quote:Organized religion fuels anti-gay discrimination and other forms of bias, pop star Elton John said in an interview published Saturday.
"I think religion has always tried to turn hatred toward gay people," John said in the Observer newspaper's Music Monthly Magazine. "Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays."
"But there are so many people I know who are gay and love their religion," he said. "From my point of view, I would ban religion completely. Organized religion doesn't seem to work. It turns people into really hateful lemmings and it's not really compassionate."
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I think organized religion creates hatred towards more than just gays. Most prolifically, organized religion creates hatred towards anyone who believes in a different ideology than the one that particular religion preaches.
Posts: 23 | From: Fargo, ND | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I think Elton John has always tried to turn hatred towards dull MOR soft rock songs.
Nice to know he has become an expert in theology and religious history from a gay perspective though- enough to paint all relgions as gay bashers anyways... just so long as I never have to hear Candle in the Wind again I think it mey be a good move.
-------------------- The Sqizzle formally known as Lexi Posts: 3231 | From: Nottingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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I think he missed a few key words. Like "can" "may" "in some cases" "in some people" etc. I guess that wouldn't make for good headlines though.
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quote:Originally posted by bjohn13: I think organized religion creates hatred towards more than just gays. Most prolifically, organized religion creates hatred towards anyone who believes in a different ideology than the one that particular religion preaches.
To be fair, it's not usually the ideologies of the religion's that promote hate, but rather the interpretation of these ideologies by bigoted people. However, you did specify organized religion, and I think the bigoted people with gross misinterpretations definitely speak the loudest (and thus do the most "promoting" of these religions) and therefore I would have to agree with you (and Elton).
quote:Originally posted by Christie: I think he missed a few key words. Like "can" "may" "in some cases" "in some people" etc. I guess that wouldn't make for good headlines though.
Well, it's been my experience that newspapers can sometimes be as much at fault as the people they're quoting. I'm not going to assert that's the case here, but it is possible that his quotes were distorted and/or taken out of context.
posted
sigh....cos after all, devoutly atheist philosophies (Stalinism, fascism) have such a brilliant track record when it comes to gay rights....
people are people are people and some will find a reason to hate the groups they are against, interpreted through their own filter. what to the Stalinist may be a "bourgeoise decadence" may to tbe Catholic be a "mortal sin".
this isn't to deny the role of religion in codifying, cementing and promoting regressive attidues; this is easily identifiable and to be opposed. but to blame "religion" as a whole is idiotic.
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quote:Originally posted by Christie: I think he missed a few key words. Like "can" "may" "in some cases" "in some people" etc. I guess that wouldn't make for good headlines though.
Well, it's been my experience that newspapers can sometimes be as much at fault as the people they're quoting. I'm not going to assert that's the case here, but it is possible that his quotes were distorted and/or taken out of context.
That's possible, but "From my point of view, I would ban religion completely" is kind of hard to misinterpret.
How is that a more tolerant attitude than the one he is condemning?
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quote:"It's like the peace movement in the '60s. Musicians got through to people by getting out there and doing peace concerts, but we don't seem to do them any more," he said. "If John Lennon were alive today, he'd be leading it with a vengeance."
I think he's forgetting about the G8 gigs of last year,
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Canuckistan
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Amigone201: That's the case here ... his quotes were distorted.
Oh, really? You unequivocally say his quotes were distorted? You're going to have to prove this now.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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"Organized power structures" encourage hatred. Facism, for example, is a power structure that encourages hatred and does so without religion.
The South Park of the last two weeks was incredibly timely - it depicted a future dominated by atheism where atheists STILL fought bloody wars over their own ideology, thanks to people like Richard Dawkins who choose to be presumptuous and rude to everyone about their own personal belief system.
I like how even he has to backpedal there on how many gays are actually religious. But rather than, oh, promote tolerance in the principles of their religion, he'd just ban it. Therefore, practicing the same bigotry he claims to be against. Oh right - it's not bigotry if you believe it.
-------------------- "One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings." -- Diogenes
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quote:"It's like the peace movement in the '60s. Musicians got through to people by getting out there and doing peace concerts, but we don't seem to do them any more," he said. "If John Lennon were alive today, he'd be leading it with a vengeance."
On the other hand, Lennon once put a man in the hospital for suggesting he was gay.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Amigone201: That's the case here ... his quotes were distorted.
Oh, really? You unequivocally say his quotes were distorted? You're going to have to prove this now.
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posted
So I take it Elton is declining the invitation my church group sent him to play at our "Really Hateful Lemmings Against Gays" fundraising concert?
