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Author Topic: Working Poor, Conservative, and Religious Americans Are the Most Generous
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara Claus at home:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elkhound:
that pay for these programs or are they paid for fully from the donations to the church?

We don't get anything from the government. We did get some startup money for some of the programs from foundations and corporations, but continuing operations are from donations from not only parishioners but also from the general public.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
We don't get anything from the government. We did get some startup money for some of the programs from foundations and corporations, but continuing operations are from donations from not only parishioners but also from the general public.

Your including the donations from the public is an indication that the members of your church are not the sole support of the good works done in the name of your church as your earlier post suggested.

Ok, so what I would want to know to make any study I was doing a valid study would be how much over the costs of strictly church business -- salaries and benefits, utilities, maintenance, mortgages, supplies, etc -- do the church members contribute. If I were doing a study related to the article in the OP, I would exclude all charitable donations which supported the church and include only those charitable donations which didn't benefit the church exclusively.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Esprise Me
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr:
And Esprise Me, most of those you listed would have been included as "charity" given Mr Brooks' definition of it.

Really? That's stretching the definition of "charity" quite a bit. Does he distinguish between "levels" of charity, or are political contributions lumped in with money for, say, orphanages?
It wouldn't surprise me to hear that religious conservatives, on average, donate more to political causes and candidates than do liberal atheists or agnostics. If those donations are being counted as "charity," I would be inclined to dismiss the whole survey as meaningless.

ETA: Since the post I quoted referred to a post I made two pages ago, I'll reiterate: my chosen beneficiaries include the ACLU, Lambda Legal, and Democratic political candidates.

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"If God wrote it, the grammar must be infallible. Perhaps it is we who are mistaken." -MapleLeaf

Posts: 977 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara Claus at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
We don't get anything from the government. We did get some startup money for some of the programs from foundations and corporations, but continuing operations are from donations from not only parishioners but also from the general public.

Your including the donations from the public is an indication that the members of your church are not the sole support of the good works done in the name of your church as your earlier post suggested.

Ok, so what I would want to know to make any study I was doing a valid study would be how much over the costs of strictly church business -- salaries and benefits, utilities, maintenance, mortgages, supplies, etc -- do the church members contribute. If I were doing a study related to the article in the OP, I would exclude all charitable donations which supported the church and include only those charitable donations which didn't benefit the church exclusively.

Well, if you're going to keep moving the goalposts. . . .

--------------------
"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Esprise Me:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr:
And Esprise Me, most of those you listed would have been included as "charity" given Mr Brooks' definition of it.

Really? That's stretching the definition of "charity" quite a bit. Does he distinguish between "levels" of charity, or are political contributions lumped in with money for, say, orphanages?
It wouldn't surprise me to hear that religious conservatives, on average, donate more to political causes and candidates than do liberal atheists or agnostics. If those donations are being counted as "charity," I would be inclined to dismiss the whole survey as meaningless.

ETA: Since the post I quoted referred to a post I made two pages ago, I'll reiterate: my chosen beneficiaries include the ACLU, Lambda Legal, and Democratic political candidates.

I do believe that ACLU and Lambda would qualify as charities, whereas the political candidates would not.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara Claus at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
We don't get anything from the government. We did get some startup money for some of the programs from foundations and corporations, but continuing operations are from donations from not only parishioners but also from the general public.

Your including the donations from the public is an indication that the members of your church are not the sole support of the good works done in the name of your church as your earlier post suggested.

Ok, so what I would want to know to make any study I was doing a valid study would be how much over the costs of strictly church business -- salaries and benefits, utilities, maintenance, mortgages, supplies, etc -- do the church members contribute. If I were doing a study related to the article in the OP, I would exclude all charitable donations which supported the church and include only those charitable donations which didn't benefit the church exclusively.

Well, if you're going to keep moving the goalposts. . . .
Huh? I haven't moved anything. In my initial post to this thread I mentioned only tithing; I intended but forgot to include all donations by church members used to support the church. But by no means did I move the goalposts.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara Claus at home:
]Huh? I haven't moved anything. In my initial post to this thread I mentioned only tithing; I intended but forgot to include all donations by church members used to support the church. But by no means did I move the goalposts. [/QB]

Yes you did. When I revealed that we did not get government funds, and corporate/foundation money only for startup, but did take private donations from people who were not members of the congregation, then you started on lumping those in with government/corporate/foundational contributions. In my book, that's moving the goalposts.

Here's another column on the same subject.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara Claus at home:
]Huh? I haven't moved anything. In my initial post to this thread I mentioned only tithing; I intended but forgot to include all donations by church members used to support the church. But by no means did I move the goalposts.

Yes you did. When I revealed that we did not get government funds, and corporate/foundation money only for startup, but did take private donations from people who were not members of the congregation, then you started on lumping those in with government/corporate/foundational contributions. In my book, that's moving the goalposts.

Bullshit. If you want to take credit for those programs being programs offered by your church paid for by church members' offerings given to the church then that's what they need to be -- paid for by church members' offerings not paid for by church members' offering except for the start up money you got from the government/foundations/corporations and those donations from non church members. You, sir, moved the goalposts, not me. You tried to cheat and give your church members full credit for something which they don't deserve full credit.

You said "I don't know about your church, but mine supports a soup kitchen, a free clinic, a homeless day shelter, a low-income bicycle giveaway program, and many other intitiatives that help people."

You should have said "I don't know about your church, but mine helps support a soup kitchen, a free clinic, a homeless day shelter, a low-income bicycle giveaway program, and many other intitiatives that help people."

That would have been honest.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara Claus at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara Claus at home:
]Huh? I haven't moved anything. In my initial post to this thread I mentioned only tithing; I intended but forgot to include all donations by church members used to support the church. But by no means did I move the goalposts.

Yes you did. When I revealed that we did not get government funds, and corporate/foundation money only for startup, but did take private donations from people who were not members of the congregation, then you started on lumping those in with government/corporate/foundational contributions. In my book, that's moving the goalposts.

Bullshit. If you want to take credit for those programs being programs offered by your church paid for by church members' offerings given to the church then that's what they need to be -- paid for by church members' offerings not paid for by church members' offering except for the start up money you got from the government/foundations/corporations and those donations from non church members. You, sir, moved the goalposts, not me. You tried to cheat and give your church members full credit for something which they don't deserve full credit.

You said "I don't know about your church, but mine supports a soup kitchen, a free clinic, a homeless day shelter, a low-income bicycle giveaway program, and many other intitiatives that help people."

You should have said "I don't know about your church, but mine helps support a soup kitchen, a free clinic, a homeless day shelter, a low-income bicycle giveaway program, and many other intitiatives that help people."

That would have been honest.

When someone comes into the church office and hands the secretary or the pastor a check, we don't ask, "Are you a parishoner or not?" When someone drops a wad of cash into the collection plate, we don't ask the same question. Forgive us for encouraging people to care for their fellow human beings without interrogating them.

--------------------
"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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