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Author Topic: Bush screws women one more time
GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
When your oxytocin system works... it's like a "memory airbrush" - increased recall of the good times... decreased recall of the pains."
*twitch* *twitch*

quote:
The article speculates that "the science is still new, and more must be learned concerning the role of oxytocin in human bonding," but the inescapable conclusion is that keeping a woman abstinent until she walks down the aisle is the best way to keep her faithful after the honeymoon's over.
Just women? Do men not have oxytocin? Or does it not matter if a man bonds with his wife?

PS. Did he get permission to use all of those copyrighted characters in his lecture?

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Dieter Meyer
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
Just women? Do men not have oxytocin? Or does it not matter if a man bonds with his wife?

I haven't had time to read the articles in depth yet, but I remember reading something about this in the news paper some weeks ago which stated that women release five times as much of it as men.

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"Soyons désinvoltes; n'ayons l'air de rien" - Noir Désir

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Spamamander in a pear tree
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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YARRRGH! It burns! I don't wanna have sex like the Flintstones- they had seperate beds and they were made of rock.

I can't believe this person is for real. I especially can't believe that he's being placed in a position of authority for women's reproductive issues.

Actually... yes I can. That makes it 100 times worse.

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"There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning." -Albert Einstein

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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I was attempting to come up with something positive to say about the guy, and the only thing is the article is a bit harsh on this point:
quote:
The good doctor has also explained his use of ultrasounds in anti-abortion counseling by stating, “even Midas lets you look at your old muffler before they advise you to change it.”
What is wrong with using an ultrasound?

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And now for something completely different...

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Aimee Evilpixie
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
I was attempting to come up with something positive to say about the guy, and the only thing is the article is a bit harsh on this point:
quote:
The good doctor has also explained his use of ultrasounds in anti-abortion counseling by stating, “even Midas lets you look at your old muffler before they advise you to change it.”
What is wrong with using an ultrasound?
I think it's because he uses them to try and convince women not to get abortions? I mean, I haven't been in that situation, but if I were wanting to get an abortion and someone inisted I get an ultrasound first so I could see what I was about to destroy, I'd be pretty pissed at their presumption. I already have an idea of what a fetus looks like, dammit, and seeing a blip on an ultrasound isn't going to change my mind about having an abortion.

That's where I think they're comining from, anyway.

Aimee "Don't know enough about abortion to say what else an ultrasound would be used for" Evilpixie

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Cervus
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Of course, an ultrasound picture looks nothing like an actual cute cuddly fetus. I think the reaction of most people upon seeing one is "What exactly am I looking at?"

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
I was attempting to come up with something positive to say about the guy, and the only thing is the article is a bit harsh on this point:
quote:
The good doctor has also explained his use of ultrasounds in anti-abortion counseling by stating, “even Midas lets you look at your old muffler before they advise you to change it.”
What is wrong with using an ultrasound?
What's even more wrong is that:
a) I'm not a car
b) I don't have a muffler (no matter how much some people wish I did, probably you included [Wink] ), and I don't think a fetus is quite the same.
c) Having an abortion isn't the same as maintaining a car.

No matter how you feel about the use of ultrasounds, you have to admit, the metaphor is callous, ridiculious, and offensive.

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
Of course, an ultrasound picture looks nothing like an actual cute cuddly fetus.

Of all the descriptive terms for a fetus, cute and cuddly never came to mind. [Razz]

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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Ultrasounds, when I was pregnant, were not routinely ordered. Are they now? If so, why?

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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I'mNotDedalus
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A burden of visual proof? I thought these people were all about leaps of faith.

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I'mNotDedalus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
quote:
Originally posted by I'mNotDedalus:
So you would cease in your ability to form new bonding relationships with anyone else, aside from the fortunate one you blew your oxytocin load all over?

I don't know. It isn't my idea you are poking holes in.
Oh, I know you were only playing devil's advocate. I was just doin' a bit of shadowboxin'.

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The salty fragrance of L’Eau D’I’mNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles.

