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Author Topic: Two New (?) Christian (?) Heresies
Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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I was listening to a Christian, whose character is sterling, but whose theology is...suspect.

1) Mohammed was spoken to by a demon, not by an Angel. You can easily see this (my friend said) by reading the Koran; the character of Allah is not at all Godly, but demonic throughout.

2) Osiris, Orpheus, Mithra, etc. were not independent instances of a God or Demigod who died and rose again. Instead, the crucifixion of Jesus was such a profound event that it sent shock-waves backwards in time, causing these myths to be created.

Now: I am not posting this for purposes of getting anyone to "laugh at the stupid Christian." Instead, I have two serious questions:

1) Has anyone here heard these before? They were quite new to me, and I've been reading theology for most of my life.

2) If you had to, could you reason in defense of these claims? I've read the Koran, and didn't find it at all demonic. The notion of time-travel to explain the similarities between Jesus and Osiris seems absurd to me. Are these notions as self-evidently unreasonable as I think they are, or can they be supported by any serious theological thought?

Silas

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forceflow15
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As part of my faith, I believe that G-d chose to send multiple prophets throughout history. For me, the most important was Christ, but belief in Mohammed, or Moses as the most profound is not barred. I cannot argue that Mohammed was a demon, but the time travel thing makes more since if you believe instead that those ancient demigods were actually prophets sent by G-d, much as Christ, Moses, and Mohammed were sent to modern-day believers.

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Gibbie
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I believe that Allah as demon is the Chickian stand point. I've never heard of the shockwaves through time theory. Usually the other instances are dismissed as myth.

Gibbie

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Minstrel gone caroling
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I find the portrayal of God in much of the Old Testament to be far more demonic than Allah, actually.

The time travel thing... oy. Well, humans exist in linear time, but God exists in all times simultaneously, according to (I think) CS Lewis, among other theologians. So it couldn't possibly be a matter of backward time travel for God, because God is already there. Er, then. So there would be no need for time travel, because from the Godly point of view, all of the mythologies surrounding Jesus, Osiris, Adonis, et al, are developing at once, already exist, and have already faded. And one would have to be omniscient to keep track of all that!

I had heard the Allah=demon theory before, but not the time travel one.

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Lady Moon
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1) Yes, I've heard the Allah=demon one all my life, sadly.

2) I've heard this one too -- usually by dear brothers and sisters who tried weed for the first time....

Lady Moon

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El Camino
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
2) Osiris, Orpheus, Mithra, etc. were not independent instances of a God or Demigod who died and rose again. Instead, the crucifixion of Jesus was such a profound event that it sent shock-waves backwards in time, causing these myths to be created.

Sounds like someone's been getting a few too many ideas from Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End.

Or perhaps vice versa?

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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If you read closely, Silas didn't say there was time "travel"... just a shockwave that sent ripples back in time, and it was these that caused the Mithra, etc. myths to be started. He didn't say that Jesus was a time traveler.

In defense of the "demon" part, the "spirit" that spoke to Mohammad didn't identify himself as a standard angel of God, nor did he identify himself as God, Himself, THEREFORE, it musta been a demon by default, as an agent for God would have used an identifiable name, and if it were God, it would have been made clear, and not some demon calling itself, "Allah".

Howzat? To continue, since the Quran clearly was posited in Mohammad's mind by a demon, then it CAN'T be divinely inspired! The book doesn't discuss the REAL chosen people, as described by the Old and New Testaments... Therefore... demonic by default.

And I can say that I have NEVER heard of the time ripple effect before tonight.

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trollface
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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
And I can say that I have NEVER heard of the time ripple effect before tonight.

You've got to admire it as a great example of altering the facts to fit in with your beliefs, though, haven't you?

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A Man of Wealth and Taste
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by Minstrel gone caroling:
I find the portrayal of God in much of the Old Testament to be far more demonic than Allah, actually.

Beat me to it. Once, in discussing the Seven Deadly Sins and who exemplifies them best with a fellow atheist, we decided the perfect embodiment for Wrath would be the OT God Himself.

(As a funny side note, we picked Eris for Envy, noting that she started the Trojan War after not being invited to a party...)

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
And I can say that I have NEVER heard of the time ripple effect before tonight.

You've got to admire it as a great example of altering the facts to fit in with your beliefs, though, haven't you?
Well, I praised my friend's character, not the sophistication of his theology...

