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Author Topic: Giuliani Takes Step Toward '08 Bid
Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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It depends. Generally I am in favor of legalized abortion, and I have no moral objections to abortions in approximately the first half of pregnancy, but I don't call myself pro-choice because I disagree with much of the pro-choice philosophy. I do think that birth does not in any way change the status of a fetus/baby from "not a person, and without any rights" to "person with rights". Thus, in my opinion, a late-term abortion of a healthy fetus is morally equivalent to killing a child.

Edit: I know that elective late-term abortions of healthy fetuses are practically non-existent and often already illegal, so this isn't a big practical issue for me. I just think that the "it's her body" line of reasoning common in the pro-choice movement can be extended to justifying this sort of abortion, which is one of the reasons I do not agree with it.

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Fools! You've over-estimated me!

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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That's ok, e_e, but bear in mind there's no right to have your say without others following up. You don't have to take part in a debate if you don't want to, but personally, if I found myself unable and unwilling to respond to the implications of my political stance, I'd at least do some research, and perhaps reconsider it.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Evil_eyes
We Three Blings


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I understand that, I was stating that I did mean to cause a abortion debate since that was not what I set out to do.

And how am I avoiding answering questions as to my political stance, I thought I answered the questions. I am not repeating myself. I dont think I made it that hard to understand what I was getting at.

E_E

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"Taking all the pain I give you
Loving blindly in return
And I need you more than ever"
WWW.Myspace.com/E_E2000

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Avril
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Flowy Chloe:
Well, let's ask. So, pro-life snopesters, do you consider a pregnant woman's death from sepsis as the result of an illegal abortion to be "poetic justice"? Like that of Becky Bell, for instance, or Rosie Jimenez? (google them if you don't know who they are). Do you call them "stupid criminals" and laugh about them?

No. I consider a pregnant woman's death from sepsis as the result of an illegal abortion to be a tragedy, a part of multiple tragedies which culminated to form one big, ugly one.

For what it's worth, my true social conservatism makes it increasingly difficult to vote for Republican candidates. But I think this is about all I will have to contribute to this thread.

Avril

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There is no failure unless one stops. --Ray Bradbury

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:

More to the point, what if, as seems possible, the 2008 Presidential Election is between Senator Hillary Clinton and Dr Condoleezza Rice? Would you bite the bullet and vote for the Republican then, or would your deeply-held principles preclude you from voting at all?

Frankly I think the only way a woman will be President in my lifetime is if the choices do come down to two women running. I think the attitude of "anyone but a woman" is far more widespread than we might like to believe. I would love to be proved wrong on this incidentally but in the meantime I won't hold my breath!
I think you are right, Christie, but you know, I don't understand why America should be so backwards in this. Women have been rulers since Nefertiti (or Nefereri or however it's spelled) and Cleopatra and Queen E. the first and according to history have done as good a job if not better, certainly not worse, then most men.

England had a female prime minister, as did India, and a South American country elected a woman as it's head this year (can't remember which) so why on EARTH is America so horsey about this?

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by redsnapperdragonfly:
Women have been rulers since Nefertiti (or Nefereri or however it's spelled) and Cleopatra..

Yea, but those societies collapsed... [fish]

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And now for something completely different...

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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But not under the gals...

*sticks tongue out at Doug*

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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I'mNotDedalus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Publius:
Look, I supported McCain in 2000 too (everyone was young and stupid once), but we've had six years since then to figure out what he actually believes. It turns out it's not pretty, and it's not the ideology of a liberal Republican "maverick."

I agree that "liberal Republican 'maverick'" is hardly an apt title. McCain is a bit fishy. From abortion, to teaching intelligent design in schools, to his hiring of Terry Nelson, many points push him further away from even the "Goldwater Republican" label he so dearly wants.

It's difficult to even label him as a Neoconservative, though. McCain favors the deployment of more troops into Iraq, thus distancing himself from recent Neocon Iraq apologists. Itís a McCain who's even more conservative than the ultra-conservatives! Naturally, this is just one point, but an important one.

ETA: The Associated Press is also reporting that "Lott is supported in his comeback bid [to return to the Senate's Republican leadership] by Arizona Sen. John McCain." Hardly a bridge for the center.

