quote: A Middle Tennessee art student is crying censorship, but a local museum director said he pulled a piece of artwork because it desecrated the American flag.
-------------------- A little glitter can turn your whole day around.--Junie B. Jones
quote:The museum said they don't shy away from controversy but just can't support exhibits that could offend the majority of its members.
... because controversy is best reserved for people in the minority.
I also like the statement:
quote: They said they might consider showing some of Gentry's work in the future, but said if they did they would watch his every move.
Clearly a subversive type who needs watching... - this is what the Patriot Act is for obviously.
Dropbear
-------------------- " The villagers had said justice had been done, and she'd lost patience and told them to go home, then, and pray to whatever gods they believed in that it was never done to them. -- (Terry Pratchett) Posts: 823 | From: Hobart, Tasmania | Registered: Jun 2005
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Mmm, wouldn't it be nice if there weren't any subversives in art, and that art would never be controversial. And we'd never ever have to think for ourselves! What a great world that would be, we could just stare at pretty pictures of Ken Done all day and not have to think about the greater world.
Posts: 12 | From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
So the flag-desecration issue is more important than the obesity issue. So it follows, that fat is patriotic? Hot dogs, apple pie, it all makes sense now!
-------------------- I believe I'm growing skeptical of cynicism. MyspaceNWNBoard Posts: 917 | From: Nashville TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Honeybunch: Mmm, wouldn't it be nice if there weren't any subversives in art, and that art would never be controversial. And we'd never ever have to think for ourselves! What a great world that would be, we could just stare at pretty pictures of Ken Done all day and not have to think about the greater world.
Honeybunch, if I spent more than 32 seconds looking at Ken Done pictures I'd not have to worry about thinking at all as my brain would have oozed out of my ears like poorly set red jelly (but more meaty).
Dropbear
-------------------- " The villagers had said justice had been done, and she'd lost patience and told them to go home, then, and pray to whatever gods they believed in that it was never done to them. -- (Terry Pratchett) Posts: 823 | From: Hobart, Tasmania | Registered: Jun 2005
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The way I feel about it public museums or public instiutions should not be acting as censors in any way. So what if most of the community doesn't like it? The director could have used this as an opportunity to talk about censorship and educate the community on how supporting art is important whether or not it's comfortable to see.He took the easy way out and caved to the majority opinion. Sad.
-------------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning- Einstein Posts: 290 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Mar 2005
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Um... eww. I didn't know who Ken Done was and I google searched. I think I need insulin now. And ibuprofin. I vote we string him up by his toes alongside Thomas Kinkaide.
Pretty soon art museums are going to be havens for velvet Jesus portraits and pictures of pretty flowers (as long as they aren't painted by someone like Georgia o'Keefe). Truly sad.
-------------------- "There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning." -Albert Einstein Posts: 1058 | From: Yakima, WA | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Filet o' Spamamander: Um... eww. I didn't know who Ken Done was and I google searched. I think I need insulin now. And ibuprofin.
Ditto... I'd never heard of him either, so I googled... and yuck.
I'm no artist or art expert, but I do come from a family of artists. I have only one qualification when I judge art: it has to be better than I could do. When I say "better", that can either be the quality of the rendering, or the creativity of the message it conveys. I don't see any of either in Ken Done's work.
His web site has a lot of his galleries. If you go to his permanent gallery, his voice-overs have that snobby rich air that you expect from artists on TV. It's so corny.
Compared to Done, a deep-fried flag is a masterpiece.
-------------------- I believe I'm growing skeptical of cynicism. MyspaceNWNBoard Posts: 917 | From: Nashville TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
He couldn't have used another representation of America. A cloth cut out to the shape of the US. The flag can be very personal to some and frying it, spreading poo, lighting it on fire will be offensive to many.
Flag Etiquette from Here STANDARDS of RESPECT The Flag Code, which formalizes and unifies the traditional ways in which we give respect to the flag, also contains specific instructions on how the flag is not to be used. They are:
The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal. The flag should not be used as a drapery, or for covering a speakers desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top. The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations. The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind. The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything. When the flag is lowered, no part of it should touch the ground or any other object; it should be received by waiting hands and arms. To store the flag it should be folded neatly and ceremoniously.
The flag should be cleaned and mended when necessary.
When a flag is so worn it is no longer fit to serve as a symbol of our country, it should be destroyed by burning in a dignified manner.