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HollowMan
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
I was attempting to come up with something positive to say about the guy, and the only thing is the article is a bit harsh on this point:
quote:
The good doctor has also explained his use of ultrasounds in anti-abortion counseling by stating, “even Midas lets you look at your old muffler before they advise you to change it.”
What is wrong with using an ultrasound?
The good doctor has a poor analogy. If I go to Midas, it's to get my crappy muffler taken off, and a bright shiny new one put on. I doubt women having abortions want a new fetus installed in them.

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Heisenberg may have slept here.

I got an idea... an idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about.

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
Of course, an ultrasound picture looks nothing like an actual cute cuddly fetus.

Of all the descriptive terms for a fetus, cute and cuddly never came to mind. [Razz]
Depends on the fetus. I'd say a normally developing 8 1/2-month fetus is probably pretty cute.

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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Mad Jay
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Ultrasounds, when I was pregnant, were not routinely ordered. Are they now? If so, why?

THe doctor can measure the size of the fetus, check for birth defects and estimate due date. The parents get to start on a photo album before the baby is born. [Razz] I think the routine ones are done at 12, 20, 28, 32 and 36 week(I could be wrong). More if the mother has history of miscarraiges/birth defects. My wife had ultrasounds at 6, 8, 12 and 20, and the next one is at 28.

Some places even give a 4D ultrasound, which is a video made from computer generated 3D images of the baby. Insurance doesn;t conver 4D ultrasound. You have to pay extra.

I think the fetus doesn't exactly look cuddly until the 3rd trimester. But, the heartbeat can be provide a powerful emotional pull to the pregnant woman. I think it's a descipable tactic.

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Nico Sasha
In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel.

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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But very few women are having abortions at 8 1/2 months.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Ana Ng
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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No one answered Doug.

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My great grandfather planted that tree!

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Ana Ng:
No one answered Doug.

Two people answered him directly, and several more pointed out further problems with the statement in and of itself. What else do you want?

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Well, apart from the fact that its use is emotional blackmail? After all, does what the fetus looks like matter to whether or not it has a right to life? I would hope not. But the idea is to create a bond to try to prevent the woman from aborting, even if abortion is otherwise the right decision for her.

And secondly, lots of insurance wouldn't cover such a thing.

And thirdly, the muffler analogy is stupid and demeaning.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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I'mNotDedalus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I think Ana was kidding, Ryda. See what happens when you leave Anne Carson in your sig line in lieu of my hilarity?

Or she wasn't kidding, and Anne Carson is doing you well. Either way, I want it all to be about me.

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The salty fragrance of L’Eau D’I’mNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles.

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Dieter Meyer:
quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
Just women? Do men not have oxytocin? Or does it not matter if a man bonds with his wife?

I haven't had time to read the articles in depth yet, but I remember reading something about this in the news paper some weeks ago which stated that women release five times as much of it as men.
Doin my fabo 10 min google research thing I found one article that claimed that it bonds with estrogen, but no cites, and no real information. Of course, this was a conservative, sex-in-marraige site, which made that claim in order to say that it makes women, and I quote, "want to be penetrated."


Yo-kay.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by I'mNotDedalus:
I think Ana was kidding, Ryda. See what happens when you leave Anne Carson in your sig line in lieu of my hilarity?

Or she wasn't kidding, and Anne Carson is doing you well. Either way, I want it all to be about me.

You never said I could have it. I'm taking this as permission either way. [Razz]

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I don't think anything is wrong with showing women the ultrasound pictures before they have an abortion. I don't think it is insulting to women to think that many women will change their minds about getting an abortion once they see the ultrasound. I know women that have. I an pro-choice completely, but since there are no take backs, I think that women should be totally totally sure they want to have an abortion before they get one. Not everyone knows that you can hear a fetal heartbeat on the early ultrasounds, for example. I think the pro-choice movement made a serious mistake when they started calling the fetus a clump of cells, that is what I think is insulting. It's not a clump of cells for much past the first 4 weeks. It is something that is more and more recognizable as human, and women deserve to see that so that they don't get an abortion, then later when they are pregnant and carrying to term going through one of those prenatal websites and looking at fetal development pictures and then they really regret what they did.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Okay, I did some quick searching of the literature on oxytocin.