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The salty fragrance of LíEau IímNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles.

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Ramblin' Dave, quietly making noise
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by HenryChicane:

Wow, I wasn't even thinking about Dr. Rice. She might be the one who could help me over my bigotry on this issue. I think I could vote for her.

Yeah, I know we shouldn't [offensive remark deleted - sorry! -dave], but I can't let this one by without comment. Does anybody else find it telling that Henry here says he could never, ever support a woman for president...but he might make an exception for one whose most notable accomplishment was helping to set the stage for a completely unnecessary war that killed tens of thousands of people?

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Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you
Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused
But just now it's enough to be walking with you
Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins

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Archie2K
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
... Thatcher in the UK ...

1) [Big Grin]
2) As strong a counter example anyone can need that a woman can be a leader and can have more balls than the men.

With all that said, I don't believe that Hillary Clinton will run due to the baggage that she and the name carries. Her support in the polls is just name recognition. Dr. Rich won't be nominated because she's too progressive though I would love to see her or Colin Powell as the Republican nominee. Perhaps their cabinet positions have made them seem more concilliatory. Most of the people I speak to think McCain will have a lock on the nomination if he runs.

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HenryChicane
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave, quietly making noise:
quote:
Originally posted by HenryChicane:

Wow, I wasn't even thinking about Dr. Rice. She might be the one who could help me over my bigotry on this issue. I think I could vote for her.

Yeah, I know we shouldn't feed the trolls, but I can't let this one by without comment. Does anybody else find it telling that Henry here says he could never, ever support a woman for president...but he might make an exception for one whose most notable accomplishment was helping to set the stage for a completely unnecessary war that killed tens of thousands of people?
Do you guys really think I was trolling? I hope not.

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http://www.myspace.com/ironhillpark

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Ramblin' Dave, quietly making noise
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Not necessarily (and please note that I removed the T-word from my original post when I learned we weren't supposed to use it). It's just that your argument - "I don't want a woman to be president and I don't care who knows it and I'll even say I'm a bigot" - is a bit suspicious.

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Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you
Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused
But just now it's enough to be walking with you
Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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No. If you were trolling you would have talked about flirting your way to the front of lines. [Roll Eyes]

ETA: But since I am one of those evil creatures, a liberal woman, you probably don't care what I think.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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I'mNotDedalus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave, quietly making noise:
Does anybody else find it telling that Henry here says he could never, ever support a woman for president...but he might make an exception for one whose most notable accomplishment was helping to set the stage for a completely unnecessary war that killed tens of thousands of people?

And, according to Bob Woodward, is also culpable for the negligent homicide of the victims of 9/11.

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The salty fragrance of LíEau IímNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles.

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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave, quietly making noise:
It's just that your argument - "I don't want a woman to be president and I don't care who knows it and I'll even say I'm a bigot" - is a bit suspicious.

I find it to be a bit sad, really.

HenryChicane, I hope you were serious when you said you would re-evaluate said prejudice. Holding such views is, IMO, just sad.

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Evil_eyes
We Three Blings


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I see it as he was expressing his views/opinion and that he didn't care what anyone else thought.

T-Girl, you are so correct no one cares what a liberal would think, let alone a liberal woman. [Smile]


E* the last part of my post does not expresss my views/opinions on anything much less then a liberated woman. Im just being a smartass is all.*E

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"Taking all the pain I give you
Loving blindly in return
And I need you more than ever"
WWW.Myspace.com/E_E2000

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Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by I'mNotDedalus:
ETA: The Associated Press is also reporting that "Lott is supported in his comeback bid [to return to the Senate's Republican leadership] by Arizona Sen. John McCain." Hardly a bridge for the center.

Well, Lott came back. Gaahhh!

ETA: Bad, bad T-Girl! [lol] I'm so proud to know you. I'd vote for you any time. Oh, wait. I'm one of those liberal females. Damn! Never mind. [Roll Eyes]

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"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~IímNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent DíOnofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by Flowy Chloe:
Well, let's ask. So, pro-life snopesters, do you consider a pregnant woman's death from sepsis as the result of an illegal abortion to be "poetic justice"? Like that of Becky Bell, for instance, or Rosie Jimenez? (google them if you don't know who they are). Do you call them "stupid criminals" and laugh about them?