At very least, the notion has the advantage of being limited to only one instance. It would be (I suppose?) tempting to use "time travel" (or shock-waves through time) to explain (or explain away?) other ideas throughout history -- in much the same way that "Ancient Astronauts" can explain anything mysterious, from the Pyramids to Nazca to Easter Island. But my friend implied that only the crucifixion was significant enough an event (earthquakes, the graves opening, the splitting of the veil in the temple, etc.) to cause this to happen.

I guess what I'm looking for is a way to attack it as being "unreasonable," rather than for being "self-serving," even though it is most definitely the latter also.

I think I must fail in this, as "miracles" -- great or small -- are inherently unreasonable.

Silas

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by A Man of Wealth and Taste:
quote:
Originally posted by Minstrel gone caroling:
I find the portrayal of God in much of the Old Testament to be far more demonic than Allah, actually.

Beat me to it. Once, in discussing the Seven Deadly Sins and who exemplifies them best with a fellow atheist, we decided the perfect embodiment for Wrath would be the OT God Himself.

(As a funny side note, we picked Eris for Envy, noting that she started the Trojan War after not being invited to a party...)

Highjacking my own thread (one of my many bad habits) a chapter of the Tolkien Fellowship once sat down and cross-indexed the Seven Deadly Sins with all of the characters in The Lord of the Rings. Lots of Pride, a decent amount of Anger, a little Greed and Envy. Only Wormtongue displayed Lust, desiring Eowyn.

The spying birds that flew over Eriador in search of the Nine Walkers were, we found, without sin.

Silas

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Echinodermata Q. Taft
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by El Camino:
Sounds like someone's been getting a few too many ideas from Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End.

Or perhaps vice versa?

Hmmmm...this actually makes me think the theory might have come from somewhere. Clarke could certainly have used it as inspiration. Interesting question!

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Deerskin
...on the wrong side of the Looking Glass


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
[

2) Osiris, Orpheus, Mithra, etc. were not independent instances of a God or Demigod who died and rose again. Instead, the crucifixion of Jesus was such a profound event that it sent shock-waves backwards in time, causing these myths to be created.
Silas [/QB]

....about the connection between Our Lord and Osiris: Osiris was the prefigurement of Jesus, just as Osiris' mother Isis was for Mary, the Mother of Our Lord. As I understand it, I think it was the pharao, Ahkanaten (sp??) who, under the influince of the Judeaic prophicies, introduced the concept of monotheseim to the Egyptians, with the one God represented by the Sun God, as God the Father, and Our Lord and His Blessed Mother by Osiris and Isis.

(I apologise for the misspellings- it has been many years since I studied this, and don't recall the correct spelling...)

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AdmiralDinty
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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
1) Mohammed was spoken to by a demon, not by an Angel. You can easily see this (my friend said) by reading the Koran; the character of Allah is not at all Godly, but demonic throughout.

This is a common thread in Christian theology since the early Church. Pagan gods and goddesses were believed to be actual demons. Augustine talks about this throughout City of God. Likewise, see Gregory of Tours' account of the miracles of St. Martin of Tours, who on several occasions cast demons out of the pagan idols of Gaul in the mid 4th century.

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Minstrel gone caroling
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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^^Hey, look! An icon who was on the Council of Nicaea!

quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
If you read closely, Silas didn't say there was time "travel"... just a shockwave that sent ripples back in time, and it was these that caused the Mithra, etc. myths to be started. He didn't say that Jesus was a time traveler.

Yeah, I guess I didn't word that right. I meant that there would be no need for any sort of backwards time ripples, because God's awareness is already there/then and could cause "new" mythologies to arise. It wouldn't have needed to be a change moving backwards through time, because to God it was all happening at once. Which means, to a human who lived through the time of the crucifixion, there would never have been a time in which those mythologies had not existed in the past. They wouldn't have gone to bed not knowing of, say, Osiris, and then awakened the next morning with all brand new memories of Osiris and Isis and their cult.

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Elbe
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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While not actually including time ripples (Bah!) I could see a strange argument for them all being the same event (including the possibilities of more to come).

