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Author Topic: You call that HUNTING?!?!
RangerDog
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I don't understand anyone telling anyone what or how to eat, unless you are a dietician or doctor or someone who's advice is being sought. Passing judgement on another because of what or how they eat is just not right.

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Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I have read that it takes 16 lbs of soy protein to raise every lb of beef protein, and that 1 acre of arable land can yield either 165 lbs of beef or 20,000 lbs of potatoes. I have also read that something like 80% of arable land is devoted to livestock. My sources, though are obviously biased toward vegetarianism, so you are free to reject them if you wish.

RangerDog: I assume you make exceptions for people who want to eat babies?

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I don't think anywhere near 80% of arable land is used to support livestock, at least not in the US. Maybe 80% of the land in agricultural usage?

http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/landuse.html
http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/LandUse/majorlandusechapter.htm

"Staple Crops" such as wheat, corn, soy, and hay do make up the majority of harvested acreage, but I don't know how that breaks down into animal food vs. people food. I would guess that 99% of the hay is used to feed animals though. The tasty stuff - fruits, nuts, veggies that is only grown on about 5% of the acres in use.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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quote:
RangerDog: I assume you make exceptions for people who want to eat babies?
Baby calves? Like veeeeaaal? No ma'am. Baby humans - well, I've heard they're mighty tender. But alas, illegal to hunt on days ending with 'y'.

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"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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Mama Duck
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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One minor point. Meat is denser in calories and protein than many other foods. So technically, you should have to eat less meat than plant matter. ( I realize the average American diet does not reflect this little fact.) Also, there is a small percentage of people sensitive to soy protein. It would be difficult for these people get enough protein from non-animal sources.

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There is no interpersonal problem so big that it can't be solved with a suitably large amount of high explosives. ~ Bufungla

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by LeaflessMapleTree:
Baby calves? Like veeeeaaal? No ma'am. Baby humans - well, I've heard they're mighty tender. But alas, illegal to hunt on days ending with 'y'.

Thank the goddess for French!

Ryda "Let's see. 'Mercredi:' check, 'Lundi:' check. Open season on babies every day of the week!" Wong

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I believe that was a UK statistic, Rhi, but there were no references provided, and I am prepared to believe that the number may be overstating things.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.:
quote:
Originally posted by LeaflessMapleTree:
Baby calves? Like veeeeaaal? No ma'am. Baby humans - well, I've heard they're mighty tender. But alas, illegal to hunt on days ending with 'y'.

Thank the goddess for French!

Ryda "Let's see. 'Mercredi:' check, 'Lundi:' check. Open season on babies every day of the week!" Wong

Well, you've certainly got me there. Being a vegetarian, I won't eat 'em. But if you want some help hunting them, just gimme a shout. Mmm, les bebes sont tres delicieux!

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"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Well it is possible that the UK uses a much greater percentage of their land to support meat production, since they are much smaller landwise.

I am not about to completely give up meat. But I do think that meat production should strive to be more sustainable. One of my goals for 2007 is to try to eat more sustainably, and unfortunately for El Marido that means we are going to be eating a lot less meat since range fed beef is a lot pricier than feed lot meat.

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by LeaflessMapleTree:
But if you want some help hunting them, just gimme a shout.

Help hunting them? Do you know how slow and stupid they are? Hah. You can hunt them with your eyes closed. So easy, it's like takin' candy away from....

Yeah. I deserve this [fish]

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Mama Duck
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Do beware of the mothers of said babies. We can be a might touchy. [Wink]

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There is no interpersonal problem so big that it can't be solved with a suitably large amount of high explosives. ~ Bufungla

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Hey, no passing judgment on what people eat! It's just not right!

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Sorry, Chloe, was that last part tongue in cheek, cuz it smacked a bit of double-standardism...

I don't feel the least twinge of guilt for eating meat, but the veggies want me to... and they use the "but they suffer so" argument all the time. When reminded that plants allegedly "suffer" as well, they get all high and mighty.

Gosh, I'm so glad you didn't. (/dripping sarchasm) (that's sarcasm so deep that it forms a crevasse!)