Personally, I consider a pregnant women's death from sepsis as the result of an illegal abortion a crying shame and a horrible waste--pretty much the same way as I feel about a fetus's death from a legal one.

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Nonny, you made me think about something. My gut reaction to what you said just there is that in my mind, equating the relative worth of the two deaths I find troubling. There is no way, in my mind, that a 12 week old embryo is equivalent to a fully grown woman with connections to a variety of people.

A great aunt of mine died, in the 1920s from a sepsis resulting from a self-induced abortion. It took her days to die, according to the death certificate. The effect on her family was profound-- her youngest child was given to relatives to raise as the father could not cope with a 3 year old while trying to feed the family (and there was no older girl to take up the slack).

I am wondering if there would be fewer abortions if women were truly equal in society? Or rather perhaps it would be that many more of us could take on board the idea that some people truly value the life of a fetus without it seeming insulting to our very humanity.

I am pulling in from many things today. I watched a Nova last night about how in much of the world, girl children are viewed as less-than-- a liability. SOmething undesirable. It is less pronounced in our society, but I think it is still out there. A woman is worth less than a man; on this very forum there was someone proclaiming that he was not ready for a woman to be president (and I totally heart all the snopesters, male and female, who found this unfathomable).

But to be told, in view of this, that a fetus is somehow more important than the life you have created for yourself, than the hole it leaves is just as profound as that of a woman who dies of sepsis, is just more icing on the crap cake.

I am using Nonny's remarks as an example, because I know that her concern is genuine and I know that she is pro-contraception and pro-women's rights and that her response is the result of an unusually big heart.

But if I can read all that into a post by someone as kind and gentle and good as Nonny, how am I possibly going to seperate that out from someone who, in addition to being opposed to abortion is opposed to contraception, or thinks that women should stay in the home, or that a woman should think about how much she is ruining someone's career if she dares complain about abuse, or that a woman should not be president because of the biological fact that she is a woman-- something she cannot help anymore than the fetus could help being conceived.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
Nonny, you made me think about something. My gut reaction to what you said just there is that in my mind, equating the relative worth of the two deaths I find troubling. There is no way, in my mind, that a 12 week old embryo is equivalent to a fully grown woman with connections to a variety of people.

While I very much get what you're saying here, there's something in it I find troubling, which is the idea that the value of a life should be measured in terms of how many other people she has connections with. While I would certainly feel deeply for the family and friends of a wife, daugher, sister, mother and best buddy who died from an illegal abortion, I would not consider her life to be of higher value than that of a homeless, kinless, friendless old man who froze to death under a bridge one winter's night.

I don't believe for a moment that you meant to imply such a thing...but your phrasing still does suggest that implication.

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Non-Aquatic Mouse:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
Nonny, you made me think about something. My gut reaction to what you said just there is that in my mind, equating the relative worth of the two deaths I find troubling. There is no way, in my mind, that a 12 week old embryo is equivalent to a fully grown woman with connections to a variety of people.

While I very much get what you're saying here, there's something in it I find troubling, which is the idea that the value of a life should be measured in terms of how many other people she has connections with. While I would certainly feel deeply for the family and friends of a wife, daugher, sister, mother and best buddy who died from an illegal abortion, I would not consider her life to be of higher value than that of a homeless, kinless, friendless old man who froze to death under a bridge one winter's night.

I don't believe for a moment that you meant to imply such a thing...but your phrasing still does suggest that implication.

Nonny

How are either of these two people even remotely the equivalent of an unborn fetus?

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Non-Aquatic Mouse:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
Nonny, you made me think about something. My gut reaction to what you said just there is that in my mind, equating the relative worth of the two deaths I find troubling. There is no way, in my mind, that a 12 week old embryo is equivalent to a fully grown woman with connections to a variety of people.

While I very much get what you're saying here, there's something in it I find troubling, which is the idea that the value of a life should be measured in terms of how many other people she has connections with. While I would certainly feel deeply for the family and friends of a wife, daugher, sister, mother and best buddy who died from an illegal abortion, I would not consider her life to be of higher value than that of a homeless, kinless, friendless old man who froze to death under a bridge one winter's night.

