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Author Topic: 4-year old charged with sexual assault for hugging...
Towknie
We Three Blings


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When I was in second grade, at the end of the year, we all had to line up single file, and each receive a hug and a kiss on the cheek from our teacher (36yo, single, female). Wouldn't that be construed as forced sexual assault on the part of the teacher these days?

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Towknie: Ryda-certified as wonderful, enlighted, and rational.

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The Fourth Man
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet:
Re the OP, drawing lines between domestic and public behaviour can be difficult when you're only little. HOw many of us have called our teacher "mum" during our school career?

Ah. Just me, then...

No, not just you. [Wink] [Embarrassed]

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If you keep trying, you'll eventually succeed. Therefore, the more you fail, the higher your chances of success.
-- Jacques Rouxel, 1931-2004 RIP :(

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BringTheNoise
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by The Fourth Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet:
Re the OP, drawing lines between domestic and public behaviour can be difficult when you're only little. HOw many of us have called our teacher "mum" during our school career?

Ah. Just me, then...

No, not just you. [Wink] [Embarrassed]
Did it a high school once. [Embarrassed] [Embarrassed] [Embarrassed]

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"The United States Government: significantly less cruel and sadistic than the Taliban." - Dara

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
The keyword there may be "seemed." I can imagine, for example, a little girl acting like she doesn't mind because nobody else is making a fuss about it, or because she doesn't want the other kids to think she's a crybaby.

You could well be right. But, then again, you might not be.
[Confused] I wasn't taking a position, I was stating possibilities.

quote:
Truth be told, we simply don't know.
Well, yes. That was actually sort of my point. [Wink]

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Starla
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Towknie:
When I was in second grade, at the end of the year, we all had to line up single file, and each receive a hug and a kiss on the cheek from our teacher (36yo, single, female). Wouldn't that be construed as forced sexual assault on the part of the teacher these days?

It's not sexual assault, but the teacher shouldn't make a hug and kiss mandatory. If there isn't an opt out, it's not okay.

Starlet's Kindergarten teacher does "Hug or High-Five" every morning as the kids come in the class. Most kids chose a hug, but if they don't even want to high-five that's okay too. The majority of the kids love giving and getting hugs from their teacher.

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This used to be the life, but I don't need another one.
MyBandwagon

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Starla
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by El Camino:
Also, total hijack, but what is with a "pre-kindergarten" student being in a primary school anyway? Is this something new? Something regional? Because I'd never heard of that before.

This may actually be a very relevant point. In my school district, and in many others, pre-Kindergarten is offered in public schools as part of the Head Start program. It is open only to at-risk children, meaning those with physical disabilities, learning disabilities, or children from low-income families.

From the OP:
quote:
David Davis, the executive director of the Advocacy Center in Waco tends to agree with Blackwell. He says assuming the boy has not had sexual encounters, or been inappropriately exposed to pornography, most four-year-olds are sexually innocent.

This is a big if. It is possible-- I'm just saying possible, not definite-- that this child is at-risk for some reason. Perhaps he has been sexualized too early. Perhaps he has impulse control problems and he rubbed his face in a teacher's breasts one time too many. We don't know if this was the first incident or not. The school cannot give their side of the story.

Hopefully it's a case of innocent touch gone too far, but there could be a lot more to this story.

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This used to be the life, but I don't need another one.
MyBandwagon

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franjava
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by The Fourth Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet:
Re the OP, drawing lines between domestic and public behaviour can be difficult when you're only little. HOw many of us have called our teacher "mum" during our school career?

Ah. Just me, then...

No, not just you. [Wink] [Embarrassed]
ME TOO! Second grade... Mrs. Crane. She was my favorite teacher ever!

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Never eat anything given to you by a toddler.

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Amigone201:
This sounds like institutitionalized sexual harassment. If I were a teacher, I would be totally opposed to this happening on my playground.

No offense to you, trollface; you were a kid and it was a different world. It was up to your teachers to show you right from wrong, which they seemed to have not done.

I'm mostly disturbed by this part:
Mind you, with every boy in a big, long line that could surround them, maybe they just knew not to bother.
So basically the girls don't get to choose whether or not they get kissed? Lovely.