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Canuckistan
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And all this time, I thought the naked mole rats were bad.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
hmmm... sir elton is partly correct, although he forgot one other kind of hatred that organised religion inspires: that which is in those who react against religion by condemning it and asking for it to be banned.
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-------------------- "One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings." -- Diogenes
"Vote Republican! We won't burn you at the stake for your religious beliefs or slaughter your family and steal your land." -- Ramblin' Dave Posts: 3555 | From: Florida | Registered: Feb 2002
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I think he has it backward, imo. Its the hatred that spouts religion, not the other way around. Has any non-hater ever had to force themselves to hate because of their religion? Not that i know of; its more like haters hide behind religion as their excuse to hate, to have a reason to hate.
-------------------- “We live in a society of victimization, where people are much more comfortable being victimized than actually standing up for themselves.” - Marilyn Manson "Well, end more, your not ending enough!" - MST3K Posts: 259 | From: Texas | Registered: Nov 2005
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Canuckistan
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quote:Has any non-hater ever had to force themselves to hate because of their religion?
Yup. Me.
When I started at the Pentecostal church, we were taught that gays were sinners. So, of course, I backed bigotry against gays (which led to some incredible self-loathing, I must add -- one of the main reasons I despise many Pentecostal churches to this day). The people in this church were also bigoted against Sikhs -- so I had to go along with it for a while.
Of course, this was before I grew up and started staying "WTF?" to the church's philosophies. But I would think that at least some converts start hating because God told them to.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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"its more like haters hide behind religion as their excuse to hate, to have a reason to hate."
I agree. Some people can't take the idea that they're jerks, so they hide behind something like a religion so they can justify it.
Posts: 41 | From: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Canuckistan: [QUOTE] I ... taught that gays were sinners....I backed bigotry against gays (which led to some incredible ... loathing.)... I despise ... Pentecostal ... people....also.
quote:Has any non-hater ever had to force themselves to hate because of their religion?
Yup. Me.
When I started at the Pentecostal church, we were taught that gays were sinners. So, of course, I backed bigotry against gays (which led to some incredible self-loathing, I must add -- one of the main reasons I despise many Pentecostal churches to this day). The people in this church were also bigoted against Sikhs -- so I had to go along with it for a while.
Of course, this was before I grew up and started staying "WTF?" to the church's philosophies. But I would think that at least some converts start hating because God told them to.
But would you say that it was the Penecostal religion that prompted them to hate gays and Sikhs, or their own individual hatred? You said "the people in this church", and i would agree that they represent the church, but they aren't separated from their own ideas.
-------------------- “We live in a society of victimization, where people are much more comfortable being victimized than actually standing up for themselves.” - Marilyn Manson "Well, end more, your not ending enough!" - MST3K Posts: 259 | From: Texas | Registered: Nov 2005
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Canuckistan
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Amigone: Absolutely beautiful! I salute my equal! (While I shan't acknowledge you as a superior, I shall be happy to enter a partnership with you whereby we distort the words of all those who would stand in our way! )
MaidenAthene: I wouldn't deny that, for some people, religion offers an excuse for their bigotry. My point was that, at least for some people, religion is the source of it, instead. It can work either way.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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Does this make Elton John a pIm? A pseudo-Irrelgious moron?
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quote:Originally posted by callee: hmmm... sir elton is partly correct, although he forgot one other kind of hatred that organised religion inspires: that which is in those who react against religion by condemning it and asking for it to be banned.
With all freedom comes the risk of excess.
With excess comes the risk of a backlash of regulation.
It's a never-ending cycle. (Freedom of speech invites pornography, which, in turn, invites censorship.)
I believe that religion, by and large, is in need of certain reforms. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, all three, need to work out a means of ejecting the violent and hateful from their midst. Ondoubt the Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, etc. etc. have the same need.
(The Hindu/Muslim clashes in northern India are particularly shameful to both of these faiths.)
But, as Jonny T points out, such criminality is not exclusive to religion. Perhaps *any* significantly large organized body of thought will be guilty of this kind of garbage. Does anyone imagine that a government made up of scientists would solve the world's problems?
Silas (Philosopher-Peasant)
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Now I love me some Elton John, I have been quoted as saying that I would love a chance to sleep with him. ( what don't look at me that way )
But um yeah, maybe he is a bit confused. He might have meant to say that there are people who are representing organised religion that just spread hate towards gays and anyone in general that do not believe in there religion. Not the religion itself.
Religion as I always understood it, is about love and acceptance of everyone, not just a certain set of people.