1.) Yes, oxytocin can be released in response to hugs from a partner and it lowers the blood pressure in pre menapausal women.

2.) Oxytocin release increases levels of social trust.

3.) The only evidence I could find of either the "memory airbrush" or the habituation was in regard to pregnancy pain or with response to autonomic muscles. The whole thing about failed relationships was unsupported.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Rhiandmoi:
I think the pro-choice movement made a serious mistake when they started calling the fetus a clump of cells, that is what I think is insulting. It's not a clump of cells for much past the first 4 weeks. It is something that is more and more recognizable as human

About as recognizable as a chicken, sure. Point remains, it isn't yet much of anything, no matter what it looks like. And it's fine if you want to think of it as more than a clump of cells. To some women, that's exactly what it is, esp. if it is unwanted.
And if a woman is willing to go through the expense and pain of an abortion, they should have the emotional "let's find the hand" game played with them. Chances are their first decision is far more rational.

So, do you believe that everyone should be forced to watch footage of an abittoir prior to eating a dinner with meat. (Actually, I'd be more willing to have that done, as you are actually going to be killing a live, feeling, individual being.)

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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I'mNotDedalus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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TGal, why do you hate The Flintstones?

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Brad from Georgia
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Good Republicans know that the Flintstones can pervert our younger generation, draining their precious bodily fluids.

I mean, look at their end-theme song! It says right there "We'll have a gay old time!"

How long will it be before we hear "Yer lookin' pretty good to me dere, Barn!"

"Aw, Fred! Hyuh-hyuh-hyuh-hyuh!"

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"No hard feelin's and HOPpy New Year!"--Walt Kelly
Hear what you're missing: ARTC podcasts! http://artcpodcast.org/

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Canuckistan
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And then the porcupine dildo looks into the camera and says, "Oh no, not again!"

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Simply Madeline
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:
And then the porcupine dildo looks into the camera and says, "Oh no, not again!"

Well that had to be one of the most interesting things I'v seen on the active topics page.
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Rhiandmoi
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhiandmoi:
I think the pro-choice movement made a serious mistake when they started calling the fetus a clump of cells, that is what I think is insulting. It's not a clump of cells for much past the first 4 weeks. It is something that is more and more recognizable as human

About as recognizable as a chicken, sure. Point remains, it isn't yet much of anything, no matter what it looks like. And it's fine if you want to think of it as more than a clump of cells. To some women, that's exactly what it is, esp. if it is unwanted.
And if a woman is willing to go through the expense and pain of an abortion, they should have the emotional "let's find the hand" game played with them. Chances are their first decision is far more rational.

So, do you believe that everyone should be forced to watch footage of an abittoir prior to eating a dinner with meat. (Actually, I'd be more willing to have that done, as you are actually going to be killing a live, feeling, individual being.)

I don't think everyone should have to watch abattoir footage right before dinner, just like I don't think women should have to watch abortion footage before they get one. But I do think that everyone that eats beef should know it used to be a cow, just like I think women that have an abortion should fully understand what they are doing. I don't want someone to regret their decision when they get more information later. A friend of mine had missed 2 periods and she was still hesitant to take a pregnancy test, even though she was pretty sure that she would get an abortion if she was pregnant. That was before she found out that a 9 week fetus has fingers and toes. Luckily she was not pregnant and she got a better birth control method. But the point is, anectodotally, that she was a fairly well educated woman, and she didn't know anything about fetal development rates. She thought it was just a clump of tissue. If she had an abortion, and then watched the show on fetal development later she would have felt like she killed a person, and she would have regretted it. I don't think seeing the ultrasound photos needs to be emotional blackmail. I don't think there needs to be emotional head games on either side of the issue. What is wrong with giving an information on fetal development along with the procedure info?

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Starla
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I wondered what was wrong with ultrasounds too, and I followedthis link.
quote:
Dr. Diana Kroi, the ob-gyn who authored "Take Control of Your Period," explained that ultrasounds need a trained physician to look for problems like ectopic pregnancies and other dangerous indications that a woman's health is imperiled.