What's wrong with Thomas Kinkade?
Posts: 30 | From: Thornton, CO | Registered: Oct 2005
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:The flag can be very personal to some and frying it, spreading poo, lighting it on fire will be offensive to many.
And?
People have the right to be offensive. They have the right to be confronted about it, too.
But they shouldn't stop expressing themselves just because someone, somewhere might find it offensive.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by DevilBunny: Am I the only person who thinks that art should be less about controversial 'messages' and more about beauty?
Uhh, yeah!
I get what you are saying, but I'm a sucker for art with a message. As long as it has some degree of aesthetic merit.
About 8 blocks from our house (denver) is the Santa Fe Art District, and we love first fridays (free booze and tidbits, people watching, and art, yay).
My favorite exhibit last time was by a local female artist who had, on the floor of a gallary, all of these chicken/babydoll hybrids (baby head, chicken body), bronzed, cavorting in various poses. They were awesome and open and intriguing and strong and pretty in their own wierd way. I really, really wanted a few.
Ryda "Cause who dosen't need a baby-faced chicken bronze around the house" Wong.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:But, because the area is home to tens of thousands of military personnel who fight for the flag everyday, he ignited a controversy. That was the reason given by the museum director of the Customs House Museum for pulling the art hours after it went up.
No, military personnel do not fight for the flag. They fight for the people, the government, the country's ideals, and a paycheck. The flag is just a symbol. People may legitemately fight for what it symbolizes, but if they consider themselves to be fighting for IT they're completely missing the point.
Nonny
-------------------- When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 10141 | From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2000
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I think the museum probably has the right to display what they want. I don't see a problem with this display. It is art, and art should not be designed to fit into everyone's standards.
I do think that US flag 'art' along with 'art' which desecrates relgious symbols tends to strike me as being an unimaginitive attempt at drawing attention to yourself and your 'art'. You know people are going to react the same way they did when 1000 people before you did the same thing.
Beach...now a deep fried video game, that would be imaginitive...Life!
quote:Originally posted by BeachLife: I do think that US flag 'art' along with 'art' which desecrates relgious symbols tends to strike me as being an unimaginitive attempt at drawing attention to yourself and your 'art'. You know people are going to react the same way they did when 1000 people before you did the same thing.
I'm in complete agreement here.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:The flag can be very personal to some and frying it, spreading poo, lighting it on fire will be offensive to many.
And?
People have the right to be offensive. They have the right to be confronted about it, too.
But they shouldn't stop expressing themselves just because someone, somewhere might find it offensive.
Good point.
I equate it to spitting on the face of those that have served our country.
Posts: 30 | From: Thornton, CO | Registered: Oct 2005
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Why? He wasn't deep-frying veterans.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by DevilBunny: Am I the only person who thinks that art should be less about controversial 'messages' and more about beauty?
I don't think art needs to have a controversial message, but I do like it to make me feel something. That something might be awe of its beauty, or it might be anger at a social issue, or it might be empathy for the sadness or loneliness expressed. If I just want a pretty picture to soothe my eyeballs, photos of kitties in flower pots will do just fine.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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I've never understood this protectiveness of a patterned bit of fabric. It's fabric for goodness sake! Using it as a cushion doesn't mean you disrespect the country it represents. In Britain many people decorate their homes with our various flags - furnishings, towels, clothing, wrapping paper etc - out of repect, not disrespect (we burn flags to show disapproval and I hope this act of protest isn't banned).
I guess it's the way you're indoctrinated as you grow up. When you need to dispose of a worn out flag, do you have to hold a funeral for it?
posted
I think spitting in the face of veterans is better manifested in the collective turning of our backs on them once they get home. One in three homeless men is a veteran; I'm sure their primary concern is not with art projects that deep-fry the flag.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I do think that US flag 'art' along with 'art' which desecrates relgious symbols tends to strike me as being an unimaginitive attempt at drawing attention to yourself and your 'art'. You know people are going to react the same way they did when 1000 people before you did the same thing.
In general I'd agree, in fact I was coming here to say something very similar, but it does appear he had an overall point about the way we eat/exercise vs. just "look! look! I desecrated a flag!".. The flag thing, to me, was just to add shock value to the whole thing (which appears to have worked). That said I only know what I read in the article, could be wrong.
quote:I equate it to spitting on the face of those that have served our country.
