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Author Topic: "This board leans to the left"....?
PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Salamander:
quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Salamander:
[qb]Also, as a matter of splitting hairs... there is nothing stopping an agnostic person from also being religious. The two are not incompatible (it just means they disagree if the church doctrine states that God is knowable... but there are many people who consider themselves as some form of Christian despite not agreeing with every last item of doctrine).

Er no. You need to look up the definition of "agnostic".

Ho! Ha ha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin!

No... you do. In particular, I would suggest you check "agnostic theism". I believe you may be thinking of either non-practising agnosticism, apathetic agnosticism or something similar.

Oxford: "A person who believes that nothing is known, or can be known, of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena."
quote:

quote:
I take it no-one has any further doubt about the nature of the bias here.
Without clarification, I must assume you refer to "bias" in terms of an anti-religious bias? If that is so, I must vehemently protest. My disagreements with you have utterly nothing to do with your faith. Instead, it is entirely based upon your presumptious attitude, hyperbole and lack of critical thinking.

If it makes you sleep easier to think I dislike you because of your faith, then so be it. The simple reality is that I dislike you based entirely upon your character.

My comment referred to the general bias of this forum (the subject of this thread, remember?) not you personally. And while I'm sure I'm not in last place, I think I am behind the pack here as far as "presumptious attitude, hyperbole and lack of critical thinking". I'm sorry to hear you dislike me and my "character". I had thought up to now you at least had maintained an intelligent and respectful attitude despite our differences of opinion.
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
Oxford: "A person who believes that nothing is known, or can be known, of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena."

How does that preclude religion, then?

quote:
trollface said:
quote:
For another thing, I don't think the word is "arrogant" - it's almost insecure. I'm arrogant enough to think that people can see I'm "bright" without my having to tell them so.

I see that too. In fact, I see it as falling into that weird territory where it's both. I think it is arrogant to go round proclaiming how bright you are, but it's most likely an arrogance born out of insecurity.
So where does that leave me? I arrogantly proclaimed that I was bright enough to not have to tell people that I was bright because it would be insecure to have to do so and I'm not insecure... hmmm.

I agree, though. Arrogance in general might be linked to insecurity. I should be aiming for humility instead.

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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But would it be sincere humility? False humility is truly arrogant, as it's arrogance hiding as insecurity. Or something.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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DawnStorm
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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One thing about this board: if it's touchy.....we'll touch it!! [Wink]

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Leashes?! We don't need no stinking leashes!!

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Salamander
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
Oxford: "A person who believes that nothing is known, or can be known, of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena."

Ahh... excellent. We've resorted to copying dictionary entries. That dictionary entry defines strong agnosticism.

Here are some additional references for you:
Agnosticism as defined by the Catholic Encyclopedia
Wiki on Agnosticism
About.com article discussing agnosticism

quote:
My comment referred to the general bias of this forum (the subject of this thread, remember?) not you personally. And while I'm sure I'm not in last place, I am behind the pack here as far as "presumptious attitude, hyperbole and lack of critical thinking".
Ahh... you mean the political bias then? That was a little left-of-field seeing as how the discussion had turned to religion, which the OP was not about.

I fully realise that you view your posts as lucid and that you also hold the opinion that your weltanschauung is somehow a universal absolute. I, and a number of others, happen to greatly disagree.

--------------------
"victory thru self-deception"

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Salamander:
quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
[qb]Oxford: "A person who believes that nothing is known, or can be known, of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena."

Ahh... excellent. We've resorted to copying dictionary entries. That dictionary entry defines strong agnosticism.

Er, no, it defines the meaning of the word "agnostic". If you add on adjectives of course that will change the meaning. Sorry, I don't usually resort to dictionary-quoting, whilst they may not be absolutely prescriptive you can't define a word to mean just what you want it to mean. "Agnostic" and "Christian" are mutually exclusive.
quote:

quote:
My comment referred to the general bias of this forum (the subject of this thread, remember?) not you personally. And while I'm sure I'm not in last place, I think I am behind the pack here as far as "presumptious attitude, hyperbole and lack of critical thinking".
Ahh... you mean the political bias then? That was a little left-of-field seeing as how the discussion had turned to religion, which the OP was not about.

I fully realise that you view your posts as lucid and that you also hold the opinion that your weltanschauung is somehow a universal absolute. I, and a number of others, happen to greatly disagree.