I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't think it's institutionalized sexual harrassment at all. I think it's a part of social development.

Children, as they enter school, must begin the process of learning differences between boys and girls. Part of that process involves learning that men sometimes kiss women. This bit of curiousity hits its (pre-adolescent) peak around age 5. Boys dare each other to kiss girls. Girls chase boys and try to kiss them, by force if necessary (happened to me many times).

Shortly after that, boys and girls begin to seperate socially: boys play with boys, girls play with girls. Re-introduction of the sexes begins again around adolescence.

It should not be construed as sexual harrassment at the age of 4 or 5 because there is no understanding of the sexual nature of actions within children that young. The one exception is with a child who has been subject to sexual abuse and is mimicking that behavior...but even then, the child doesn't have an understanding of the sexual nature of their actions.

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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Any time a group of children get together to pressure/force potentially unwanted contact on another, it is an issue that should be addressed. I agree that it shouldn't be called sexual harrassment, but I don't think it should be considered part of social development.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't think it's institutionalized sexual harrassment at all. I think it's a part of social development.

It isn't institutionalized sexual harrassment yet. It is, however, education for how to sexually harrass (or, if you want to call it that, social development, which means socially developing twisted attitudes about sex, sexuality, and gender), hence why action has to be taken as soon as possible.

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Rainmom:
He probably had an itchy nose!

From the article description, I figured the kid had a snotty nose and the aide just got snot smeared all over her shirt.

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And now for something completely different...

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Methuselah
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.:
quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't think it's institutionalized sexual harrassment at all. I think it's a part of social development.

It isn't institutionalized sexual harrassment yet. It is, however, education for how to sexually harrass (or, if you want to call it that, social development, which means socially developing twisted attitudes about sex, sexuality, and gender), hence why action has to be taken as soon as possible.
Girls kissing boys will lead to developing twisted attitudes about sex, sexuality, and gender? How do you figure?

I would support the opposite position, that keeping boys and girls from interacting in a normal fashion will lead them to fear sexuality and approach it with an unhealthy, overly aggressive, resentful attitude.

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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A group of boys ganging up to give girls no choice in whether or not they get kissed is not the kind of social development I would have wanted to undergo. Just as bad when the genders are switched.

I don't have a problem with little boys and girls playing kissing games. I do have a problem with games where kids are forced, pressured, or coerced into kissing or other touching.

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Officially Heartless

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.:
quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't think it's institutionalized sexual harrassment at all. I think it's a part of social development.

It isn't institutionalized sexual harrassment yet. It is, however, education for how to sexually harrass (or, if you want to call it that, social development, which means socially developing twisted attitudes about sex, sexuality, and gender), hence why action has to be taken as soon as possible.
Girls kissing boys will lead to developing twisted attitudes about sex, sexuality, and gender? How do you figure?

I would support the opposite position, that keeping boys and girls from interacting in a normal fashion will lead them to fear sexuality and approach it with an unhealthy, overly aggressive, resentful attitude.

See what cervus said below. The process you describe does several things:

A) it introduces a highly hetronormative thought process.

B) it encourages sexuality as a matter of competition and force.

C) it encourages that the only interaction between the sexes be based around physicality and sex.

It does nothing to introduce a healthy sexuality or physicality. It does everything to introduce destructive methods of sexuality and interpersonal interaction.

What you interpret as "normal" interaction is actually highly socialized and troubling to notions of individuality, while at the same time it produces dangerous social roles and group behaviors.

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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Even without the kissing, it is still not okay for multiple people to gang up on a single person or a smaller group to require them to do something.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.:
See what cervus said below. The process you describe does several things:

A) it introduces a highly hetronormative thought process.

B) it encourages sexuality as a matter of competition and force.

C) it encourages that the only interaction between the sexes be based around physicality and sex.

It does nothing to introduce a healthy sexuality or physicality. It does everything to introduce destructive methods of sexuality and interpersonal interaction.

What you interpret as "normal" interaction is actually highly socialized and troubling to notions of individuality, while at the same time it produces dangerous social roles and group behaviors.

I would agree thoroughly if we were talking about adolescent children. But we're not.

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
I would agree thoroughly if we were talking about adolescent children. But we're not.

