quote:Quebec is a nation within a united Canada, but will never stand alone, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Wednesday.
Forced to wade into the debate thanks to a Bloc Québécois motion to declare Quebec a nation, Mr. Harper told Parliament that Quebec sovereignty proponents were intent on separation, but that would never come to pass.
"Quebeckers ... know they've participated in the founding of Canada and its development and in its greatness. They know that they've protected their language and unique culture, but they've also promoted their values and interests within Canada," Mr. Harper said.
"The real question is straightforward. Do Quebeckers form a nation within a united Canada? The answer is yes.
"Do Quebeckers form an independent nation from Canada? The answer is no, and it will always be no."
(Edited for the non-Canadians among us who might not know that P.M. refers to prime minister.)
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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Congratulations Mr. Harper, by calling Quebec a nation you've given seperatists what they wanted.
Jackass.
-------------------- In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte Posts: 1801 | From: The Forest City, Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TwoGuyswithaHat: Congratulations Mr. Harper, by calling Quebec a nation you've given seperatists what they wanted.
Jackass.
Is this one of those issues in which words can mean everything, and one cannot take "nation" as a figurative, rather than literal, term?
Pogue
-------------------- Let's drink to the causes in your life: Your family, your friends, the union, your wife. Posts: 11325 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Originally posted by TwoGuyswithaHat: Congratulations Mr. Harper, by calling Quebec a nation you've given seperatists what they wanted.
Jackass.
Well, they are certainly a nation, just not a state.
-------------------- ÒIf you shut up truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will blow up everything in its way.Ó -Emile Zola Posts: 1046 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Pogue Mahone: Is this one of those issues in which words can mean everything, and one cannot take "nation" as a figurative, rather than literal, term?
Pogue
The arguement from the seperatists has been that Quebec is a(n ethnic) nation and Canada is not. Therefore, Canada is divisible but Quebec is not. That is to say, once Quebec leaves Confederation it becomes an indivisible civic nation. It takes some mental gymnastics on your part to follow that twisted logic.
For a sitting Prime Minister to say that "Quebec is a nation" is huge in terms of national politics.
Sorry I'm unable to give much more of an explanation or insight at this time, but I'm still trembling slightly with anger and am not quite able to articulate myself adequately. When it comes to the notion of Quebec seperatism, it is one of my hot button issues.
-------------------- In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte Posts: 1801 | From: The Forest City, Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Trowa: Well, they are certainly a nation, just not a state.
Not neccessarily so. What comprises the Quebec nation? Is it solely Francophone Quebecois? Anglophone Quebecois? Allophone Quebecois? The Cree of Northern Quebec?
If we are to buy that Francophone Quebecois alone are a nation, that is to the detrement of all others who live in Quebec. However, if to live in Quebec itself is the sole requirement for nationhood, then they are not a nation unto themselves, but rather members of the nation of Canada.
However, that there is the rub. Seperatists see nation as equating state, and by a sitting Prime Minister saying they are a nation gives the seperatist movement new ammunition in their battle for an independent Quebec.
-------------------- In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte Posts: 1801 | From: The Forest City, Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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Damn. Damn. Damn. C'mon Bob Rae. Win the Liberal leadership and get into power.
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TwoGuyswithaHat: When it comes to the notion of Quebec seperatism, it is one of my hot button issues.
May I ask why?
Pogue
-------------------- Let's drink to the causes in your life: Your family, your friends, the union, your wife. Posts: 11325 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
When it comes to quebec separation, I turn into a real redneck conservative.
I mean, all things being equal, I do not at all want it to separate, simply because I think it's one of the better places in canada. well, produces the best looking women anyway.
But given what we've gone through over the last half century (atleast) I really think it's time for the tough love.
Quebec been's trying to separate for so long, and yet it hasn't happened. So many other countries have been created and gained independence during the time Quebec has been "trying," and yet Quebec still fails. I'm almost forced to conclude that they are either astoundingly incompetant, or they don't actually mean it.
Given those two options, I tend towards the latter, and in that case, they're just jerking us around and it's time to call the bluff. Tell them to nfbsk or get off the pot. Stay or go, but no more bellyaching.
-------------------- a moment for old friends now estranged, victims of the flux of alliances and changing perceptions. There was something there once, and that something is worth honoring as well. - John Carroll Posts: 3375 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by TwoGuyswithaHat: When it comes to the notion of Quebec seperatism, it is one of my hot button issues.
May I ask why?
Pogue
Well, how would you feel if one of your states tried to separate? (Yes, I know that in the U.S. it is currently illegal, but the first time a couple states tried to leave there was a huge war over it.)