No, I meant the religious bias; as I said IMO there is no overall political bias. My meaning may not have been totally lucid but you seem to be being obtuse. I suggest you rely on me to tell you what opinions I hold, rather than speculatively ascribing them. And if you want to show off your erudition with fancy foreign words you'd best learn how to type them correctly.
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Salamander
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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
Er, no, it defines the meaning of the word "agnostic". If you add on adjectives of course that will change the meaning. Sorry, I don't usually resort to dictionary-quoting, whilst they may not be absolutely prescriptive you can't define a word to mean just what you want it to mean. "Agnostic" and "Christian" are mutually exclusive.

In what way? Does acceptance of the teachings of Jesus Christ demand that God is a knowable entity? I'm not a Christian, I don't know these things. From what I have gathered from posts made by other self-ascribed Christians on this board and in other places, there can be fairly distinct differences between the various denominations... yet each is, at least to the outside observer, a valid form of Christianity.

Why is it that apparent disagreements over the triune still count as Christianity but agnosticism doesn't?

quote:
No, I meant the religious bias; as I said IMO there is no overall political bias. My meaning may not have been totally lucid but you seem to be being obtuse.
You referred to the OP, as if to say that I had made some grevious error by not understanding your claims of bias by assuming you were talking about a religious bias. To which I pointed out that the OP is about political bias and you now tell me that you meant religious bias... which is what I mentioned in the first place.

And I'm the one being obtuse?

quote:
I suggest you rely on me to tell you what opinions I hold, rather than speculatively ascribing them. And if you want to show off your erudition with fancy foreign words you'd best learn how to type them correctly.
Well... you did tell me and that is how I interpreted it. It seemed that you were taking personal experiences of anti-religious bias and talking about them as if they were a universal truth.

As for your criticism regarding my use of "fancy foreign words", I skipped capitalising the "W". My apologies.

--------------------
"victory thru self-deception"

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Salamander:
quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
Er, no, it defines the meaning of the word "agnostic". If you add on adjectives of course that will change the meaning. Sorry, I don't usually resort to dictionary-quoting, whilst they may not be absolutely prescriptive you can't define a word to mean just what you want it to mean. "Agnostic" and "Christian" are mutually exclusive.

In what way? Does acceptance of the teachings of Jesus Christ demand that God is a knowable entity? I'm not a Christian, I don't know these things. From what I have gathered from posts made by other self-ascribed Christians on this board and in other places, there can be fairly distinct differences between the various denominations... yet each is, at least to the outside observer, a valid form of Christianity.

Why is it that apparent disagreements over the triune still count as Christianity but agnosticism doesn't?

The fact that they are disagreeing about the nature of God, in itself proves that they all agree that God is real and that it is possible to know at least some things about His nature.
quote:

quote:
No, I meant the religious bias; as I said IMO there is no overall political bias. My meaning may not have been totally lucid but you seem to be being obtuse.
You referred to the OP, as if to say that I had made some grevious error by not understanding your claims of bias by assuming you were talking about a religious bias. To which I pointed out that the OP is about political bias and you now tell me that you meant religious bias... which is what I mentioned in the first place.

And I'm the one being obtuse?

Well no, I didn't actually refer to the OP. My mistake was to not make clear that my last paragraph was directed to the board as a whole even though the first part of my post was a reply to you.
quote:

quote:
I suggest you rely on me to tell you what opinions I hold, rather than speculatively ascribing them. And if you want to show off your erudition with fancy foreign words you'd best learn how to type them correctly.
Well... you did tell me and that is how I interpreted it. It seemed that you were taking personal experiences of anti-religious bias and talking about them as if they were a universal truth.
No, like many others here I was giving my opinion on the matter, with which all are free to disagree. I'm afraid this is one of the common ways in which those perceived as "religious" are treated differently: when the "non-religious" offer an opinion it is accepted as such, when the "religious" offer an opinion they are often accused of "pontificating" and met with the attitude "you think you've got a direct line to God and that everything you say is infallible and that you can tell me what to think/do - well you can't! [Mad] "
quote:

As for your criticism regarding my use of "fancy foreign words", I skipped capitalising the "W". My apologies.

Accepted. Sorry for nitpick; I've had quite a few of my own.
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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
quote:
Originally posted by Salamander:
. . . I skipped capitalising the "W". My apologies.

Accepted. Sorry for nitpick; I've had quite a few of my own.
I'm glad that you two have made peace over this, at least; I was gonna jump in with my own opinions...mostly because I really love the word "weltanschauung!" I first bumped into it in high school, reading Freud, and just thought it was, like, so groovy a word, y'know?