E* That may be the best I got*E
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I just wish I could disagree. I want to believe that religion is a good thing when not taken to extremes, but nearly every religious person I meet in RL (which is most people I meet, living in the Bible Belt) turns out to be a bigot of some sort. And all the really intelligent people I know are athiests. Okay, one exception - I do know a gay Catholic. But I consider him the exception that proves the rule.
(Edited for clarification & overcynicism... for the original phrasing check the quoted part of the replies)
-------------------- I believe I'm growing skeptical of cynicism. MyspaceNWNBoard Posts: 917 | From: Nashville TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Canuckistan: Amigone: Absolutely beautiful! I salute my equal! (While I shan't acknowledge you as a superior, I shall be happy to enter a partnership with you whereby we distort the words of all those who would stand in our way! )
quote:Originally posted by Canuckistan: MaidenAthene: I wouldn't deny that, for some people, religion offers an excuse for their bigotry. My point was that, at least for some people, religion is the source of it, instead. It can work either way.
It's like asking whether Hitler created anti-Semitism in Europe or merely preyed on the latent bigotry that already festered there. It was both. Some already believed, some were too easily persuaded, a few resisted.
The thing is, unless you are young, like in Canuckistan's case, every western Christian has a choice about what church they go to. Sure there are plenty of hateful ones out there, but IMO they draw a certain crowd of either the pre-bigoted or the naively trusting. The first are disgusting, the second, tragic, but neither are representational of what Christianity is supposed to be.
quote:Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer: I believe that religion, by and large, is in need of certain reforms. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, all three, need to work out a means of ejecting the violent and hateful from their midst. Ondoubt the Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, etc. etc. have the same need.
The idea is good, the problem is the application. You can't stop someone from calling themselves a Christian/Muslim/Hindu. Denominations are the result of subgroups seeking to differentiate themselves from their embarrassing co-religionists, but besides identifying yourself with a church with a better reputation and hoping people don't lump you with the Phelps of the world, there is little you can do without resorting to restricting someone else's religious freedom.
Unfortunately.
-------------------- The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House Posts: 2684 | From: Budapest | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 1958Fury: I just wish I could disagree. I want to believe that religion is a good thing when not taken to extremes, but every religious person I meet (which is nearly everyone around here) is a bigot of some sort. And all the really intelligent people I know are athiests. Okay, one exception - I do know a gay Catholic. But I consider him the exception that proves the rule.
Causation or correlation? Are they bigots who happen to be religious or is their religion making them bigoted?
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quote:Originally posted by 1958Fury: I just wish I could disagree. I want to believe that religion is a good thing when not taken to extremes, but every religious person I meet (which is nearly everyone around here) is a bigot of some sort. And all the really intelligent people I know are athiests. Okay, one exception - I do know a gay Catholic. But I consider him the exception that proves the rule.
Causation or correlation? Are they bigots who happen to be religious or is their religion making them bigoted?
I couldn't tell you. Probably some of each, but I don't know which is the majority.
I do know for a fact that some of the local churches ordered their congregations to vote against same-sex marriage.
-------------------- I believe I'm growing skeptical of cynicism. MyspaceNWNBoard Posts: 917 | From: Nashville TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
So then those churches are full of pretentious Christians. That makes all Christians pretentious? I mean, if my pastor told me how to vote, I'd stop going to that church.
There are many intelligent people of many faiths on these boards. I mean, I'd like to think I'm intelligent - at least enough to examine my own beliefs and accept that others exist in opposition to my own.
I just suggest you open your mind beyond your own preconceptions and educate yourself about the variety of people in the world, religious, agnostic, and atheist, before making a judgement worthy of the people you condemn.
-------------------- "One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings." -- Diogenes
"Vote Republican! We won't burn you at the stake for your religious beliefs or slaughter your family and steal your land." -- Ramblin' Dave Posts: 3555 | From: Florida | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by 1958Fury: I just wish I could disagree. I want to believe that religion is a good thing when not taken to extremes, but every religious person I meet (which is nearly everyone around here) is a bigot of some sort. And all the really intelligent people I know are athiests. Okay, one exception - I do know a gay Catholic. But I consider him the exception that proves the rule.
Are you a Stephen Colbert fan? Do you consider him intelligent? The reason I ask is that he is a practising Catholic. I realise you don't know him personally but...
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1958fury: You'd be suprised at how tolerant religous folk can be. Just take a look at this board: there are people here who are liberal and believe in god, so I don't necessairly think every religous person you've met is a bigot. And like it or not, there are those who are tolerant even if they presonally disagree with homosexuality, they believe in the "live and let live" philosophy, trust me, I've met af few in the five or some years I've roamed around message boards
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