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Author Topic: Love Me, I Celebrate Diversity
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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To what extent does he have a point?

I have heard that in a job opening announcement "This Institution welcomes applications from women and minorities," means "No white males need apply," but I'm not sure if I believe it.

On the other hand, a few years ago I applied for a position for which I was well qualified, and did not get it. A few months later at a professional convention I ran into one of the search committe who told me that she had wanted me for the job, but had been outvoted, and "if you had been a black, deaf, parapalegic lesbian you would have gotten it." Granted, she had had a couple of Cosmopolitans, but 'in vino veritas.'

I did get another job, although it was not as good in itself as that job would have been, it did lead to better things, so I'm not really resentful, but still, one wonders. . .

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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asnakeny
Deck the Malls


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quote:
The driver is a golden-coifed woman in sunglasses yakking on a cell phone. The rear window has a sticker: "Good neighbors come in all colors."

I get the message that driver is trying to convey: "You in that old car behind me. I am morally superior to you because I celebrate diversity, and, therefore, my wealth is deserved, as is your poverty." Somehow I doubt there is much diversity in her gated community, or her kids' school. I wonder if she thinks good neighbors come in all classes, too?

I'd probably be more sympathetic to whatever his point was if he wasn't so condescending.

He sees a blonde in a BMW with a pro-diversity sticker, and from that he assumes the driver is a liberal, classist, elitist who has kids and lives in a gated community.

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Is here no telephone?

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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The caricature is correct in one sense: those who celebrate diversity *are* morally superior to those who do not.

Inclusion is morally superior to exclusion; an "open door policy" is morally superior to the "color bar."

And, no, it isn't a "zero sum game." The idea that you must rob Peter to pay Paul is childish. Were that so, economic markets could not exist (nor civilization itself.)

Silas

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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But Silas, the only way Paul gets paid is when Peter pays for it.

And there is a BIG difference between those who "celebrate" diversity and those that LIVE it. I've seen too many people that were all about diversity until a 'nigger' wanted to move in next door. I HATE those kind of people. There is NO moral superiority to those kind of lip-service, double standard bastages.

Elkhound, I was told point blank several years ago that I shouldn't bother submitting a request for a commissioning program in the Coast Guard because of my ownership of a Caucasian penis. I checked the records, and the only people getting selected for the program were female and minority.

The program was overhauled since then - but by then I was too old to apply. Hurrumph...

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I think I agree with this though.

"I think most Americans of all races would agree that individuals of talent, who work hard but lack inherited privileges deserve some help, even if they do not belong to preferred minority groups. Any effort to truly diversify an educational setting has to take many variables into account, particularly class, or it will, in the end, become a magnifier of social inequality and a source of inter-group antagonism."

I think college assistance and those portions of admissions reserved for "diversity" (not including the merit and grades aspects) should be be based at LEAST partly, if not mostly, on lack of privelege, rather than strictly skin color. If a black or other minority student is underpriveleged, then that person will still be getting the help. What difference does it make if they get it based on skin color or based on deprivation, just so they get it? ~ And if they are not underpriveleged, if they are from a family that has achieved success and access to priveledge, then I don't see why they need help any more than a white family of privelege.

That just seems so reasonable and logical to me but from what I understand it isn't the way things are done most of the time.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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Simply Madeline
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by asnakeny:
I'd probably be more sympathetic to whatever his point was if he wasn't so condescending.

I'd be more sympathetic if he had the ovaries to use his real name.

quote:
Anyone who has ever been on an academic hiring committee has heard people say things like: "The last thing we need around here is more white males." Or, "We have to make sure that we don't accidentally interview any white males."
Really? Anyone who has ever been on an academic hiring committee has heard that?
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asnakeny
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Simply Madeline:
I'd be more sympathetic if he had the ovaries to use his real name.

I was going to mention that, but then I noticed his job title ("Associate Professor") which means (or at least, it meant at the schools I knew best) he is on tenure track but has not been granted tenure yet.

From what I can tell on the blogosphere, non-tenured individuals do tend to post anonymously (regardless of whether they are writing something controversial or not) as they do not want to risk doing or saying anything that may cost them in front of the committee. (YMMV, of course.)

I was more put off by the hyperbole and invective than the anonymous nature of his article.

(Assuming that he is indeed a he, of course. I wouldn't put it as too far-fetched if this article was written by a woman as a social experiment in "diversity studies" - Cindy Sherman meets Borat meets Alan Sokal.)

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Is here no telephone?

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Spooky Cactus
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Simply Madeline:
Really? Anyone who has ever been on an academic hiring committee has heard that?

I know someone who is regularly on an academic hiring committee and he sees a lot more (low-key and unacknowledged) traditional racism than this supposed 'reverse' kind.

Either that or fake-diversity people, who'll make some glowing statement about multiculturalism while eyeballing the one non-white person in the room.

The writer appears to have let his (for some reason I got a distinctly Straight-White-Male vibe from that piece, don't know about you) experience with fake-diversity people convince him that no genuine ones exist.