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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Malruhn there are some vegans who only eat foods that fall off plants. This way, they are not subjecting the plant to more suffering that would occur if the fruit would just rot on the ground.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
Sorry, Chloe, was that last part tongue in cheek, cuz it smacked a bit of double-standardism...

I assume you haven't read RangerDog's post at the top of the page. Words too big for you?
quote:
I don't feel the least twinge of guilt for eating meat, but the veggies want me to... and they use the "but they suffer so" argument all the time.
Because it's true. If you don't believe them, ignore them. The fact that you rise to the bait indicates to me that you *do* believe them, and have come over all defensive.
quote:
When reminded that plants allegedly "suffer" as well, they get all high and mighty.
They don't simply point out the folly of your argument, as in my second point? Good thing it's been illustrated for you, then. I assume you won't be using it again, unless you can refute my point. I won't hold my breath, though.
quote:
Gosh, I'm so glad you didn't. (/dripping sarchasm) (that's sarcasm so deep that it forms a crevasse!)
Oh, I get it now. You define "get all high and mighty" as "refute my point and make me look like an ass." I can totally see how that would happen, you poor thing.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I don't see how it can be said that plants suffer. They don't have brains, or nerves, or anything to suffer with.

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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RangerDog
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Well if the babies are cute, I guess. And I'll exempt kittens as well from my laissez-faire attitude towards what one eats. The funny thing about us is that we (me and the pony tail) probably eat less fat and protien, and more veggies, whole wheat/grain, and fruit than the average. Potatoes, white bread, and white rice, while delicious, are ebil incarnate and shall never pass my lips (although difficult to do without cause mashed 'taters are to die for). While everything you eat turns to sugar, those three make a bee-line to blood sugar! I always make sure that I cater to people I cook for in menu selection. If one or more are vegetarian or vegan I sometimes plan a whole vege/vega meal. It's fun, not usually even noticed by the others, and allows me to expand my repertoire.

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Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish

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Woofer
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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[hijack]
quote:
Originally posted by Atlanta Jake:
quote:
Originally posted by Venus:
Yes i do. Animals do understand fire, ...

Anthropomorphize much?
Wild Bill the Coyote Deals with Fire for the First Time
[/hijack]

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Like men riding dragons throwing wolves at maggots.

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Mama Duck:
Do beware of the mothers of said babies. We can be a might touchy. [Wink]

Oh don't worry. I could never eat a baby. (Well not a WHOLE one, anyway).

And YOMANK to Ryda (first time for everything [Wink] )

--------------------
"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by LeaflessMapleTree:
I don't think vegetarianism is a cruelty-free diet, unless you make a point only to buy organic food. The pesticides on most plants ends up in rivers and lakes, killing fish and, by proxy, the animals that eat those fish.

And even then, think how many toads, fieldmice, voles, moles, etc. get killed when grain is harvested.

And are your shoes leather? Are your trousers wool? Is your tie silk?

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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This attack seems to follow the theory that since there is some cruelty involved in nearly any food, that it doesn't matter if your food is fallen fruit (think of the animals that will starve since you ate their food) or obtained by using clubbed baby seals to lure dolphins to fatten calves into veal.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Well, in my case, no, but wool can certainly be humane.

Nevertheless, I am getting rather sick of this attitude that if you do not personally do everything you possibly can to prevent cruelty, you have no business expecting others to do anything at all. No one seems to demand to know the life-affirming credentials of people who represent themselves as pro-life. but as soon as animal issues are raised, there's a snippy "Do you eat meat?" "Do you wear leather?", the implication being that if you do, you should let all incidences of animal cruelty go by without complaint.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by RangerDog:
Potatoes, white bread, and white rice, while delicious, are ebil incarnate and shall never pass my lips (although difficult to do without cause mashed 'taters are to die for). While everything you eat turns to sugar, those three make a bee-line to blood sugar!