Let's say jesus is the focal point of time in this argument - he's born, he dies, he's resurrected. Only at the singular event can anyone mortal be present at the events, but throughout all of time (or at least all of time that contains sentient humans/beings) the knowledge of the event is spread. As jesus was fated from birth to die, so was he fated to be born even thousands of years beforehand. God, being the omniscient, omnipotent being it is, used divine inspiration to allow cultures past, present, and future to know of greatness of the event - and each culture, in turn, adopts the life of jesus into their own culture and traditions. And thus mythologies are born.

Of course I'm agnostic so what do I know.

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eif
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waffles

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Silar originally wrote:
The spying birds that flew over Eriador in search of the Nine Walkers were, we found, without sin.

YOMANK, Silas! Without sin, indeed! [lol]

Trollface, I gotta say that on contentious issues like this, we tend to be on opposite ends - until now. Your comment was apropos AND cut quite deep. Bravo, I applaud your insight.

Okay, let's play the silly game and take this seriously for a second or two.

First off, in my Dictionary of Mythology, Folklore and Symbols (Jobes), the only deities to experience resurrection were, Balder, Christ, Fionn, Gwion Bach, Heracles, Jonah, Krishna, Odysseus, Orestes, Orpheus, Osiris and Ra. Okay, that nitpick is done...

Jesus is nailed in place, mocked, is stuck and dies. There are earthquakes, fire, floods and locusts. There is also a ripple effect in time that washes back and quasi-plants the myths/stories of several resurrections in "false" religions that pre-date the crucifixion by centuries to millenia.

Why? What purpose does it have to do so? There is reason and logic (even if man cannot see it) in all of God's works (speaking as a Believer for a moment). Why?

Why not drop crap into the other religions that show it in a bad light or show them to be the "frauds" that they are? Why give Orpheus' story that makes him seem Christ-like? It truly serves no logical purpose! Why not give him a story of kicking puppies and sleeping with boys to discredit him?

The ONLY resurrection myths that post-date the events of 2000 years ago are in some central American and Native American stories, but they are just footnotes in religious references, but both the Inca and Aztecs had at least stories of great leaders that were reborn. So we "know" that this ripple went in both directions.

I can understand going forward, to bring discredit to new religions by giving them a story that makes them copy-cats. Why back? Doesn't that bring Christianity into doubt by making IT a copy-cat?

All this being said, let's defend this:

God, in His mysterious power, made the ripple go back to make things familiar to potential converts. "Hey, look, this story of Jesus is the same as (insert hero/deity here)!!" In the other resurrection myths, it was done both to make the heathens that they were just copy-cats, and to also test the faithful Christians.

Now my brain hurts. I can't defend it any more than that. Good luck, Silas!!

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Minstrel gone caroling
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Deerskin:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
[

2) Osiris, Orpheus, Mithra, etc. were not independent instances of a God or Demigod who died and rose again. Instead, the crucifixion of Jesus was such a profound event that it sent shock-waves backwards in time, causing these myths to be created.
Silas

....about the connection between Our Lord and Osiris: Osiris was the prefigurement of Jesus, just as Osiris' mother Isis was for Mary, the Mother of Our Lord. As I understand it, I think it was the pharao, Ahkanaten (sp??) who, under the influince of the Judeaic prophicies, introduced the concept of monotheseim to the Egyptians, with the one God represented by the Sun God, as God the Father, and Our Lord and His Blessed Mother by Osiris and Isis.

(I apologise for the misspellings- it has been many years since I studied this, and don't recall the correct spelling...) [/QB]

Isis was the sister and wife of Osiris, not his mother. She conceived the god Horus from her husband after he'd been killed and dismembered (which took great magic on her part since the one part of his body she'd not been able to find was his penis). Osiris then had to live in the underworld as the god of the dead.

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Grumpy
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by E. Q. Taft:
Hmmmm...this actually makes me think the theory might have come from somewhere. Clarke could certainly have used it as inspiration.

Maybe Clark was inspired... by a demon! It makes perfect sense: the Prince of Lies whispers in the ear of the SF maven, letting him persuade others that religious ideas might have common origins, so as to discredit the One True Lord, and so forth. Just like the Augustine's explanation, as AdmiralDinty reminds us.

Of course, if followers of Islam are unwitting pawns of a demon, then anyone could be. If a demon has the power to appear as a god, then any god one claims to follow could simply be a demon in disguise.

Why, the only people we'd be sure about are those who don't believe in gods or demons at all!