Silas (Californian, through and through!)

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evilrabbit
Jingle Bell Hock


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Wow. "Weltanschauung" is a great word! I love the German language, where else are you gonna find a vowel cluster like that?

--------------------
"My sandwich choice is uncertain, until I actually order. It's like Schrodinger's Sandwich."
"Is plutonium involved in this sandwich in any way?"
"Maybe."

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Salamander
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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
The fact that they are disagreeing about the nature of God, in itself proves that they all agree that God is real and that it is possible to know at least some things about His nature.

Hmmm... I disagree with that but at least I now understand your reasoning for claiming mutual exclusivity. I disagree with it, but I understand it.

quote:
Well no, I didn't actually refer to the OP.
No, you didn't specifically refer to the OP, your comment was "the subject of this thread, remember?" which considering the somewhat fluid nature of threads on this board means you could've been talking about any subject raised thus far... I defaulted to the subject first raised which was political bias.

So you weren't clear and I picked the wrong subject. Now I think we're both clear. Correct?

quote:
My mistake was to not make clear that my last paragraph was directed to the board as a whole even though the first part of my post was a reply to you.
As above, I think we're on the same page now... so apology accepted.
quote:
No, like many others here I was giving my opinion on the matter, with which all are free to disagree. I'm afraid this is one of the common ways in which those perceived as "religious" are treated differently: when the "non-religious" offer an opinion it is accepted as such, when the "religious" offer an opinion they are often accused of "pontificating" and met with the attitude "you think you've got a direct line to God and that everything you say is infallible and that you can tell me what to think/do - well you can't! [Mad] "
Sorry, but I really have to disagree with you on this point. You weren't treated differently because of your religion, you were treated differently because you did not give me the impression that you were stating opinion. It came across that you were stating facts, like your comment regarding an increase in organisation.

When you phrase your opinions in such a way as to suggest they are facts, people will definitely demand proof. Particularly when you use phrases like "universally acknowledged".

If you'd said "In my experience -- based on members of my family, my workmates and those I socialise with -- there is definitely a trend towards increased organisation", I would have had no issue. How could I refute that? I can't argue that you did not experience the things you claim. At best, I would have said "Really? That's certainly not happening around here".

You then claimed "most people practising a religion in Australia don't dare admit it..." and that also directly contradicts what I have experienced. Mrs Sal is a pagan and neither she or any of her pagan friends have any issue with identifying as such. Sure, Mrs Sal doesn't make a point of mentioning it without the topic of spirituality coming up first but that's not out of fear. Her mother is Christian (I have no idea what denomination, Anglican maybe) and is happy to mention that she is a Christian.

One of Mrs Sal's workmates is a Jehovah's Witness and has no issue in letting it be known. Indeed, she has faced no hostility over the matter -- the office "Christmas Party" has been renamed the "End of Year Party" in order for her to attend.

Bottom line is that I disagreed with your opinions about religious people feeling like they have to hide their religion in Australia. As I've stated several times, my cause to disagree with you has nothing to do with your own religiousosity (is that even a word?)

quote:
quote:
As for your criticism regarding my use of "fancy foreign words", I skipped capitalising the "W". My apologies.
Accepted. Sorry for nitpick; I've had quite a few of my own.
That's fine.

ETA: Fixed quote coding.

--------------------
"victory thru self-deception"

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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IMO = In My Opinion
ISTM = It Seems To Me
And the phrase I actually used was "I thought (note past tense) it was pretty much universally acknowledged...". OK, the Jane Austen allusion is a bit obscure. But especially as I posted this in reply to someone who had the opposite opinion, I can hardly have been claiming that my opinion is "universal truth".

"mention that she's a Christian"? Sure, not usually much of a problem. But I could count on my fingers the number of times I have seen anyone in "mixed" company admit without nervous apprehension that s/he religiously practised Christianity. And very few are willing to attempt any defence from the subsequent criticism other than a withdrawal into silence.

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Archie2K
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by evilrabbit:
Wow. "Weltanschauung" is a great word! I love the German language, where else are you gonna find a vowel cluster like that?

onomatopoeia

It's a shame that onomatopoeia isn't onomatopoeic. One of my proudest moments was guessing the folowing word in "Maths hangman"

_ _ _ _ _ _
a e i o u


--------------------
Vox populi vox canem

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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Rhythm?

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Syzygy?

There's a six-letter English word that consists only of vowels... bet nobody knows what it is.

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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
"Agnostic" and "Christian" are mutually exclusive.