[hijack]Can you eat turnips, parsnips, or rutabagas? If you cut them up, boil them, and then run them through the blender with a little butter or sour cream, they make a passable substitute. Cauliflower works well, too.[/hijack]

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Rebochan the Retail Reindeer
Good King Wal-Mart


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But when dealing with the rare vegetarian whose already up in your face about his moral superiority for not deigning to club baby seals like the carnivores do, certainly pointing out their hypocrisy is a legitimate method of defense?

I wouldn't pull the cruelty thing out on a vegetarian or vegan who's not protesting my omnivorous tendancies. I've known a lot of vegetarians and vegans in my time, and I haven't been preached to, and I've learned a lot about the versatility of tofu and soy.

Did run into some trouble in high school about the hunting thing, but surprisingly, it's usually *not* vegetarians who get upset - it's people who have no trouble eating meat from a store, as if someone raising animals for slaughter is better than picking one out of its natural habitat. At least the vegetarian is making the effort to remove cruelty from their diet.

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"One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings." -- Diogenes

"Vote Republican! We won't burn you at the stake for your religious beliefs or slaughter your family and steal your land." -- Ramblin' Dave

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Mama Duck:
Also, there is a small percentage of people sensitive to soy protein. It would be difficult for these people get enough protein from non-animal sources.

Why would it? There's plenty of non-animal sources of protein, soy being just one. You just have to make sure that you eat a varied diet - something that is good advice for everyone, meat-eater or not.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Chloe, I did read RangerDog's post. To me, he seemed to be chiding you slightly for passing a not-so-subtle judgement against carnivores... especially when you attempt to equate eating meat to eating babies...

Also, I think the words were just the right size for me, thanks for asking!

My "rising to the bait" when vegetarians use the suffering argument equates to me agreeing with them?? On what planet? I merely say that the suffering is warranted for production of food and that I don't care. When I counter with the possibility that plants may react to painful stimuli, it is THEM that get all huffy and defensive. I recognize that animals suffer (most briefly), but they won't recognize that plants may as well.

When studies have clearly shown that plants will sllloooooowllllyyyyy turn away from excess heat, poisonous atmospheres and pokey things (needles and the such), and that they emit an uber-supersonic noise when pruned... then that indicates SOME sort of reaction to discomfort... i.e.: suffering.

Can you remind me again which part of my point you had refuted, as my tiny, little mind must have missed it.

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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quote:
No one seems to demand to know the life-affirming credentials of people who represent themselves as pro-life. but as soon as animal issues are raised, there's a snippy "Do you eat meat?" "Do you wear leather?"
I think that most of the time when the topic of those who are pro-life comes up someone will make a comment to the effect of "It is the pro-choice people who are really pro-life - the life of the mother, etc."

I don't think pro-lifers get any sort of a free ride around here.

--------------------
"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Reaction to negative stimuli is not suffering. Suffering is an emotional activity. Plants don't have anywhere to organize their stimulation into an emotion.

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
Chloe, I did read RangerDog's post. To me, he seemed to be chiding you slightly for passing a not-so-subtle judgement against carnivores... especially when you attempt to equate eating meat to eating babies...

Also, I think the words were just the right size for me, thanks for asking!

You're right, and I take that back, as clearly it wasn't the *words* you were struggling with. It was the *numbers*. You know, those digits at the top of each post that indicate when it was made? Because if you'd mastered those, you would have seen that RangerDog posted that it was wrong to criticise other people's eating habits *before* I brought up the eating of babies. Because if he hadn't, I wouldn't have had anyone to be making fun of when I pretended to believe the same thing. See how that works?

quote:
My "rising to the bait" when vegetarians use the suffering argument equates to me agreeing with them?? On what planet? I merely say that the suffering is warranted for production of food and that I don't care. When I counter with the possibility that plants may react to painful stimuli, it is THEM that get all huffy and defensive. I recognize that animals suffer (most briefly), but they won't recognize that plants may as well.
If you don't care, stop arguing with vegetarians. Why do you care if someone else wants to give up meat? Why do you continually try to belittle their choice, since you supposedly care so very little yourself?

quote:
When studies have clearly shown that plants will sllloooooowllllyyyyy turn away from excess heat, poisonous atmospheres and pokey things (needles and the such), and that they emit an uber-supersonic noise when pruned... then that indicates SOME sort of reaction to discomfort... i.e.: suffering.