If you wait until adolescence, you're far too late. The processes being discussed are patterns of behavior being formed at a very, very early age. Therefore, they need to be addressed at that age. Should we wait until they are teens to teach them not to steal or not to hit or to share or not to call people mean names?

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.:
quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
I would agree thoroughly if we were talking about adolescent children. But we're not.

If you wait until adolescence, you're far too late. The processes being discussed are patterns of behavior being formed at a very, very early age. Therefore, they need to be addressed at that age. Should we wait until they are teens to teach them not to steal or not to hit or to share or not to call people mean names?
No. But, if a child of four doesn't share a toy during recess...do we place him or her in in-school detention and label him or her a thief?

That's what's happening here. A child, through the normal process of childhood development, interacts with other children (or in the case of the OP, a teacher's aide). That child is then labelled with the accusation of "sexual harrassment" and given in-school detention. Right or wrong?

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.:
A) it introduces a highly hetronormative thought process.

While this is maybe true, it's kind of a "chicken or egg" situation. I know that I didn't kiss girls when I was that age because it was what was expected of me - it's because it's something that I enjoyed and found stimulating.

It's also not something that affected my thought processes with regards to the "rightness" of homosexuality. I can still remember being in Primary School (maybe 8 or 9 years old) and working out that men who wanted to have sex with other men would have to have anal sex. This realisation didn't come with any thought other than "oh, that makes sense".

Of course, those are both merely personal anecdotes, but then this whole discussion is based on a personal anecdote, so I can only realistically tell you how it affected me.

quote:
B) it encourages sexuality as a matter of competition and force.
I'd say that was a lot more true of kiss chase. The competition aspect, anyway.

I think that force was the main part of it. Truth be told, my guess as to why the girls rarely did it themselves was because the boys didn't tend to run very much, rather than because they didn't want to do it, too. It's just not as much fun if the other person doesn't run.

It wasn't a large school, and I generally remember the kids as being concerned for each other. If someone was upset for some reason, I remember everybody gathering round and being concerned. So, if someone had genuinely minded being ganged up on and kissed, then I would imagine (although I couldn't say for sure) that we'd have known and excluded them from the game. I don't think it would have passed without comment. And I don't remember any of the girls actually cowering, or trying to push anyone away, or anything like that. Once "caught" (and there was no physical restraining, or anything like that. Grabbing someone would have been unsporting) they'd just stand there, get kissed, and then walk off, while we went for the next target.

I even remember a couple of occasions where the playground ended up of nothing but two lines, one of boys, one of girls, both walking around slowly, trying to kiss each other.

So, were I to liken it to any aspect of adult sexuality, it wouldn't be rape (date rape, or otherwise), but of the game of "chase me" that young couples play, where the woman runs away from the man, but not quite fast enough that she won't get caught...

quote:
C) it encourages that the only interaction between the sexes be based around physicality and sex.
Now this I definitely have to dispute. This is a game that was played every few weeks to every few months. Beyond that there was plenty of interaction between the sexes.

quote:
It does nothing to introduce a healthy sexuality or physicality. It does everything to introduce destructive methods of sexuality and interpersonal interaction.
Which is a fair point, if we were talking about the grand total sum of boy/girl interaction at that school. Which we're not. We're talking about a small fraction of it.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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ZPG Zealot
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Has it occurred to any of you that the aide may have reported the incident in order to documented what actually what happened, so that it couldn't be misconstrued later as sexual contact with a child? When I was a teacher, everytime there was any physical contact with a student beyond a handshake, we wrote it up in the files, if for no other reason than to prove our innonence at a later date.
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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
That's what's happening here. A child, through the normal process of childhood development, interacts with other children (or in the case of the OP, a teacher's aide). That child is then labelled with the accusation of "sexual harrassment" and given in-school detention. Right or wrong?

Right, if the child has been taught otherwise. That's my point, it needs to be taught, even earlier if possible, and then treated like any other severe infraction.

In the case of the OP (which, actually, I wasn't discussing as much as the kiss-n-chase game), there does seem to be a slight bit of an over-reaction, if this was, indeed, a first time event.

However, I'd say any damage done to the kid is being done by the parents, which didn't handle their problem with the school in a rational, controlled manner.