I believe that there are a few Anglican bishops who are fairly open about their agnosticism... Richard Holloway, former Primate of Scotland seems the most prominent.

Richard Holloway and 'Godless Morality' (a review of one of his books)

quote:
We either admit that God is, to some extent at least, a human construct that is subject to criticism and evolution, or we weld religion to unsustainable prejudices that guarantee its rejection for the best, not the worst of reasons, so that to abandon it becomes a virtuous act of revolt against an oppressive force that imprisons rather than liberates humanity.
Transcript of interview with David Frost

quote:
... it seems to me that what Christianity should now be about is not believing things about Jesus but imitating the style of Jesus, doing the kind of Jesus things.
quote:
I had a couple of puffs on a friendís joint once if thatís experimentation then Iím
Einstein.

(Er... that one's a bit off topic but I thought it was funny.)

Another quote from him

quote:
Holloway later described the funeral in these words: ďHere was I, an agnostic Anglican, taking the service in a Presbyterian church, for a dead atheist politician. And I thought that was just marvelous.Ē
He would certainly fall into my definition of agnostic, even though he talks about God a lot. Not sure whether he matches yours. Does he match your definition of Christian? He doesn't seem much concerned about the "divine nature" of Christ.
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Richard W
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:

Nope - although a word consisting of no letters at all is even more impressive than the "just vowels" one! Excellent...
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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:

Nope - although a word consisting of no letters at all is even more impressive than the "just vowels" one! Excellent...
Thank you. It's pronounced with the schwa sound, but very quietly.
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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
"Agnostic" and "Christian" are mutually exclusive.

I believe that there are a few Anglican bishops who are fairly open about their agnosticism... Richard Holloway, former Primate of Scotland seems the most prominent.

Richard Holloway and 'Godless Morality' (a review of one of his books)

quote:
We either admit that God is, to some extent at least, a human construct that is subject to criticism and evolution, or we weld religion to unsustainable prejudices that guarantee its rejection for the best, not the worst of reasons, so that to abandon it becomes a virtuous act of revolt against an oppressive force that imprisons rather than liberates humanity.
Transcript of interview with David Frost

quote:
... it seems to me that what Christianity should now be about is not believing things about Jesus but imitating the style of Jesus, doing the kind of Jesus things.
quote:
I had a couple of puffs on a friendís joint once if thatís experimentation then Iím
Einstein.

(Er... that one's a bit off topic but I thought it was funny.)

Another quote from him

quote:
Holloway later described the funeral in these words: ďHere was I, an agnostic Anglican, taking the service in a Presbyterian church, for a dead atheist politician. And I thought that was just marvelous.Ē
He would certainly fall into my definition of agnostic, even though he talks about God a lot. Not sure whether he matches yours. Does he match your definition of Christian? He doesn't seem much concerned about the "divine nature" of Christ.
As I said, a qualified phrase containing the word obviously has a different meaning to the unqualified word. Despite his odd description of himself as "an agnostic Anglican", there is nothing in any of the cites you posted which even suggests that he does not believe in God.

There are, or at least were, some Christians who do not believe in the divine nature of Christ. But it would be impossible to be a Christian and deny that it is possible to know whether God is even real. For one thing you'd have to perform an awful lot of impossible mental somersaults to explain to yourself why Christ Himself and all of His other followers throughout history have placed such great emphasis on God.

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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Archie2K
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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RichardW got it. The clue being that it was from maths hangman and syzygy has something to do with eclipses and ... look it up in the dictionary.

quote:
It's pronounced with the schwa sound, but very quietly.
The schwa is silent. Got it. Given the British perchance for taking random parts of words and making them silent (Loughborough being a classic example) I wouldn't put it past it being amalgamated into the language within a couple of years.

Regards Richard's puzzle, I looked it up and nope, never heard of that word before.

--------------------
Vox populi vox canem

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Archie2K:
Regards Richard's puzzle, I looked it up and nope, never heard of that word before.

I've just been looking it up. I found a dictionary which is just words consisting entirely of vowels. I think that some of them are simply taking the piss, though:

quote:
eeee eeee eeee.
n. the bad sound of someone blowing a recorder poorly; see also eee-eee-eee.

Also:

quote:
eeeeee.
5. interj. a cry of shock, as upon discovering the living heart of a baby in the refrigerator[...]

I'm glad that there's a word for that. And there's me not knowing what to call that specific cry all these years. I feel stupid now.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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It's good though, isn't it? Worth remembering for when you're stuck with all vowels in Scrabble. (I don't think I've ever used it, but it's good to know it's there...)