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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I was thinking about Scottish devolution/independence. The difference, I think, is that while the "nations and regions" that make up the UK are separately identifiable (i.e. England, Scotland, Wales, NI), I don't know if there is a similar national identity for the bits of Canada that aren't Quebec. That would make a UK-type set-up difficult.
Scotland alone is a recent article on the independence question, interesting in that it is from a Tory perspective...
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Pogue Mahone: May I ask why?
Pogue
In a lot of ways, the seperatists wish to see themselves as forming an ethnic nation. However, what is conveniently forgotten then is the sizeable Francophone population living outside Quebec, it is as if those Francophones living outside of the civic boundry of the province of Quebec are not "french" enough.
In a lot of situations, the notion of "French" derives solely from the notion of language. I am not considered "French" enough simply because my grasp of the language is more than lacking.
However, on a more practical and pragmatic level I do not buy into their arguments for wishing to tear the Canadian nation asunder which would serve no purpose, reap no benefit and be a detrement to this nation from sea to sea to sea.
A Mari Usque Ad Mare (Ad Mare)*
*I also have no grasp of Latin apparently.
-------------------- In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte Posts: 1801 | From: The Forest City, Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TwoGuyswithaHat: When it comes to the notion of Quebec seperatism, it is one of my hot button issues.
May I ask why?
Pogue
For me it's the arrogance of assuming that they are the only distinct society worth protecting. (This is one of the reasons given when asked why separatists want to separate) Canada is separated by huge tracts of land that create unique cultures all over. The Newfoundlanders, the Acadians, the various Native peoples, and the Ukrainians in North Alberta are just four off the top of my head. Out of all of the distinct societies in Canada only the Quebecois assume that theres is the only society that demands and deserves protection by forcing a separation.
It's also the arrogance of the notion that if they do separate they get to keep the Canadian dollar as their trade currency and they don't have to settle land claims with the local Natives (which would cause them to lose three quarters of their land including the hydro plant).
Having said all of this I am a huge fan of Quebec. I have found the people to be wonderful, the culture to be fun loving and open, and the art is spectacular. (And for sheer selfishness I want Quebec to stay. Canada needs the culture that comes from Quebec. It has an old world charm of which we need more)
I even agree with the BQ (Bloc Quebecois, the leading separatist party in Quebec) on a number of social policies. But the constant whinging about oppression and the need to separate with no logical argument to do so is driving me nuts.
-------------------- George: So, my whole life, everything, all I get to keep are thoughts and memories? Rube: That's all we ever have peanut. Posts: 12 | From: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MapleLeaf: Well, how would you feel if one of your states tried to separate?
Actually, there area few states I wouldn't mind cutting off from the rest of us.
Pogue
-------------------- Let's drink to the causes in your life: Your family, your friends, the union, your wife. Posts: 11325 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Originally posted by MapleLeaf: Well, how would you feel if one of your states tried to separate?
I see a different US analogy: what if the Navajo Nation tried to separate (or even form its own state out of parts of Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah)? Personally, I wouldn't care. The status quo doesn't bother me either: an ethnic "nation" within a sovereign state (or, if you will, within several sovereign states within a federation).
I don't automatically leap from "nation" to "separation". If I was closer to the issue, perhaps I would.
Besides, I heard that the Maritimes would like to join the US if an independent Quebec cut them off from Ottawa. So, the more the merrier!
Posts: 389 | From: Anchorage, AK | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TwoGuyswithaHat: Congratulations Mr. Harper, by calling Quebec a nation you've given seperatists what they wanted.
Jackass.
Well it's either he state it on the 22nd and take the initiative, or have the Bloc state it on the 23rd with their motion (minus the within Canada).
You got to give him credit, he may have wording that appeases separatist sentiment, but it includes wording that keeps confederation whole.
Posts: 2064 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Aug 2004
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Canuckistan
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy: I see a different US analogy: what if the Navajo Nation tried to separate (or even form its own state out of parts of Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah)?
This analogy would work only if the Navajo already had one of the states. Quebeckers already have a province within Confederaton.
quote:Personally, I wouldn't care. The status quo doesn't bother me either: an ethnic "nation" within a sovereign state (or, if you will, within several sovereign states within a federation).
I don't automatically leap from "nation" to "separation". If I was closer to the issue, perhaps I would.
The Parti Quebecois has held referendums on seceding from Canada twice in 25 years. Separation is the goal of a lot of the Quebec nationalists.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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"Congratulations Mr. Harper, by calling Quebec a nation you've given seperatists what they wanted." Actualy, he's striping them of the main argument they (well, I should have written 'we')had against him. Very clever move.