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:

Of course, those are both merely personal anecdotes, but then this whole discussion is based on a personal anecdote, so I can only realistically tell you how it affected me.

Understood, and, frankly, childhood sexuality is understudied and stigmitized. No, we have no idea if your desire to kiss girls and not boys was innate or if it was socialized. However, at that advanced of an age, I'd go with socialized (big surprise), esp. if a female was your primary caretaker, and you saw any sort of hetro behaviors modeled as an infant/child.

quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
I think that force was the main part of it. It's just not as much fun if the other person doesn't run.


SNIPPY

So, if someone had genuinely minded being ganged up on and kissed, then I would imagine (although I couldn't say for sure) that we'd have known and excluded them from the game. I don't think it would have passed without comment.
SNIPPY

So, were I to liken it to any aspect of adult sexuality, it wouldn't be rape (date rape, or otherwise), but of the game of "chase me" that young couples play, where the woman runs away from the man, but not quite fast enough that she won't get caught...

I'm snipping. I know. Bad, bad ryda. But your orig. post is just up the page:

Here's the thing. I firmly believe that this is an educated and educating procedure. We have been raised, in this culture, to view sexual relations as a power game between the submissive and the dominant. This game is exhibited in our literature, our metaphorical structures, or entertainment, our religion, etc.
The idea of blending sexual imitation (be it recognized as such to the parties involved or not) with power imbalances is an imitative process. We recognize it in our earliest cultural experiences, and model it in our earliest social experiences.

As far as people minding it? I think it would be hard to tell in any meaningful way. The desire to belong is strong, even at that age. Some may not mind it, but others might, and keep that to themselves.

As for comparing it to the "fleeing woman, hunting man." Yup. Absolutly valid. And I think that it is a very dangerous and injurious model which needs to be altered, and which certainly does lead to sexual dysfuction, up to and inluding rape.


quote:
C) it encourages that the only interaction between the sexes be based around physicality and sex.
Now this I definitely have to dispute. This is a game that was played every few weeks to every few months. Beyond that there was plenty of interaction between the sexes.

quote:
It does nothing to introduce a healthy sexuality or physicality. It does everything to introduce destructive methods of sexuality and interpersonal interaction.
Which is a fair point, if we were talking about the grand total sum of boy/girl interaction at that school. Which we're not. We're talking about a small fraction of it.

--------------------
So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.:
No, we have no idea if your desire to kiss girls and not boys was innate or if it was socialized. However, at that advanced of an age, I'd go with socialized (big surprise), esp. if a female was your primary caretaker, and you saw any sort of hetro behaviors modeled as an infant/child.

Well, obviously I don't know. At that age my mother was my primary caretaker and she and my dad were physically affectionate in front of us kids. So that much is true. However, I've known several people who were brought up from being babies in homosexual, physically-demonstrative two-dad households, and without exception, they've all been straight.

While I think that our sexual preferences are more flexible than a straight "we're born that way" or societal roles would have it, I do also think that there's a lot of merit to the idea of it being something that's innate.

I can trace certain elements of my sexuality back to my childhood very clearly. I've always had a thing for light bondage. I can trace that back to another incident at the same school from the same age, and from being a young child and seeing the scene in Flash Gordon where Ornella Muti is tied to a table that she's just been whipped on, when I must have been 10 or so. Now did these events cause me to become interested in bondage, or was that interest already there, which is why these were significant events for me? Similarly, I can remember very specifically a moment from when I was 8 or so, sitting in assembly at school and catching sight of a classmate's bare neck with a beam of sunlight striking it, as she bent her head with her hair put up on top of her head. To this day I count necks as one of the most attractive parts of a woman's anatomy, and I love hair that's put up. Again, is this aspect of my adult sexuality caused by this childhood event, or do I remember the event and did it have a profound effect on me because I was predisposed to think that way?

I think that the answer is "both". I think it's been adequately shown that our brains develop (and, indeed, continue to develop as adults), and that the more you use certain parts, and the more you make certain connections, the easier it becomes to make those connections and to use those parts of the brain. So I think that, while I was predisposed to feel and act the way that I do, the fact that I had significant events of this kind reinforced and added to those original inclinations.

quote:
We have been raised, in this culture, to view sexual relations as a power game between the submissive and the dominant.
I think that sometimes it is. And it's not necessarily unhealthy. BDSM is based on this very thing.