(edit) This was in reply to Archie, not trollface.

The word I was thinking of is "euouae", which is something to do with cadences in Gregorian chant. It's in Chambers, which is more authoritative than a made-up internet dictionary, so it counts as a proper word!

I have a feeling there's a second one, too, but I can't remember what that is.

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Is it to do with music?

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
Is it to do with music?

Yes, sorry. I edited my post to include the answer while you were replying...
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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See, now your edit makes me look stupid. [And now you've posted while I was posting, that makes this look snarky] That is the one I'd just found.

I've also found this:

quote:
Ouaoua.
1. n. a populated place in the Guera region of Chad.
2. n. a stream in Central African Republic.
3. n. a stream in the Mali region of Guinea.

I'm not sure if that would count, though, as I can't remember if place names are allowed in Scrabble.

[Edited to add]And if they are, howsabout this baby?

quote:
Ouaouiye.
n. a populated place in the Al Hasakah and Ar Raqqah regions of Syria.



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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
See, now your edit makes me look stupid. That is the one I'd just found.

I should add my editing habit to the "bad poster" thread. Usually I only edit if nobody has posted after me, but it can easily go wrong... I do it far too much.
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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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And I've just edited again while you were posting. This is too confusing. I'm going to go into meltdown.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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BringTheNoise
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
But it would be impossible to be a Christian and deny that it is possible to know whether God is even real.

I'm a living paradox then. Apparently. I believe God is real, but I don't know God is real (or that it is possible to know for certain that God is real).

As for the stock that Christianity has put in God - simple. Christians believe in the existence of God, even though they cannot know whether or not this is true, and act accordingly. Faith rather than knowledge, if you will.

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"The United States Government: significantly less cruel and sadistic than the Taliban." - Dara

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evilrabbit
Jingle Bell Hock


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So many lovely words...

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"My sandwich choice is uncertain, until I actually order. It's like Schrodinger's Sandwich."
"Is plutonium involved in this sandwich in any way?"
"Maybe."

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by BringTheNoise:
quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
But it would be impossible to be a Christian and deny that it is possible to know whether God is even real.

I'm a living paradox then. Apparently. I believe God is real, but I don't know God is real (or that it is possible to know for certain that God is real).

As for the stock that Christianity has put in God - simple. Christians believe in the existence of God, even though they cannot know whether or not this is true, and act accordingly. Faith rather than knowledge, if you will.

You seem to be very confused about just what you do believe. Having doubts about your belief is not agnosticism. Agnostics deny that it is possible for them or anyone else to know whether God is real, and that those who say they believe in God are either liars or dupes.
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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
Agnostics deny that it is possible for them or anyone else to know whether God is real . . .


This is essentially correct.

quote:
. . . and that those who say they believe in God are either liars or dupes.
But this is absolutely not true. Most agnostics have some respect for the faithful, and, while perhaps disagreeing with them, would refrain from any insulting characterization.

I personally believe you are incorrect, but I see no evidence whatsoever that you are either a liar or a dupe. There are lots and lots of different ways to be wrong. (I ought to know!)

Silas

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PeterK
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
Agnostics deny that it is possible for them or anyone else to know whether God is real . . .


This is essentially correct.

quote:
. . . and that those who say they believe in God are either liars or dupes.
But this is absolutely not true. Most agnostics have some respect for the faithful, and, while perhaps disagreeing with them, would refrain from any insulting characterization.

I personally believe you are incorrect, but I see no evidence whatsoever that you are either a liar or a dupe. There are lots and lots of different ways to be wrong. (I ought to know!)

Silas

Sorry, but the first part oif the definition implies the latter. I wasn't suggesting that agnostics go around hurling insults at theists all the time; I was talking about what they believe. God is either real or unreal. Either we can know something about Him or we can't. Obviously those who believe in God also implicitly believe that those who profess agnosticism are either liars or dupes, but they are usually too polite to tell them this in so many words.
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Em
Happy Holly Days


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I call myself an agnostic, but really I'm more of an apatheist (a term I was quite disappointed to find out someone had come up with before I invented it). I don't know that DOYC exists and I don't know that DOYC doesn't exist, but really I don't care either way. I have no desire to vilify people of any religion because, honestly, it's just not important to me. I suspect that many self-styled agnostics are the same. "Agnostic", to me, is simply the label which has the least baggage attached.

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What the NFBSK does YOMANK mean?

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