Maybe its cause I'm not in the military, I don't know, but I've never understood this reaction to desecration of the flag. To me at best it makes you a jerk, I've never had an over the top massive reaction to seeing it, but again, I'm just a civilian.. That said I cannot think of any symbol/thing/etc that isn't alive that I would particularly care if it were burned beyond thinking "man.. What a jerk"..
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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Oh, I can. The Mona Lisa, Notre Dame, the Beowulf ms.--there are all sorts of things that I'd be distressed to see burn. But not something easily replaceable like a flag.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I do think that US flag 'art' along with 'art' which desecrates relgious symbols tends to strike me as being an unimaginitive attempt at drawing attention to yourself and your 'art'. You know people are going to react the same way they did when 1000 people before you did the same thing.
In general I'd agree, in fact I was coming here to say something very similar, but it does appear he had an overall point about the way we eat/exercise vs. just "look! look! I desecrated a flag!".. The flag thing, to me, was just to add shock value to the whole thing (which appears to have worked). That said I only know what I read in the article, could be wrong...
I agree, I see that the artist was attempting to make a point, and maybe he was just being short sighted and didn't do enough research to understand how his use of the flag would result in attention. If that's the case, then it is unfortunate for him, that many people will never see the point he was trying to make.
quote:Originally posted by Non-Aquatic Mouse: From the article:
quote:But, because the area is home to tens of thousands of military personnel who fight for the flag everyday, he ignited a controversy. That was the reason given by the museum director of the Customs House Museum for pulling the art hours after it went up.
No, military personnel do not fight for the flag. They fight for the people, the government, the country's ideals, and a paycheck. The flag is just a symbol. People may legitemately fight for what it symbolizes, but if they consider themselves to be fighting for IT they're completely missing the point.
Nonny
Interesting the one thing that members of the military swear to defend is the Consitution
quote:I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
Nothing about the flag in here. And since when did the Flag become the exclusive property and symbol of members of the military? I thought it represented the Republic, and, by extension, all of us.
Now if they were dipping the Constitution in batter and frying it, that would be a desecration.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:The flag can be very personal to some and frying it, spreading poo, lighting it on fire will be offensive to many.
And?
People have the right to be offensive. They have the right to be confronted about it, too.
But they shouldn't stop expressing themselves just because someone, somewhere might find it offensive.
Good point.
I equate it to spitting on the face of those that have served our country.
I equate flag worship with hollow patriotism, boardering on nationalism, working on fascism. Those who cry most loudly for the protection of the flag are those who hate the freedoms and liberties of America the most.
It's delightfully ironic.
Should a flag-burning amendment ever pass, I would consider it the duty of every American to burn flags 24 hours a day 7 days a week until it was repealed.
Blessings of Liberty for ourselves and our Posterity, anyone?
I love the Constitution. I don't really give a damn about the flag. I'd go so far as to say I hate the flag. It's this huge, ugly, empty icon which becomes a focus of so-called patriots who can't articulate their patriotism any better than the idea that we're better than everyone else. Obsession on the flag distracts us from the ideals on which this nation was founded. The flag is the manifestation of jingoism, realpolitik, neo-Imperialism, xeonphobia, cultural ignorance, and pretty much all the unpleasant things about this nation. People worship this flag because valuing our nation requires too much intellectual effort.
I love this country, so I hate the flag.
(I think this is a complete 180 on my opinion on the subject when I last posted on this issue some years ago.)
-------------------- Thinking about New England / missing old Japan Posts: 2603 | From: Virginia | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Now if they were dipping the Constitution in batter and frying it, that would be a desecration.
I dunno.. With whats been going on with the constitution lately I think dipping in in batter and frying it may be an upgrade..
quote:Oh, I can. The Mona Lisa, Notre Dame, the Beowulf ms.--there are all sorts of things that I'd be distressed to see burn. But not something easily replaceable like a flag.
I didn't say you couldn't distress me, just that it wouldn't offend me, perse. However that is a bad example because those are one of a kinds (assuming you mean the originals). If you were burning a copy of the Mona Lisa I could care less.. Much like I'd be upset if somebody was burning some really really old and historic flag, something irreplacable, but just burning any old drugstore flag? Just dosn't bother me.
I also dis-equate it (is that a word? Call webster it is now) from book burning because the idea there is to eliminate all of some book, nobody is trying to eliminate all of the flags.
quote:I agree, I see that the artist was attempting to make a point, and maybe he was just being short sighted and didn't do enough research to understand how his use of the flag would result in attention. If that's the case, then it is unfortunate for him, that many people will never see the point he was trying to make.