I'd say that it's a hazy line between that kind of a power game and true domination and coercion, but that doesn't mean that a power game in the bedroom is necessarily a bad thing.

I like a girl who is submissive. I like a girl who is dominant. I like a girl who is my equal. But any girl who is going to hold my interest is going to be all three, and every shade in between, depending on the day and on the mood. Maybe even in the space of a few minutes. Over all I'd like it to even out so that she's my exact equal, but all the time? That'd be boring. For both of us.

quote:
As far as people minding it? I think it would be hard to tell in any meaningful way. The desire to belong is strong, even at that age. Some may not mind it, but others might, and keep that to themselves.
Oh, I totally agree. There's no way we could ever know for sure. All I have to go on is that I was always told that I was a very perceptive and empathic kid, and I never noticed it. Doesn't mean that it didn't happen, of course.

quote:
As for comparing it to the "fleeing woman, hunting man." Yup. Absolutly valid. And I think that it is a very dangerous and injurious model which needs to be altered, and which certainly does lead to sexual dysfuction, up to and inluding rape.
But, again, is it actually wrong? I can see where you're coming from with the act, as part of a larger paradigm. But it's made up of individual examples. So, while I can agree that the iconography of "dominant man chasing submissive woman, for purposes of spreading his seed!" ("Ugh! Man strong!") is a dangerous and damaging one on a societal level, if my (hypothetical) girlfriend starts playfully and flirtatiously running away from me, then I'm not going to say "now, dear, you really shouldn't do that, as it's only a manifestation of your societally-induced sexual dysfunction". No, I'm going to giggle, run after her, and see if I can't steal myself a kiss.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
Again, is this aspect of my adult sexuality caused by this childhood event, or do I remember the event and did it have a profound effect on me because I was predisposed to think that way?

This, again, is an intriguing concept. Personally, I think part of my sub self developed as a result of the intensive scripture reading I was forced to do as a child (reading the entire bible is enough to warp anyone's fragile little mind, hollywood be damned). However, my brother
did the same, and he is, most emphatically not a sub. My partner was also reared much the same, and he's a dom (though he plays switch from time to time.) I think it's wise to say that we, as individuals, are born with certain tendencies, and those manifest themselves depending on what we see modeled.


quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
quote:
We have been raised, in this culture, to view sexual relations as a power game between the submissive and the dominant.
I think that sometimes it is. And it's not necessarily unhealthy. BDSM is based on this very thing.

I'd say that it's a hazy line between that kind of a power game and true domination and coercion, but that doesn't mean that a power game in the bedroom is necessarily a bad thing.

I think it's a necessary thing for some. however, with BSDM (at least the way I and my associates practice it), everything is quite clear and quite out in the open. It makes that hazy line quite a bit more solid and acknowledges the physical, psychological, emotional risk we are taking.

However, I'd like to see power roles develop in a more organic way. too often, what we see modeled is a male-top/female-bottom thing (yes, there are exceptions, but those aren't as common, and tend to be relegated to the fringe. In mass media, any man who actually has a relationship with a female with top tendencies is often seen as "pussy-whipped." A dom is only acceptable as a mistress or sex worker.) Even in gay and lesbian relationships, these roles play out, in common understanding (i.e. "Hey girls, Who's the Man? You or her?" or "So, boys, who's the bitch")

I'd love to see far more variety in sexual and sensual "positioning" exhibited, and less of the "one way and one way only" idea.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.:
I think it's wise to say that we, as individuals, are born with certain tendencies, and those manifest themselves depending on what we see modeled.

Yeah, I think that that applies across the board, not just in terms of sexuality, but with everything about us.

quote:
I think it's a necessary thing for some. however, with BSDM (at least the way I and my associates practice it), everything is quite clear and quite out in the open. It makes that hazy line quite a bit more solid and acknowledges the physical, psychological, emotional risk we are taking.
While I agree, my point is that there are shades of grey, even like that. When I said above that dominance can be switched within minutes above, I was trying to allude to this fluidity.