"(...)or they don't actually mean it." I think that you are right. Whinning about federal interference yet not willing to leave the confort zone that is Canada is a typical trait of the Québecois moyen (and, as a separatist, I do have to admit that I am living in a particularly nice & sympathetic country (and no, by country, I am not talking of Québec (not yet))
"(...)well, produces the best looking women anyway." Stereotype! (but tends to be true)
"Canada needs the culture that comes from Quebec." That's quite nice of you to say so but (and I don't mean to be snarky or anything) except for Le cirque du Soleil and Celine Dion, I (pretentiously) assume that you would be unable to name 2 films that came out from Québec in the last 2 years, or 2 popular singers, or a popular play, or a visual artist... and I would find it quite hard myself to name a canadian popular artist other than Rick Mercer or Whateverhisname Mulroney. My point? We do not really share our cultures.
That being said, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Not in our lifetime will Québec separate... we're too much chicken shit for that!
Posts: 20 | From: Montréal | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Well I thought of Scottish separation too and compared this appeasement of Bloc Quebecois with the devolved parliament in Scotland. Giving something may actually appease moderate separatists and lessen the chance of full independence. See also Northern Ireland.
quote:Pogue Actually, there area few states I wouldn't mind cutting off from the rest of us.
Can I start with Delaware - The Pointless State?
Posts: 1985 | From: Reading, England | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Originally posted by karamazoune: I (pretentiously) assume that you would be unable to name 2 films that came out from Québec in the last 2 years, or 2 popular singers, or a popular play, or a visual artist... and I would find it quite hard myself to name a canadian popular artist other than Rick Mercer or Whateverhisname Mulroney.
To be honest, I'd be hard pressed to name any of the above for Canada in general, let alone just Quebec, and I even worked in the arts (literary, specifically) within the last two years.
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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You gave us all Celine Dion, Avril Lavigne, Cindi Lauper and Bryan Adams. And for that you must be exterminated.
Though also Our Lady Peace and (the potentially insane) Propagandhi. For this I offer just life imprisonment for all Canadians.
Posts: 1985 | From: Reading, England | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:"Canada needs the culture that comes from Quebec." That's quite nice of you to say so but (and I don't mean to be snarky or anything) except for Le cirque du Soleil and Celine Dion, I (pretentiously) assume that you would be unable to name 2 films that came out from Québec in the last 2 years, or 2 popular singers, or a popular play, or a visual artist... and I would find it quite hard myself to name a canadian popular artist other than Rick Mercer or Whateverhisname Mulroney. My point? We do not really share our cultures. [/QB]
You'd be surprised how much those of us in the arts community share. But to answer your questions:
Films: C.R.A.Z.Y. and Bon Cop, Bad Cop, or, if you count that last one as a co-production then how about The Child or Cheech (And I'm a huge fan of Michel Therriault as an actor).
Plays: e by Daniel Danis or Aphrodite en '04 by Évelyne de la Chenelière. And I still love all of Michel Tremblay's stuff.
Singers: For older more traditional singers I'd go with Claude Gautier and for newer I'd say I like Zeeza's stuff. Or if we go non-french I liked The Box in the 80s and Kashtin more recently. And of course the brilliance that is Men Without Hats from way back when.(I do understand that Celine Dion is not representative of Quebec singers. I feel your pain at having her represent your province)
Visual Artists: Ya got me there. I'm not big into vis. arts to begin with so my knowledge of good Canadian artists is limited let alone Quebecois artists. Jean-Pierre Perreault is a great choreographer but I'm not sure if that counts as vis. arts or not.
I'm not saying that my provincial brethern share my knowledge of Quebec art but some of us do truly love and appreciate what Quebecois artists bring to our national landscape.
-------------------- George: So, my whole life, everything, all I get to keep are thoughts and memories? Rube: That's all we ever have peanut. Posts: 12 | From: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada | Registered: Nov 2006
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Canuckistan
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Jenn: To be honest, I'd be hard pressed to name any of the above for Canada in general, let alone just Quebec, and I even worked in the arts (literary, specifically) within the last two years.
Count me among the stumped as well. Of course, I'm not that big into the arts to begin with.
ETA: Of course, I could always just look at Wacky Nephews' response.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Using two years as a cut off point I'd really have to think hard to come up with examples from any culture not just Canada or Quebec. Right off the top of my head I can't think of anyone "big" in the arts who has just burst onto the scene.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by karamazoune: "Congratulations Mr. Harper, by calling Quebec a nation you've given seperatists what they wanted." Actualy, he's striping them of the main argument they (well, I should have written 'we')had against him. Very clever move.
