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Author Topic: Muslim woman cites gym after interrupted prayer
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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You do seem to be comparing this woman who went to a closet at a gym to pray, with surgeons and pilots actively involved in their jobs, and theaters showing movies.

I think your comparisons are invalid, in that the woman did not ask anybody to stop doing what they were normally doing. She went into a small room, out of the way of the other patrons. Now, if she had demanded everybody stop exercising while she prayed, that would be disruptive and unreasonable.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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DevilBunny
Deck the Malls


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By 'closet' I've been assuming the kind of cubicle we have here in the UK for sports centres that have swimming pools, that you go into to change.

Do they have those in gyms without swimming pools? Do they have those in the US? Do they not have locks on the door so you can guarantee privacy?

I too am feeling the need to know the full story...

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"For God has seven thousand names, and one of them is bastard"

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Tootsie Plunkette
Buy a Torch, Jeanette, Isabella


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This is about as far from an "unbiased" report as you'll ever see. It contains more information about the incident; no way to know if any of it is true.

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--Tootsie

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Unusual Elfin Lights
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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A closet here in North America is a small enclosed room, usually with no other outlet to the outside, used for storing something.

I believe your term is cupboard.

Cheers

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Tootsie Plunkette:
This is about as far from an "unbiased" report as you'll ever see. It contains more information about the incident; no way to know if any of it is true.

I would chuck this article just based on its overreliance of hyperbole. I also want to mail the writer a couple of valium so she can take it down just a titch.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Damian
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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So Muslim's should come out of the closet?

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"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie." - Tony Montana

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr:
You do seem to be comparing this woman who went to a closet at a gym to pray, with surgeons and pilots actively involved in their jobs, and theaters showing movies.

No, I'm not. I'm asking questions about the greater case: how far must business go to accomodate scheduled prayer?

In the specific case in question, there's too much that I do not know, and so cannot comment on it specifically. e.g., was the closet off-limits to customers, as most broom-and-cleaning-supplies closets are in such facilities?

It is the greater case that concerns me: I agree that this is perilously close to inviting a slippery-slope argument, but I want to know: will Muslims take up lawsuits in order to compel society to shut down for them?

Silas

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Damian
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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How do muslim kids go in American public schools? Are the schools required to provide special areas for them to pray? Or does the ban on religion in school extend to this as well?

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"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie." - Tony Montana

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Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Damian:
How do muslim kids go in American public schools? Are the schools required to provide special areas for them to pray? Or does the ban on religion in school extend to this as well?

There's no "ban" on praying, just on school- or teacher-led prayer. I've never had a class with Muslim students, but I would guess they are just allowed to go to another room for a few minutes. Doesn't seem like too crazy of a concession to make.

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This has been yet another... USELESS POST.

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Sharpened Steel
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Damian:
Or does the ban on religion in school extend to this as well?

I can't answer the rest of the questions in your post, but this question is based on a misunderstanding. There is nothing that bans religion in schools in the United States. The law bans public schools from forcing religion upon the students. Students are free to pray if they want to, but they, too, cannot force anyone to pray with them or discriminate against anyone who does not share their belief. I don't know how Muslim children deal with the prayer in school, or if children are even involved in the five prayer a day rule, but legally they cannot be prevented from doing it if they wished to.

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Get used to his bad habits and decide whether you can put up with them...the rest of your life. 'Cause if you don't, then one day, you find yourself in the shed, sharpening the axe and idly wondering how thick the human skull really is.
-ChickyBee

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I went to school with a number of Muslim kids, and I never noticed them doing anything, but the only prayer that would be during the school day would be the noon prayer, but not everyone strictly observes the set times for the prayers, so it is possible that they did the noon prayer after school, and the afternoon prayer on schedule.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Damian
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Astra:
quote:
Originally posted by Damian:
How do muslim kids go in American public schools? Are the schools required to provide special areas for them to pray? Or does the ban on religion in school extend to this as well?

There's no "ban" on praying, just on school- or teacher-led prayer. I've never had a class with Muslim students, but I would guess they are just allowed to go to another room for a few minutes. Doesn't seem like too crazy of a concession to make.
I'm not asking about concessions. I'm interested to know the legality of a public school being allowed to make school property available for religious worship.

As I (mis)understand the situation, the government are not allowed to help or hinder religious rituals. Providing a special area could be construed as helping, but not allowing it could be seen as hindering.