There have been times, for example, when during sex I've held my girlfriend's arms down. Not something that either of us planned, but something that we both enjoyed. I could tell from her body language/movement, facial expressions and vocalisations whether she was in to it or not, and mould my behaviour accordingly. If she tried to move her arms and didn't want to be restrained, I'd let her move. If she did want to be restrained, I'd keep holding her down.

Yes, there is the potential for misreading signals there, but having a general safe-word helps, so that she's got something to say other than "no", where I'd have known if she'd meant it. But, the point is that something like that isn't something that can really be planned for and, indeed, planning what you're going to do in bed might not always be what you want to do. Sometimes it will be, but other times it won't. It can be just a moment, as the mood takes you both and you respond to each other's movements and attitudes. And it can be entirely transitory. It could go from "equal" sex, to me holding her down, to her on top teasing me mercilessly with a smile and a giggle, all within the space of a few minutes.

For me, that kind of spontaneity is vital. Yes, sometimes you're going to want to define who is playing what role and what's going to be involved, but sometimes you're going to just want to see what happens. And, of course, you don't always plan to have sex. Often a kiss is just a kiss, but sometimes it turns into something more.

quote:
I'd love to see far more variety in sexual and sensual "positioning" exhibited, and less of the "one way and one way only" idea.
I'm with you there. Especially if you throw in "societal", too.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Morgaine La Raq Star
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Just FYI: I got 'felt up' twice today. I have to remember not to wear v-neck tops! They try & balance or give me a hug & their hands go right into the 'V'!
We were all talking about this at work & most were in agreement that it was a serious over-reaction.

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I cannot live without books-Thomas Jefferson *~* A child educated only at school is an uneducated child - George Santayana
I'm going to pummel you with such zeal, Buddha will explode! *~* Never miss a good chance to shut up - Will Rogers

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Well it depends if it was an ongoing problem or not, don't you think Morgaine? If he had been told several times not to do that should the school just allow the behavior to continue until he is definitely too old for it to be ok?

A gal on my softball team got purposely felt up by a kindergartener while she was doing an observation for a child development class. He squeezed her boob. She didn't know what to do, so she did nothing except tell everyone at softball that kindergartners are getting pretty forward these days. Whether or not the child means to be be sexual, I don't think really matters. The kid needs to know that it's not okay to squeeze a lady's boob.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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I remember the "chase and kiss" games... we chased them, they chased us...

The POINT was that each side thought the others were "gross."

As I remember it, it wasn't about attraction and sex, it was about being annoying to the opposite gender.

Eww. COOTIES.

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Zorro
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by ZPG Zealot:
Has it occurred to any of you that the aide may have reported the incident in order to documented what actually what happened, so that it couldn't be misconstrued later as sexual contact with a child? When I was a teacher, everytime there was any physical contact with a student beyond a handshake, we wrote it up in the files, if for no other reason than to prove our innonence at a later date.

This thought occured to me, too. I work in a school, and when I was in college, my instructors told us to never ever hug the kids, even if we worked with little kids who hurt themselves and needed comforting. Some of the kids try to hug staff on occasion, and I am extremely uncomfortable with it.

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"Seize the day! Make your lives extraordinary!"
-John Keating, "Dead Poets Society"

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Salamander
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
I remember the "chase and kiss" games... we chased them, they chased us...

The POINT was that each side thought the others were "gross."

As I remember it, it wasn't about attraction and sex, it was about being annoying to the opposite gender.

Eww. COOTIES.

That's how I remember it. Although it should be noted that I didn't actually participate in these games -- although annoying the girls was considered worthwhile, the idea of actually kissing one was far too gross. Particularly since even accidental contact with a girl would lead to having girl germs and being teased for at least the rest of the afternoon.

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"victory thru self-deception"

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El Camino
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
However, I'd like to see power roles develop in a more organic way. too often, what we see modeled is a male-top/female-bottom thing (yes, there are exceptions, but those aren't as common, and tend to be relegated to the fringe. In mass media, any man who actually has a relationship with a female with top tendencies is often seen as "pussy-whipped." A dom is only acceptable as a mistress or sex worker.) Even in gay and lesbian relationships, these roles play out, in common understanding (i.e. "Hey girls, Who's the Man? You or her?" or "So, boys, who's the bitch")

I'd love to see far more variety in sexual and sensual "positioning" exhibited, and less of the "one way and one way only" idea.