Well, I'm sure he knew it would result in attention, I think the point was to be something of a "shock" piece, I just think that the overall point of his art in this case was not "NFBSK America!" as many others who desecrate the flag in some way are.
But I guess as long as I can go to the beach on the fourth of July and see a flag bikini wedged up some womans ass I have a hard time getting behind the "desecrating the flag is evil!" people.. (Yes, I know there is some differentiation between what its printed on, all that, but I think thats a cop out, if that flag he fried only had 47 stars on it I think people would be just as upset and start saying it "represents" the flag..)
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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I'm not actually shocked or offended by a flag burning. I'm starting to think that it has perhaps become so common that people are getting desensitized to it to some degree. Sure, we still have the vocal subset of people who get all bent out of shape but I think the whole thing has lost it's shock value for a lot of people.
When I see or hear about a flag burning these days, I just figure it's some attention-seeking jerk out for some time in the spotlight by deliberately doing something they know will offend some people. Frankly, I suspect a lot of flag-burners are more about "look at me" than "look at my cause". As a result, I don't really pay any attention to whatever it is they're trying to advance anymore. I generally just try to ignore them.
I'll also say I don't "worship" the flag. I like the flag. I think it looks beautiful (hardly ugly). I think it serves as a symbol of our country. It's not some relic that's worthy of being treated like some holy icon either. At the same time, I don't think it should be mistreated any more than any other object should be mistreated.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MaxKaladin: I'm not actually shocked or offended by a flag burning. I'm starting to think that it has perhaps become so common that people are getting desensitized to it to some degree.
Do Americans really burn the flag that often? It seems like every time I hear or see footage of the American flag being burnt, it's people in another country doing it to protest U.S. policies/actions.
Posts: 64 | From: Fairbanks, AK | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by serarose: The way I feel about it public museums or public instiutions should not be acting as censors in any way.
This is impossible. Every time a museum makes a decision on what it will buy and/or exhibit, it is, in some way, censoring the works of art not chosen. The only difference here is that the museum made the mistake of changing its mind as to what to not exhibit. If they hadn't taken it in the first place, the censorship would never have been noticed, except maybe by the artist
This is why the government should not be in the art museum business.
Best thing would be to give the art museum away to a private self-perpetuating board. It sure has worked out for New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Initial board members should be chosen primarily on grounds of being art lovers with experience in running large private businesses or institutions without them running into financial problems.
-------------------- "Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?" Julius Lester Posts: 5780 | From: Suburban Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg: Initial board members should be chosen primarily on grounds of being art lovers with experience in running large private businesses or institutions without them running into financial problems.
And we all know how well that worked out for the Barnes Foundation.
-------------------- Is here no telephone? Posts: 323 | From: Brooklyn, NY | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by DevilBunny: Am I the only person who thinks that art should be less about controversial 'messages' and more about beauty?
I don't see why it can't be both, but hey, I'm a bit of an idealist.
(And a bit of a surrealist. Flags don't fry well. Niether does lettuce.)
-------------------- "My sandwich choice is uncertain, until I actually order. It's like Schrodinger's Sandwich." "Is plutonium involved in this sandwich in any way?" "Maybe." Posts: 496 | From: Whitby, ON, Canada | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:I dunno.. With whats been going on with the constitution lately I think dipping in in batter and frying it may be an upgrade..
Yeah...it might make some recent policies easier to (wait for it) SWALLOW!
Seriously, though. It's an ugly piece of art. It's kinda meaningful...but it seems sort of lazy. I like to think that art takes effort. There is lots of offensive art that takes a bit more creativity than this. Like the Piss Christ. I mean, who would have ever thought to do something like that. Frying a flag? Well, it's not nearly as cool.
I wouldn't want that in my museum. But not 'cause it's offensive. Just 'cause I think it sucks.
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Avu: Do Americans really burn the flag that often? It seems like every time I hear or see footage of the American flag being burnt, it's people in another country doing it to protest U.S. policies/actions.
Not really, but the subject comes up more often than I think it should. Besides, we do see the footage from abroad of people burning our flag. Sometimes it seems frequent enough that it's routine. I've occasionally wondered if I could make my fortune providing 'hate America' kits to people in foriegn countries. Each kit would contain a flag, a container of lighter fluid and a book of matches.
Edit: Clarified wording
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
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