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'When the world is dead and gone, we will still be Rocking On!' (J.P.McCartney)

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:

I think college assistance and those portions of admissions reserved for "diversity" (not including the merit and grades aspects) should be be based at LEAST partly, if not mostly, on lack of privelege, rather than strictly skin color. If a black or other minority student is underpriveleged, then that person will still be getting the help. What difference does it make if they get it based on skin color or based on deprivation, just so they get it? ~ And if they are not underpriveleged, if they are from a family that has achieved success and access to priveledge, then I don't see why they need help any more than a white family of privelege.

As I understand it, the daughter of an African-American cardiologist would count towards a college's student body 'diversity', whereas the son of a white ditch digger would not.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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See, Elkhound, that's how I understand it too, and that is just really unfair, in my opinion.

If it were true that being black or some other minority pretty much guarenteed that person would be underpriveleged, it would make more sense - and from what people familiar with the history of these things tell me, that is in fact sort of the thinking behind it orginally.

I know that quite often it is still the case.

But it's not the case often enough that I think we need to rethink this and start offering help based on if someone needs it or not, rather than and independent of the accident of their pigmentation.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:
...I think college assistance and those portions of admissions reserved for "diversity" (not including the merit and grades aspects) should be be based at LEAST partly, if not mostly, on lack of privelege, rather than strictly skin color. If a black or other minority student is underpriveleged, then that person will still be getting the help. What difference does it make if they get it based on skin color or based on deprivation, just so they get it? ~ And if they are not underpriveleged, if they are from a family that has achieved success and access to priveledge, then I don't see why they need help any more than a white family of privelege....

I couldn't agree more. My daughters go to an inner city school which is minority white. I have know the last two graduating classes rather well. From my own experience, the diversity goals of colleges generally just make it easier for the middle class minorities to get into and pay for schools that they would qualify for without the race being taken into account. Meanwhile, the deserving but needy of all races seem to be left behind.

Beach...diversity should be about socio-economics more than skin color...Life!

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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BringTheNoise
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
Beach...diversity should be about socio-economics more than skin color...Life!

QFT

(Quoted For Truth)

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"The United States Government: significantly less cruel and sadistic than the Taliban." - Dara

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Monza305
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Spooky Cactus:
I know someone who is regularly on an academic hiring committee and he sees a lot more (low-key and unacknowledged) traditional racism than this supposed 'reverse' kind.

This is the reason why we have affirmative action in the first place. Just think how easy things would be if racism & sexism didn't exist.
Yes, I think it sucks that a perfectly qualified candidate gets turned down for a job, or grants, just because of the color of & possesion of a penis. But think of how many women & minorities don't even get consideration simply because they are a woman or a minority.
But I also agree that a person's economic situation should play into things also, especially if it involves grants & such. Like the example above of a black cardiologist's daughter counting toward diversity & a poor, white ditch digger's son won't. Why should the rich black girl get economic help just because she's black?

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I've got a pen in my pocket does that make me a writer?
Standing on the mountain doesn't make me no higher.
Putting on gloves don't make you a fighter.
And all the study in the world doesn't make it science. -Paul Weller

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Funny, in my wife's dept., they were joking that they needed to hire a white male because at the time, their dept. had ONLY minority and/or females. Of course, they the turned around and hired 3 white males in a row...

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And now for something completely different...

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Open Mike Night
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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As far as "reverse discrimination" goes, if you want to find out how things happen without a system geared toward diversity, watch the state of Michigan over the next couple of years.

we just passed Prposal 2 - Civil Rights Initiative that bans state funded programs and institutions from giving anyone preferencial treatment based on sex, race, religion or ethnicity.

It should be interesting to see how this works out. There will be a lot of valuable programs lost because of this amendment.

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On the crusade to eliminate Moral Asshattery wherever it exists
Member: AAMAH

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Open Mike Night:
As far as "reverse discrimination" goes, if you want to find out how things happen without a system geared toward diversity, watch the state of Michigan over the next couple of years.

we just passed Prposal 2 - Civil Rights Initiative that bans state funded programs and institutions from giving anyone preferencial treatment based on sex, race, religion or ethnicity.

It should be interesting to see how this works out. There will be a lot of valuable programs lost because of this amendment.

Or just look at California which already has that law in place.

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
But Silas, the only way Paul gets paid is when Peter pays for it.

...

Elkhound, I was told point blank several years ago that I shouldn't bother submitting a request for a commissioning program in the Coast Guard because of my ownership of a Caucasian penis. I checked the records, and the only people getting selected for the program were female and minority.

The program was overhauled since then - but by then I was too old to apply. Hurrumph...

I think it is unfortunate that many deserving candidates with pale penii are looked over during restructuring programs. But it's not so unfortunate that I think it makes the programs a bad thing. Sometimes individuals need to sacrifice for the good of the group. It sucks when you are the individual, but it is better for everyone.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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I had a conversation with my boss about "diversity" and "affirmative action", where his view was that we didn't need it. "It should be the best person for the job, period." Up on his wall was the org. chart (with picture) for our agency and I asked him to find any females or minorities. There were a couple of white women in the chart (about 3%), but the ONLY place where there were "minorities" was in the Affirmative Action dept.