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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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the Mohammed thing sounds like an outgrowth of the fairly common Christian view that all other religions were created by the devil.

on the time travelling thing...

one thing to point out would be that the supposed similarities between the Christ story and those of other religions are often extremely over-hyped and misrepresented. I'm curious as to where your friend got this idea - or if they came up with it independently - tho.

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Mistletoey Chloe
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Also, there's very little in "Judaic prophesies" about "Our Lord's Blessed Mother."

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Minstrel gone caroling:
I meant that there would be no need for any sort of backwards time ripples, because God's awareness is already there/then and could cause "new" mythologies to arise. It wouldn't have needed to be a change moving backwards through time, because to God it was all happening at once.


Ah! That works. It's similar to Deerskin's idea that God inspired Akhneton to come up with monotheism. (Alas, if it was to "prepare the way for the Lord," it failed miserably.)

Malruhn: your list didn't include Mithras; one can hardly exclude him when it comes to Christ-like figures!

There are also later Eddas in which Thor is resurrected after Ragnarok.

And I think Odysseus doesn't belong on the list: he visited Hades while alive, but he didn't actually die to get there.

Silas

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Hero_Mike
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Doesn't the "demonization" of Islam go back to, at least, the time of the "Song of Roland"?

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simone
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Deerskin:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
[

2) Osiris, Orpheus, Mithra, etc. were not independent instances of a God or Demigod who died and rose again. Instead, the crucifixion of Jesus was such a profound event that it sent shock-waves backwards in time, causing these myths to be created.
Silas

....about the connection between Our Lord and Osiris: Osiris was the prefigurement of Jesus, just as Osiris' mother Isis was for Mary, the Mother of Our Lord. As I understand it, I think it was the pharao, Ahkanaten (sp??) who, under the influince of the Judeaic prophicies, introduced the concept of monotheseim to the Egyptians, with the one God represented by the Sun God, as God the Father, and Our Lord and His Blessed Mother by Osiris and Isis.

(I apologise for the misspellings- it has been many years since I studied this, and don't recall the correct spelling...) [/QB]

Akhenaten attempted to eliminate the entire Egyptian pantheon, including Osiris and Isis, and to replce it with a single god, the sun disc Aten. However, IIRC, calling this "monotheism" is problematic because, while Akhenaten and his family directly worshipped the Aten, everyone else indirectly worsipped it through reverence shown to Akhenaten himself. I'm also pretty sure that the theory that Akhenaten's monotheism was a co-opting of Jewish belief is not longer subscribed to by most Egyptologists.

ETA: And what Minstrel and Chloe said.

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Elwood
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Angel to Mohammade actually demon: pretty standard fundametalist belief there. Visions that do not line up with accepted Scripture and doctrine and often portrayed as demonic. It's not unique to Islam, a good fundamentalist would say the same about Joseph Smith or any number of other leaders.

The shockwave thing? I've never heard it put quite that way. More common is the belief that God revealed Christ's sacrifice to men prior to and after the historical crucifixian. Those already more "in tune" with God wrote down the impressions as accurate prophecy, others blended them with cultural traditions and put them into a distorted form of the orignial message.

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callee
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Yeah, I've got to echo elwood. And if you wanted to give the most sympathetic reading possible, then in a way, the islam;demon claim is actually a bit of a compliment from their pov. Think of it this way. You have a man claiming he received divine revelation. From the conservative christian pov, what are the possible explanations? There's a limited number, and they can be grouped as either natural or supernatural:

Natural.

1) he was crazy psychotic insane
2) he just pulled it all out of his arse
3) he deliberately designed it all to deceive people

Supernatural.

4) he received it from a fallen angel, i.e. demon
5) he received it from God, whether through a good angel or not.


If we assume that, when it comes to religions, supernatural is better than natural, then you see I've arranged these in order of complimentaryness, with crazy, psycho, insane man with no supernatural connection being the lowest insult, and actually receving it from God on high as the highest compliment.

Now, a conservative Christian is de facto not going to be able to allow #5 to be true, since that would undermine the heart of their very own religion, but that still leaves the first four options as entirely possible from their pov, and of those four, Silas, your debate partner could be said to have chosen the most complimentary. In other words, he's being as nice as he believes he can be.

