like listening to some of Bob Newhart's telephone monologues.

--------------------
"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
quote:
Originally posted by Howard:
You're just cranky because you follow the wrong truth.

Not cranky, just see no point in trying to have a logical discussion with someone who thinks something can be both "wrong" and "truth".
That's easy: someone who says, "It is a commandment of God that you shall not murder" is holding a true view, for the wrong reason. Murder is bad...but not because God said so.

If you wish, you can stand that on its head: you probably would hold that my views on murder are both true and wrong.

Silas

[Big Grin] You get an A for effort if nothing else, but your argument is fundamentally flawed. The statement contains two parts. You agree that the "murder is bad" part is true/right, and you believe that the "God said so" part is false/wrong. That doesn't make the whole statement "both true and wrong". As a whole it is, in your opinion, partly true and partly wrong.
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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Again, context is everything. The early Christians were a small sect, subject to persecution at worst, discrimination at best. Outward conformity was a grave temptation; unfortunately, there is a fine line between outward conformity with mental reservations and hypocracy. Hence, a certain amount of rigidity in outlook was necessary in order to maintain the new Faith's integrety.
Another question then:

All of the bible is subject to context, in as much as it is a product of the time it was written and when the events depicted took place*. how, then, does one discern between those pieces which should be rejected as a product of their time and no longer relevant, and those which remain relevant to the present day?

(* assuming for now that they did, in fact, take place...)

if your answer is basically to apply one's own reason to the text and judge based on those which seem most valuable - the tactful way of saying pick and choose what's in agreement with one's own views - then fair enough.

quote:
Please recall that Paul's epistles were not speculative theological essays written in a vaccuum, but letters written to specific communities in response to specific situations and specific questions. Alas, we have only one side of the conversation, so interpreting them is sometimes like listening to some of Bob Newhart's telephone monologues.
Agreed.

I know I'm coming across as very hostile here but that is more out of curiosity than anything else. I tend to hang out with a lot of people who hold similar views to your own while identifying as Christians and I've never been sure just how that view ties in with more traditional Christianity.

I do still identify to a large extent with the Christian tradition, but concluded it wasn't that useful as a social label, given my views and actions.

- Jonathan

--------------------
Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

Posts: 2731 | From: York/Reading, England | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
Another question then:

All of the bible is subject to context, in as much as it is a product of the time it was written and when the events depicted took place*. how, then, does one discern between those pieces which should be rejected as a product of their time and no longer relevant, and those which remain relevant to the present day?

(* assuming for now that they did, in fact, take place...)

if your answer is basically to apply one's own reason to the text and judge based on those which seem most valuable - the tactful way of saying pick and choose what's in agreement with one's own views - then fair enough.

[/QB]

In my church (Anglican/Episcopal) they talk about "scripture, reason, and tradition" when dealing with these issues. Scripture and reason are obvious, what they mean by tradition is the works and ideas of the past 20 centuries of theologans, much as any philosophy builds upon the ideas of previous philosophers.

You really can't just open up the Bible and find a verse and read it literally, out of context, and come up with the accurate meaning. That goes for all the verses, "fluffy" or mean. You have to understand who wrote them, when and where they wrote them, why they wrote them, and the language they were originally written in and how well it translates. Lots of words in Hebrew simply don't have an accurate counterpart in English.

Since most people aren't historical scholars and linguists, most people can't just open the Bible, pick a quote, and know what it was really talking about.

Some Christians think the Bible OUGHT to be easily read in that way - I guess like a good cook book or something - but it is merely a collection of different books written by different people over several thousandy years and while I believe there is truth in it to be found, it's not to be found without a bit of work.

~the Islaam/devil thing was nicely explained by Callee, IMO.

Also IMO the shockwave thing is kinda sketchy, and if this guy is wanting to keep to orthodox Christian belief, I don't think there is anything in it to support that. Just IMO, I'd have to STUDY it to know for sure and I'm not a good enough Christian OR snopester to do that. [Wink]

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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