If a woman who's had an ultrasound mistakenly thinks she's had actual prenatal care, she may not go elsewhere for real care. Anti-choicers are banking on the ultrasound's appeal as a pre-born snapshot machine, though it's an actual diagnostic tool, or as the Mayo Clinic puts it, "[Ultrasound] isn't meant primarily to provide parental thrills or souvenir snapshots," and it's irresponsible to treat it as if it were.

The argument makes a lot of sense to me.

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This used to be the life, but I don't need another one.
MyBandwagon

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Rhiandmoi
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I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that a pre-procedure ultrasound to confirm the pregnacy, the gestational age, and location of the fetus was part of getting an abortion. It is seeing these ultrasound images that I am talking about.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Spamamander in a pear tree
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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I was never given a U/s to determine fetal age or anything similar- then again, it was, erm, almost 20 years ago that I had my procedure. From what I understand, however, it is NOT a normal thing to do, even in this day and age, for first-trimester abortions which would be by and large the most common time frame. Using the woman's menstrual history and a manual exam of the uterus to determine its size is generally the most accurate dating method that early in the pregnancy. There is no real diagnostic value in such an ultrasound (which may additionally be rather uncomfortable, as early on they would need to use a vaginal probe to get the best result) unless there is reason to suspect an ectopic pregnancy.

I was given the -option- of having a U/s if I wanted. I didn't see any women take them up on the offer while I was there- we were given detailed information and diagrams of what the surgical abortion procedure entailed and what the fetus looked like in devlopment along with it its relative size.

What it comes down to is people who want the mandatory ultrasounds are trying to bank on some type of attachment if the heartbeat is seen, which is what some of the "crisis pregnancy" clinics do. They offer the woman an ultrasound and point at the tiny little speck pulse that can sometimes be seen and berate the woman on how horrible it would be to destroy a baby. It would be forcing an un-necessary procedure on women under the idea that they will be more "informed". I would have no issue with it being offered should a woman desire to have it, but making it mandatory is another piece in the propaganda machine.

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"There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning." -Albert Einstein

Posts: 1058 | From: Yakima, WA | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Jay:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Ultrasounds, when I was pregnant, were not routinely ordered. Are they now? If so, why?

THe doctor can measure the size of the fetus, check for birth defects and estimate due date. The parents get to start on a photo album before the baby is born. [Razz] I think the routine ones are done at 12, 20, 28, 32 and 36 week(I could be wrong). More if the mother has history of miscarraiges/birth defects. My wife had ultrasounds at 6, 8, 12 and 20, and the next one is at 28.

That's a lot of ultrasounds. It isn't a procedure without risks, and, with 5, the risk of interuterine growth restriction is increased.

quote:
I think the fetus doesn't exactly look cuddly until the 3rd trimester. But, the heartbeat can be provide a powerful emotional pull to the pregnant woman. I think it's a descipable tactic.
I heard my daughter's heartbeat at the first or second prenatal visit. It *was* a powerful emotional pull, indeed.

Oh, and because I needed to deliver as early as was safe for my daughter, I had an amniocentesis done when I was 34 weeks along. They got a great shot of her round face and her long hair. It was a little creepy, to be honest.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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moonfall86
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I thought oxytocin was released during childbirth. Is that another chemical, or am I thinking of the right one?

I'm not doctor, but this seems like a faulty claim. Since when do you have a limited supply of a chemical like oxytocin? Shouldn't a healthy body be able to produce as much as it needs?

Posts: 885 | From: Florida | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
wanderwoman
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhiandmoi:
I don't think anything is wrong with showing women the ultrasound pictures before they have an abortion. I know women that have. I an pro-choice completely, but since there are no take backs, I think that women should be totally totally sure they want to have an abortion before they get one.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I think it should be up to the woman involved whether or not she wants to see the ultrasound.

Also, I think women should be totally sure they want to have a baby before they get one. It works both ways.

Edited for typo

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"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
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Posts: 851 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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