I don't think that he has stripped them of anything, but rather emboldened them. What was once a strive for recognition of a "distinct society" has become a call for the status of nation. It's a slippery slope, and Mr. Haper is doing exactly what Brian Mulroney did in courting the seperatist vote. To him he is playing politics with consequences be damned.
quote:I (pretentiously) assume that you would be unable to name 2 films that came out from Québec in the last 2 years, or 2 popular singers, or a popular play, or a visual artist...
Films: The Barbarian Invasions (yeah it was 2003, but it won the 2004 Oscar so does that count?) Bon Cop, Bad Cop -- a fantastic movie poking fun at everyone. Thoroughly enjoyable. C.R.A.Z.Y. -- unfortuneately I've not seen it, but the requirement is only to name.
Music:
Though I cannot stand them for their pro-seperatists lyrics, Les Cowboys Frigrants
Simple Plan.
I really enjoy the music of Blou, but they hail from Nova Scotia.
Malajube.
Godspeed You! Black Emperor.
Sam Roberts.
Wolf Parade.
Popular Play: I'd be hard pressed to name a popular English commerical play that hasn't appeared with multi-million dollar budget.
Visual Artist: Same deal, I'm not much up artists outside of some local artists and the Group of Seven.
But you are still free to presume all you want.
ETA: Quasi-spanked by the wackiest of Nephews.
-------------------- In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte Posts: 1801 | From: The Forest City, Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Archie2K: You gave us all Celine Dion, Avril Lavigne, Cindi Lauper and Bryan Adams. And for that you must be exterminated.
Though also Our Lady Peace and (the potentially insane) Propagandhi. For this I offer just life imprisonment for all Canadians.
Oi! Cindi Lauper isn't one of ours, and you should shoulder some of the blame for Bryan Adams.
But I think the fact that we have given the world the likes of The Band, Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, Daniel Lanois and Bruce Cockburn should at least make up for those previous travesties.
-------------------- In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte Posts: 1801 | From: The Forest City, Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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I give up, it's times like this that I really, really really which the english had finished the job they started on the plains of aberham (or however it's spelled)
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Read at your own risk. Posts: 667 | From: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Archie2K: Not that I imagine Britain would stand up much better... :/
You did give us the Beatles, which based upon the number of "albums" they've released in the past decade has to make up a good portion of Britain's GDP, non?
-------------------- In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte Posts: 1801 | From: The Forest City, Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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Harper is right. It's hard to deny that Quebec is "slightly" different from other Canadian provinces. Being a nationalist (supporter of national states) I tend to think that the Quebec people (I'll never be able to spell "quebecquas" correctly) have all the right to leave Canada as they please as long as the decision is being made on a free and democratic referendum. "Separatist" is not a bad word, it's just a state of mind; if democracy doesn't recognize the right of individiual territories to break away I doubt we can call it a democracy.
Posts: 246 | From: Toronto, ON / Kyiv, Ukraine | Registered: Jul 2005
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Well, Wacky Nephews & TwoGuyswithaHat, impressive! Most impressive.
Even a québecois would not have responded so well (though, it was not an exam... I would have had problems answering my own questions). But now you've destroyed my point entirely, I will have to rethink my life now, thank you!
Oh! and this:
quote:god, WHY?!?!?
I give up, it's times like this that I really, really really which the english had finished the job they started on the plains of aberham (or however it's spelled)
is incredebly childish... Waddya mean? They (the english) won at the plaine d'Abraham! That they should have killed every Canadian maybe?
Posts: 20 | From: Montréal | Registered: Jan 2005
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We also gave you Rush, The Guess Who, The Barenaked Ladies, April Wine, Bedouin Soundclash, and The Tragically Hip. Can we be forgiven yet?
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by MapleLeaf: We also gave you Rush, The Guess Who, The Barenaked Ladies, April Wine, Bedouin Soundclash, and The Tragically Hip. Can we be forgiven yet?
Not to mention Dan Ackroyd, Rick Moranis, Michael J. Fox, Phil Hartman, Jim Carrey and Mike Myers just to name some of my favourite funny guys.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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I give up, it's times like this that I really, really really which the english had finished the job they started on the plains of aberham (or however it's spelled)
is incredebly childish... Waddya mean? They (the english) won at the plaine d'Abraham! That they should have killed every Canadian maybe?
In every other French/etc Colony that the english won, they would convert the Colony folk to there religion and language (or deport them IIRC about the acadians). But because they were fighting a war at the time they took the french colony, the English didn't have the time or resources to make such a move. so they left them; and this is the result of their inaction.
I think it's time the french canadians get over it and accept the fact that they lost.
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Read at your own risk. Posts: 667 | From: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2006
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