I don't believe for a moment that you meant to imply such a thing...but your phrasing still does suggest that implication.

Nonny

No of course not. I find it tragic that people are in this situation. But the fact remains that homeless or not, they do impact people's lives.

I don't know how to phrase this without sounding like I value one type of person above another. The death of a child is just as tragic to me as the death of his/her mother.

I guess the thing, philosophically is that once you are born you have interacted with someone other than the person who carried you.

To It's a question of esoteric connection. I do, for example, worry, when I don't see the "regular" homeless folks or the grumpy woman from down the street.

I am not sure how to put this, really. The actual versus potential? The difference between a house under construction and an old family home?

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Only at snopes would a thread about Rudy Guliani evolve into an abortion thread [Cool] .

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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There's where we differ. To me, a fetus is actual and a born child is potential, to fairly close to the same degree. The difference is one of location, not of essence.

Even a teenager is still "under construction".

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
I am not sure how to put this, really. The actual versus potential? The difference between a house under construction and an old family home?

Actually, to pro-lifers, the unborn child's death is worse. For one, the woman at least had a chance to live some of her "natural" life. The unborn child had no such chance. Second, the child had no say or decision in the matter while the woman died from her own decision. To them, the difference is a pedestrian that gets run over by a drunk driver vs the drunk driver that dies when he hits a tree.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Non-Aquatic Mouse:
There's where we differ. To me, a fetus is actual and a born child is potential, to fairly close to the same degree. The difference is one of location, not of essence.

Even a teenager is still "under construction".

Nonny

The difference is also experience.

The infant has had the profound experience of having its first completely and totally cataclysmic life change, that of leaving the womb to be born. It has begun its life journey. The teenager is on its life journey. And we are all still under construction.

To me equating the life of of a fetus with a born child, much less that of a teenager or a grown woman, negates the process of becoming human that we all go through. The ability to give rather than simply receive?

And, I know this argument has been beaten to death, but is there really any real difference between someone on the day before and after his/her 18th birthday? Yet we choose that time as a time at which total participation in society (apart from drinking, renting a car or becoming president) is a right.

And I would agree that to me there is very little difference between a fetus a day before birth and a baby one day after. There is a profound difference between a fetus at 1 month gestation and one at 6 months.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I am reminded of my ex-SIL's pregnancy, where she was admitted to hospital with pre-eclampsia. It wasn't at all certain that she would survive, and there was a good chance that the baby would die. Luckily, they both survived, but at that moment, I got to see what my priorities were, and I was much more concerned about my SIL than about my potential niece. In fact, much of my concern about my potential niece had to do with how my SIL would be able to cope if the baby didn't survive. This is not to say that I'm not attached to my (ex)niece. This seems like a normal, rational distinction to make.

We are concerned most immediately about those in our immediate circle: first, me (as selfish as that sounds, but if SO has a toothache, it's not on my mind as much as if I do), then those closest to me, then concentric circles of people I've met and heard about or who have mutual friends, all the way out to people far away, whom you sympathize with as people, but let's face it, a bus crash in India generally doesn't ruin the day of the average person in the US. This is *normal*, or we wouldn't be able to cope with life and death. And a fetus is further out in those concentric circles than the woman. It has to be.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Evil_eyes
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
Only at snopes would a thread about Rudy Guliani evolve into an abortion thread [Cool] .

I apologized for that, I do believe I started it on page 3, but It wasnt meant to morph into one.


E*E

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"Taking all the pain I give you
Loving blindly in return
And I need you more than ever"
WWW.Myspace.com/E_E2000

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:

To me equating the life of of a fetus with a born child, much less that of a teenager or a grown woman, negates the process of becoming human that we all go through.

To me, it's not all all a negation but a recognition of that process. Because it is a process, I am not comfortable pointing to one particular spot on the continuum and saying, "There! That's the moment he became a person!" Birth certainly is a significant, life-altering event--but for a life to be altered implies that it was already a life.