I hate the internet. My response to these was eaten by the internet twice (you think I would've copied it before posting the second time, but no.) So here is an extremely abbreviated response.

While men may tend to have more power in relationships, I don't think power dynamics are all as slanted as you imply in your post. Relationships where women dominate are more than just "exceptions," but a significant fraction of relationships. I originally said a bunch more stuff, but let's cut the crap. Here's a study that backs me up.

Sprecher, S and D Felmlee. (1997) The balance of power in romantic heterosexual couples over time from `his' and `her' perspectives. Sex Roles 37: 361-379.

quote:
Abstract:
In this investigation, the balance of power between men and women in romantic relationships was examined with a sample of 101 heterosexual
couples, some of whom were surveyed up to jive times over a four-year period. A majority of the participants (who were primarily Caucasian and middle class) reported some imbalance in power in their relationship (53% of the men and 52% of the women on a global measure of power; 67% of the men and 65% of the women on a measure of decision making). The longitudinal data indicated that perceptions of power were quite stable over time. When power imbalances in relationships occurred, the male partner was more likely than the female to be seen as the power holder, although these differences were statistically significant only for men (full sample). In support of W. Waller's "principle of least interest" ((1937) The Family: A Dynamic Interpretation, New York: Gordon), being the less emotionally involved partner in the relationship was associated with greater power. We further found that men were more likely than women to perceive themselves as the less emotionally invested partner. Perceptions of power balance were generally unrelated to either relationship satisfaction or to the likelihood that the couple broke up over time. In one exception, men who perceived their relationship to be equal in power (but not decision making) reported the highest level of satisfaction. We
conclude that the balance of power still often favors men in these romantic couples (especially in decision making), although couples do not always agree on their perceptions, with male partners tending to see more male dominance
than females.

quote:
From the results section:
That is, a significantly greater proportion of males reported that the man had more power (35%) than perceived that the woman had more power (19%) (z = 2.97, p less than .01). However, among the female participants, the difference between the proportion that reported that he had more power (29%) and the proportion that reported she had more power (24%) was not statistically significant.
The modal response to the decision-making item, for both male and female respondents, was that the male partner made more of the decisions. Furthermore, men were much more likely to say that they (the male partner) made more decisions 42%) than to say that their female partner made more decisions (26%), and these differences were statistically significant (z = 2.41, p less than .01). Differences for women between those reporting that the man made more of the decisions (36%) and those reporting that they (the female partner) made more of the decisions (30%), on the other hand, were not statistically significant.
A similar pattern of percentages was found over time with the longitudinal sample.

Obviously only one study, but it supports my claim. Although men tend to have more power, the scale is not overwhelmingly slanted. This study certainly does not reveal an "one way and only one way" trend. Both patterns are common, although one is slightly more common than the other.

ETA: Note that the missing percentages in each piece of data represent people who described power or decision making as being "equal."

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
As I remember it, it wasn't about attraction and sex, it was about being annoying to the opposite gender.

Don't do yourself down, First - I'm sure you were annoying to everybody at an early age. Why not take the opportunity to acknowledge your admirable lack of gender bias?

(edit) I apologise for the blatant personal insult.

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Actually, at an early age, I avoided other children and did my best not to interact with them.

It wasn't until much later that I finally realized that all of these useless, loud, annoying not-me creatures weren't about to leave me in peace, and that I'd have to destroy the lot of them.

It's a long-term solution, it takes long-term planning.

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Speaking personally, I never went through that "girls are icky" stage. I can't remember a time when I didn't socialise with both genders equally (at least, as much as them not thinking that I was icky would allow - but we're talking early teens there).

And kissing girls was definitely something I liked doing. Well, I still do, if it comes to that.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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MaxKaladin
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
Speaking personally, I never went through that "girls are icky" stage.

I didn't either. Of course, all the other kids in the neighborhood I grew up in were girls and thus most of my playmates prior to starting school were girls. Worrying about getting "cooties" or something like that would have been really inconvenient...
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