Can you remind me again which part of my point you had refuted, as my tiny, little mind must have missed it.

The bit about how more plants suffer to provide food for animals bred for meat-eaters than would if no one ate meat. That point. Do let me know if you need me to simplify further.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by LeaflessMapleTree:
quote:
No one seems to demand to know the life-affirming credentials of people who represent themselves as pro-life. but as soon as animal issues are raised, there's a snippy "Do you eat meat?" "Do you wear leather?"
I think that most of the time when the topic of those who are pro-life comes up someone will make a comment to the effect of "It is the pro-choice people who are really pro-life - the life of the mother, etc."

I don't think pro-lifers get any sort of a free ride around here.

I didn't suggest that they did. But tell me, where are the equivalents of "Do you eat meat?" or "Do you wear leather?" They might be "Have you adopted an unwanted baby?" or "Have you ever been in that position?" or even "Do you give every extra penny to charities that save lives?" But nobody asks those questions, because they would be unwarranted intrusions. If you object to cruelty against animals though, especially animals other than pets, people feel perfectly happy asking you about your other commitments to animal welfare, and often in a "Gotcha!" kind of way. Why is that?

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by Rebochan the Retail Reindeer:
But when dealing with the rare vegetarian whose already up in your face about his moral superiority for not deigning to club baby seals like the carnivores do, certainly pointing out their hypocrisy is a legitimate method of defense?

Um... not really. Using hypocrisy as a defense is invalid (IMO) because it doesn't address the real issue and just deflects the debate into other issues. It would be nearly impossible to live without causing some suffering to some other creatures. Nearly anything used causes some level of cruelty if you dig deep enough.

Cotton clothing involves machine harvesting so it would kill the creatures in the field. Spraying for boll weevils would be cruel to the boll weevils. Canvas shoes involve similar issues whether it be cotton or hemp or flax. All food, even fallen fruit is cruel to some other thing, even by denying it food in favor of the human.

Calling out the hyprocricy of vegitarians or vegans because harvesting grain can kill is similar to saying that the US can't condemn Saddam's Iraq for human rights violations because sometimes the US executes the wrong person.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Mistletoey Chloe:
quote:
Originally posted by LeaflessMapleTree:
quote:
No one seems to demand to know the life-affirming credentials of people who represent themselves as pro-life. but as soon as animal issues are raised, there's a snippy "Do you eat meat?" "Do you wear leather?"
I think that most of the time when the topic of those who are pro-life comes up someone will make a comment to the effect of "It is the pro-choice people who are really pro-life - the life of the mother, etc."

I don't think pro-lifers get any sort of a free ride around here.

I didn't suggest that they did. But tell me, where are the equivalents of "Do you eat meat?" or "Do you wear leather?" They might be "Have you adopted an unwanted baby?" or "Have you ever been in that position?" or even "Do you give every extra penny to charities that save lives?" But nobody asks those questions, because they would be unwarranted intrusions. If you object to cruelty against animals though, especially animals other than pets, people feel perfectly happy asking you about your other commitments to animal welfare, and often in a "Gotcha!" kind of way. Why is that?
Actually, I think so-called "unwarranted intrusions" into people's pro-life attidutes are acceptable here. Not a lack of intrusion into vegetarians' decisions not to eat meat.

Since when has it *not* been okay to challenge others' opinions on this board?

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"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Am I the only one who sees a difference between challenging other people's opinions (perfectly reasonable) and "Do you eat meat? Do you wear leather? Do you wear wool? Do you wear silk?"

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I see it Chloe. I think those kinds of attacks can be filed under "Ad Hominem." Just because your doctor is fat, doesn't mean that his advice that you should lose weight is invalid. Just because a vegetarian still wears wool, leather or silk, doesn't mean that their claims that the meat industry creates animal suffering are invalid.

I am still waiting for any kind of explanation about how plants are capable of emotion.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

Posts: 8745 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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