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Flowy Chloe:

We are concerned most immediately about those in our immediate circle: first, me (as selfish as that sounds, but if SO has a toothache, it's not on my mind as much as if I do), then those closest to me, then concentric circles of people I've met and heard about or who have mutual friends, all the way out to people far away, whom you sympathize with as people, but let's face it, a bus crash in India generally doesn't ruin the day of the average person in the US. This is *normal*, or we wouldn't be able to cope with life and death. And a fetus is further out in those concentric circles than the woman. It has to be.

Yes, yes, yes! That's perfect, Chloe. I am concerned if the homeless woman I encounter every day isn't around (and wish she could get the mental health care she so desperately needs).

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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But Nonny, if you value a fetus (and presumably an embryo, and a blastocyst) as much as a person, then you *are* pointing to a particular spot on the continuum and saying, "There! That's the moment he became a person! Right at that moment and not a second before!" You've just moved it up, and to what seems to be like an illogical point, so that if, for instance, your hypothetical sister told you she'd had an abortion, you'd grieve as much as if her beloved daughter had died of SIDS.

ETA: That came out as sounding aggressive, and it wasn't meant to. It seems illogical because the hypothetical sister might not even have been pregnant at all, and it's perfectly possible to be briefly pregnant and not even know about it.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Evil_eyes
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
quote:
Originally posted by Flowy Chloe:

We are concerned most immediately about those in our immediate circle: first, me (as selfish as that sounds, but if SO has a toothache, it's not on my mind as much as if I do), then those closest to me, then concentric circles of people I've met and heard about or who have mutual friends, all the way out to people far away, whom you sympathize with as people, but let's face it, a bus crash in India generally doesn't ruin the day of the average person in the US. This is *normal*, or we wouldn't be able to cope with life and death. And a fetus is further out in those concentric circles than the woman. It has to be.

Yes, yes, yes! That's perfect, Chloe. I am concerned if the homeless woman I encounter every day isn't around (and wish she could get the mental health care she so desperately needs).
T-Girl. I know a homeless man, he perfers to be with the tree's. I have tried paging him but he hasn't called me back and normally he does. I will have to stop by one of his camps this week and see if he is ok. He is one of the nicest people I know, he never allows me to give him anything, though I do buy him beer and cigs everynow and then. He is honest in his intentions and will actually work for money. I like him and I care about him, more so then my Ex husband

E8 sorry for hijacking*E

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"Taking all the pain I give you
Loving blindly in return
And I need you more than ever"
WWW.Myspace.com/E_E2000

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Oooohh! I didn't want to make this a pick on Nonny thread. It's just that she gave me food for thought....

Sorry, Nonny!

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Not just an abortion either. To place the same value on a fetus or embryo or blastocyst you would also, presumably, grieve at a sister's miscarriage in the same way you would grieve at a sister's death. We don't do that. Or, at any rate, the vast majority of us do not do that.

T'Girl posted:

quote:
I am pulling in from many things today. I watched a Nova last night about how in much of the world, girl children are viewed as less-than-- a liability. SOmething undesirable. It is less pronounced in our society, but I think it is still out there. A woman is worth less than a man; on this very forum there was someone proclaiming that he was not ready for a woman to be president (and I totally heart all the snopesters, male and female, who found this unfathomable).
This reminds me of something that was posted here a few months ago (hmm having said that, either here or another board I visit) anyway someone posted that they had just had their first grandchild and that it was a boy. But the way they worded their post it was very very clear that a boy was the prefered gender and they would have been disappointed if the child had been a girl. I was really surprised, not that people still think like this, but that they would say such a thing on a public forum and then be surprised that some fellow posters were less than impressed.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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And that was actually my main point. We get so many messages that the biological fact of our sex/gender makes us less than, that I get very annoyed at the idea that even a fetus is somehow equally valualbe as a grown woman.

One of the truly sad things in Nova last night was a woman who went through a pregnancy, nearly died, and wanted to go on birth control so she wouldn't go through that again; both her mother-in-law and husband were against that because she hadn't produced a boy. Now it's a bit more complicated because they lived in a patrilocal society where not having boys meant no security for old age-- but again it meant that their personal security was more important than the life of their wife or daughter-in-law. And yet there is talk about women having abortions for so-called lifestyle issues as being selfish! What is more selfish than saying "I don't care if you die a painful death. You need to produce a son so that I have a good retirement!"


The quiverful folks fit into this somehow as well.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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