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"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie." - Tony Montana

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:


It is the greater case that concerns me: I agree that this is perilously close to inviting a slippery-slope argument, but I want to know: will Muslims take up lawsuits in order to compel society to shut down for them?

Silas

Is there absolutely any indication that Muslims might be doing such a thing, Silas?

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Damian:
quote:
Originally posted by Astra:
quote:
Originally posted by Damian:
How do muslim kids go in American public schools? Are the schools required to provide special areas for them to pray? Or does the ban on religion in school extend to this as well?

There's no "ban" on praying, just on school- or teacher-led prayer. I've never had a class with Muslim students, but I would guess they are just allowed to go to another room for a few minutes. Doesn't seem like too crazy of a concession to make.
I'm not asking about concessions. I'm interested to know the legality of a public school being allowed to make school property available for religious worship.

As I (mis)understand the situation, the government are not allowed to help or hinder religious rituals. Providing a special area could be construed as helping, but not allowing it could be seen as hindering.

There are two ways to go here. The simplest is that as long as all students have the ability to ask and receive or simply use without asking a room or part of the school, then there's no church/state issue. As long as the school is not only allowing such use for religious activities only. At my high school a Christian group used to meet every break and during lunch at the least used part of the school to pray. Perfectly allowed as long as it's not teacher-led.

The other way is "reasonable accomodation." School attendence is mandatory. Muslims must pray. If they're not allowed to pray at school then they have a conflict that they cannot obey the law without breaking their morals. As long as it is not an unreasonable burden, the school must accomodate the practice and provide space for Muslim students. Under accomodation they don't have to provide space for Christian, Jewish, Wiccan, etc students because they don't need the accomodation...their religions don't have the requirement to pray.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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Morgaine La Raq Star
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Damian:
quote:
Originally posted by Astra:
quote:
Originally posted by Damian:
How do muslim kids go in American public schools? Are the schools required to provide special areas for them to pray? Or does the ban on religion in school extend to this as well?

There's no "ban" on praying, just on school- or teacher-led prayer. I've never had a class with Muslim students, but I would guess they are just allowed to go to another room for a few minutes. Doesn't seem like too crazy of a concession to make.
I'm not asking about concessions. I'm interested to know the legality of a public school being allowed to make school property available for religious worship.

As I (mis)understand the situation, the government are not allowed to help or hinder religious rituals. Providing a special area could be construed as helping, but not allowing it could be seen as hindering.

My current church held its first service (approx 20 years ago) at a public elementary school. I know more than a few schools that allow churches to use their space on Sundays for worship.
I know there are religious organizations that meet in public schools & are OK with the schools. Fellowship of Christian Athletes is one example I can think of.
There was an article a few years ago in our local paper that talked about this issue. IIRC, the schools did try to find a place for the students to pray but it was at times difficult.

True, the government cannot support one religion over another but letting a student have an area to pray does not necessarily support 1 religion over another.

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I cannot live without books-Thomas Jefferson *~* A child educated only at school is an uneducated child - George Santayana
I'm going to pummel you with such zeal, Buddha will explode! *~* Never miss a good chance to shut up - Will Rogers

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Mickey Blue
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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There were a couple of kids who were of some religion that forbaid them from watching television/movies. When we would watch a filmstrip or a movie or some such thing they were excused to the library to read (or just outside the classroom if it was a very short movie).

This seems like fair accomidation that could easily be made for muslim children who needed to pray at certain times.

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"All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do"

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Damian
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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I am happy for people to pratice there religious beliefs anywhere, any time, as long as it does not hamper me unreasonably.

The OP mentioned that the women were in a closet, but a later article said they were blocking access to another patrons' locker. It would be reasonable to allow them to continue for a minute or two (I don't know how long these things are supposed to take), but after 5 minutes, I would be asking them to move out of the way.

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"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie." - Tony Montana

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:


It is the greater case that concerns me: I agree that this is perilously close to inviting a slippery-slope argument, but I want to know: will Muslims take up lawsuits in order to compel society to shut down for them?

Silas

Is there absolutely any indication that Muslims might be doing such a thing, Silas?
Silas was simply pursuing a line of thought, not drawing conclusions. Is this somehow not acceptable here anymore? Or not acceptable only in certain threads?

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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He is absolutely welcome to pursue it; I don't recall using any language that would imply otherwise.

As he is welcome to pursue it, I am under the impression I can question it.

Or can I not?

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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