So only white males can be rocket scientists?

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And now for something completely different...

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Freshman
We Three Blings


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What's affirmative action exactly? I know someone's told me the definition before, but I forgot. Open Mike Night: what kinds of programs would be lost? Do you mean things such as women's health care centers and such?

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"High-Five!" - Borat

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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The Federal government defines affirmative action as a plan to correct "under-utilization of minorities and women." Federal contractors are required to develop affirmative action plans so that if there are fewer minorities/women in their workforce than could reasonably be expected, then they must take steps to actively recruit, train, and hire minorities. Availability of minorities and women with the requisite skills is taken into account.

Racial quotas are illegal.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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educatedindian
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
As I understand it, the daughter of an African-American cardiologist would count towards a college's student body 'diversity', whereas the son of a white ditch digger would not. [/QB]

False. Colleges and universities count first generation students of any ethnicity as a valuable part of that diversity. Some also take into account social class, often by looking at the address of the applicant.

For that matter, many also have geographic quotas (even if they don't use the last half of the term) that would favor whites from the rural south or midwest.

Some of the assumption of some of the posts on this thread seem to be that if it weren't for those darned quotas, university admissions would be an ideal meritocracy. Legacy admissions, or admissions for children of faculty, often become de facto whites only quotas, or at least favor whites overwhelmingly.

Like some others on this thread, I'm bothered by the two faced sort of claim (that favors diversity in public only not to carry it out in reality) far more than bold faced hostility.

My own experience in trying to get into Purdue University was pretty stomach turning. Their diversity recruiter, at a recruiting fair for minority students, openly came up to each minority and female student one by one and said literally with his nose in the air:

"We won't lower our standards for You People."

Not surprisingly, he managed to drive away nearly everyone who was thinking of applying. It was only the intervention of the head of the History Dept. that talked me into applying anyway, and getting in. Thankfully their History Dept was nothing like that SOB.

Does anyone remember the 60 Minutes story about HBCUs that offer White scholarships?

Something slightly similar happened to a cousin of mine, her getting a scholarship to go to law school at an HBCU that needed a more diverse student body.

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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quote:
Sometimes individuals need to sacrifice for the good of the group. It sucks when you are the individual, but it is better for everyone.

This statement unsettles me.

Maple"Gotta claim my Jewish scholarship"Leaf

--------------------
"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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Freshman
We Three Blings


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Good example of diversity: My college had a christmases around the world thing and people of different cultures teaching about their holidays. It was awesome.

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"High-Five!" - Borat

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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So why did they call it "Christmases around the world"?

I wouldn't call a seminar about different races "White people around the world".

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"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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Spooky Cactus
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by MapleLeaf:
quote:
Sometimes individuals need to sacrifice for the good of the group. It sucks when you are the individual, but it is better for everyone.

This statement unsettles me.

Maple"Gotta claim my Jewish scholarship"Leaf

The wording makes it sound rather 1984, but I think the message was meant to be 'no system's perfect. This one's better, but every system, in practice, will end up giving some unfortunate people the shaft in the end.'

--------------------
'When the world is dead and gone, we will still be Rocking On!' (J.P.McCartney)

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Spooky Cactus:
quote:
Originally posted by MapleLeaf:
quote:
Sometimes individuals need to sacrifice for the good of the group. It sucks when you are the individual, but it is better for everyone.

This statement unsettles me.

Maple"Gotta claim my Jewish scholarship"Leaf

The wording makes it sound rather 1984, but I think the message was meant to be 'no system's perfect. This one's better, but every system, in practice, will end up giving some unfortunate people the shaft in the end.'
I just feel that people tend to say "Sometimes individuals need to sacrifice for the good of the group. It sucks when you are the individual, but it is better for everyone." until they are the individual. And then they piss and moan to the high heavens.

--------------------
"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by MapleLeaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Spooky Cactus:
quote:
Originally posted by MapleLeaf:
quote:
Sometimes individuals need to sacrifice for the good of the group. It sucks when you are the individual, but it is better for everyone.

This statement unsettles me.

Maple"Gotta claim my Jewish scholarship"Leaf

The wording makes it sound rather 1984, but I think the message was meant to be 'no system's perfect. This one's better, but every system, in practice, will end up giving some unfortunate people the shaft in the end.'
I just feel that people tend to say "Sometimes individuals need to sacrifice for the good of the group. It sucks when you are the individual, but it is better for everyone." until they are the individual. And then they piss and moan to the high heavens.
People might do that, but I try not to. I have never pissed or moaned to the high heavens, for one. I have been the individual. I have been in the group. It definitely sucks when you are the individual, but part of being in a group is doing what is best for the group.

And I would say that this system gives some people the shaft in the beginning. Once a organization has been restructured, it isn't always necessary to keep up with the shafting.

--------------------
I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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MaxKaladin
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by MapleLeaf:
quote:
Sometimes individuals need to sacrifice for the good of the group. It sucks when you are the individual, but it is better for everyone.

This statement unsettles me.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that way.
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