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a moment for old friends now estranged, victims of the flux of alliances and changing perceptions. There was something there once, and that something is worth honoring as well. - John Carroll

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pob14
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
1) Mohammed was spoken to by a demon, not by an Angel. You can easily see this (my friend said) by reading the Koran; the character of Allah is not at all Godly, but demonic throughout.

(snip)

1) Has anyone here heard these before? They were quite new to me, and I've been reading theology for most of my life.

Silas, you've just been reading the wrong theology. Had you kept up with these scholarly tracts, you would have heard this long ago.

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Patrick

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
2) Osiris, Orpheus, Mithra, etc. were not independent instances of a God or Demigod who died and rose again. Instead, the crucifixion of Jesus was such a profound event that it sent shock-waves backwards in time, causing these myths to be created.

Proof that the birth, life, and crucifixtion echoed back through time is found in the fact that *all* ancient civilizations before the birth of Christ used the exact same calendar based on how many years it would be until Christ's birth. If His birth didn't echo back in time, how did all of those civilizations know when He'd be born?

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I believe--and this is just my personal belief, not the teaching of any organized body so far as I know--that the dead & ressurected god myths in the pagan mythologies were God's way of preparing those peoples for the coming of Christ. As He sent the prophets to the Jews, so he sent the 'mythographers' to the pagans. Perhaps that is another way of stating the 'time ripple' theory without the post-Einsteinian science-fiction verbiage.

As for the Mohammed as a Demon, I don't beleive that; there is a passage in the NT (I haven't my Bible here, so I can't give chapter and verse) which says, "If an angel from heaven were to preach another gospel than the one we have taught you, do not believe him." When I first heard about the Archangel Gabriel visiting Mohammed, I thought of this passage.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Elkhound, I'm curious, how do you interpret the "If an angel..." verse outside of putting Mohammed's angel as demonic? the combination of those two sentences in your post confused me as if anything it would seem to support the angel-as-demon view and you didn't provide an alternative.

I've come across the myths-as-prefiguring idea before and it does have its appeal, tho it often seems like an attempt to avoid dealing with the more intolerant sections of the bible and Christianity as a whole.

- Jonathan

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Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
Elkhound, I'm curious, how do you interpret the "If an angel..." verse outside of putting Mohammed's angel as demonic? the combination of those two sentences in your post confused me as if anything it would seem to support the angel-as-demon view and you didn't provide an alternative.



Well, I'm not quite sure how to interpret it, but it is an interesting coincidence.

quote:
[quote]I've come across the myths-as-prefiguring idea before and it does have its appeal, tho it often seems like an attempt to avoid dealing with the more intolerant sections of the bible and Christianity as a whole.

- Jonathan [/QB]

"Intolerant?" We believe that all truth comes from God. Accordingly, if we find congruencies between Christianity and other religions, then it means that He is responsible for them. How is that intolerant?

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
"Intolerant?" We believe that all truth comes from God. Accordingly, if we find congruencies between Christianity and other religions, then it means that He is responsible for them. How is that intolerant?

It's not "intolerant" per se, but some people find it insulting, or at least patronizing.

Imagine, for instance, how you would feel if a Hindu said, "Jesus was just one of the avatars of Shiva. While you only worship one small piece of the god, we worship his entirety."

Silas

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AdmiralDinty
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
"Intolerant?" We believe that all truth comes from God. Accordingly, if we find congruencies between Christianity and other religions, then it means that He is responsible for them. How is that intolerant?

It's not "intolerant" per se, but some people find it insulting, or at least patronizing.

Imagine, for instance, how you would feel if a Hindu said, "Jesus was just one of the avatars of Shiva. While you only worship one small piece of the god, we worship his entirety."

Silas

You've just happened upon the crucial question of comparative theology and interreligious dialogue. Nicely done.

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"I wanna bite the hand that feeds me. I wanna bite that hand so badly. I wanna make them wish they'd never seen me." - Elvis Costello

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musicgeek
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
[QUOTE]Proof that the birth, life, and crucifixtion echoed back through time is found in the fact that *all* ancient civilizations before the birth of Christ used the exact same calendar based on how many years it would be until Christ's birth. If His birth didn't echo back in time, how did all of those civilizations know when He'd be born?

[lol] [lol] [lol]

music "if English was good enough for Jesus Christ..." geek

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[God said] "I'll just sit back in the shade while everyone gets laid; that's what I call intelligent design." - Chris Smither, "Origin of the Species"

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