Should the welfare systems have to support families like this, just because she wants to have a litter of kids instead of finishing school like a responsible person would do?
-------------------- Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket? Posts: 782 | From: Arlington, TX | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
If the alternative is not supporting them, then yes, of course. What would you prefer happen to them?
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
I think that council houses are like HUD or Section 8 housing, but I could be wrong. But it also says that she has worked full time as a special needs teacher so it sounds like she did finish school, you know, like a responsible person would.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
posted
Something needs to be done to prevent people from milking the welfae sysem like this... but I'll be damned if I know what. We can't take the kids away from the parents because they seem to be decent parents... We can't stop supporting them because clearly these people are using the money to support the kids not themselves...I dunno, I guess I'm not as bothered by this as I thought I'd be.
I am outraged by people who do this and then use the money to support themselves or their drug habits instead of their kids.
-------------------- "What!? Those are my graham crackers! Don't move I'm going to go find something to strike you with!" Posts: 66 | From: Baltimore, MD | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
It seems to me the only real issue here is that they started young - there's nothing to suggest the kids are being abused or maltreated - the parents seem to be keen to do some work. That the Dad has a disability is neither here nor there - sometimes people get ill. Consider - would there be an issue if the parents were in their 30's?
Dropbear
-------------------- " The villagers had said justice had been done, and she'd lost patience and told them to go home, then, and pray to whatever gods they believed in that it was never done to them. -- (Terry Pratchett) Posts: 823 | From: Hobart, Tasmania | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
It seems to me that they are two people who very much want to work, and have done so in the past, but circumstances are preventing it at the moment. They're together and raising thier children well, not milking the system. She's making sure the kids are eating well and getting their educations.
I think they should perhaps wait until they're a little more on their feet before they have any more kids.
Posts: 1359 | From: Akron, Ohio | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
While the people do sound like good parents, it does seem unfair to me that they're getting government money to pursue their dream just because that dream is to have a lot of children while other people with other dreams have to provide their own funds.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by effo5231: Something needs to be done to prevent people from milking the welfae sysem like this... but I'll be damned if I know what.
How about after the first one in born, the use of Norplant is mandatory.
-------------------- Where I come from we believe all sorts of things that aren't true. We call it History. Posts: 506 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Troodon: While the people do sound like good parents, it does seem unfair to me that they're getting government money to pursue their dream just because that dream is to have a lot of children while other people with other dreams have to provide their own funds.
It doesn't sit right with me either, but I don't know what to do about it. If I couldn't afford to have children I wouldn't do it. I certainly wouldn't continue to do it after I'm already taking public funds. That's just not right imho.
posted
Absolutely! The role of the state should be to mandate or forbid the use of contraception, depending on the acceptability of the person who may or may not reproduce. What an excellent plan.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Troodon: While the people do sound like good parents, it does seem unfair to me that they're getting government money to pursue their dream just because that dream is to have a lot of children while other people with other dreams have to provide their own funds.
He gets disability payments because he's disabled. It has nothing to do with their dreaming of a large family. They apparently also receive housing aid, and maybe that's not strictly "fair," but what's the alternative?
quote:Originally posted by Eif: How about after the first one in born, the use of Norplant is mandatory.
Interesting. What's the family income cutoff before the government gets to control people's fertility? What if a woman's already pregnant when the family income suddenly drops due to unemployment or disability -- should the government be able to require an abortion? What if the government thinks that the Jonese are wasting their large income and big house by not having children -- can they be forced to conceive?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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What is the status of govt. funding for BC, abortion, sex ed like in the UK? I really think that if those things are up to par, then these folk who are really into breeding, will be balanced out by other folk who either don't breed or breed reasonably.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by effo5231: Something needs to be done to prevent people from milking the welfae sysem like this... but I'll be damned if I know what.
How about after the first one in born, the use of Norplant is mandatory.
What if they have medical issues with it? The last hormonal medication I was on (for endometriosis, not contraception, but it was a birth control pill) gave me anxiety attacks.
Nonny
-------------------- When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 10141 | From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
If you can't afford kids, you shouldn't have them. However, if we are to assume that the general public live their lives using any amount of intelligence, we're fooling ourselves.
-------------------- They just don't make crazed, beserk robots like they used to. --Sheen Estevez, Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius
If I manage to post something swipe-worthy that you would like to make your sig, you may do so with my blessing. Posts: 2486 | From: East Stroudsburg, PA | Registered: Oct 2005
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But we help people afford children they otherwise would struggle to afford *all the time*. We give people breaks on their taxes, we fund public schools. Funny, no one ever objects to those parents who take tax deductions for their children as sponging off the state.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Glowy Chloe: Absolutely! The role of the state should be to mandate or forbid the use of contraception, depending on the acceptability of the person who may or may not reproduce. What an excellent plan.
That was precisely what I was thinking.
Perhaps we should get together and start a club?
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Only if you agree that you get bonus reproduction points for being rich, white, and good-looking. Otherwise, there's no point in even starting to discuss it.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
This brings up the bigger issue of whether reproduction is a right. I do not think it is, but I do think that there is a right to freedom from unwanted medical (and especially surgical) intervention, including forced birth control. Thus, the only thing I can think of doing about people like those in the OP is making a law against having children while on government assistance and then taking away such children and putting the parents in jail, but while that gets the point across, it's just cruel and I can't support destroying a family even if I do feel that the parents aren't "playing fair" with society's money.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Contraception is provided free for all UK women regardless of income-even condoms are free from the family planning clinic, although I'm sure most people just go and buy them becuase it's easier. Abortion is available on request, again free on the NHS.
Council housing is housing rented by the local council, a lot cheaper than the private sector. Until recently, loads of people lived in council houses and there was no stigma to it. However, loads of it was sold off cheap under the right to buy scheme and so there is little quality housing left.
They do seem like decent people although it would have been wiser if the couple at least left school before having their first baby.
-------------------- I tried to get in touch with my inner child, but she isn't allowed to talk to strangers. Posts: 674 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2004
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posted
My problem isn't that they have 5 children or live on benefits, my problem is that she's so young! I cannot even imagine my daughter, who is incidentally the same age as this girl, being a mother to 5 children. I'm sure this girl loves those kids and she does sound like she's trying to be a good mum, but I can't help feeling that she's lost her youth and that someday she may regret that very much.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Troodon: This brings up the bigger issue of whether reproduction is a right. I do not think it is, but I do think that there is a right to freedom from unwanted medical (and especially surgical) intervention, including forced birth control. Thus, the only thing I can think of doing about people like those in the OP is making a law against having children while on government assistance and then taking away such children and putting the parents in jail, but while that gets the point across, it's just cruel and I can't support destroying a family even if I do feel that the parents aren't "playing fair" with society's money.
In the US, reproduction is, in fact, a right.
I don't know about the UK, though.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
There may well have been an unfortunate change in Dax and Susie Christan's circumstances leaving them dependant on benefits, we have no idea from the article when Dax's crippaling arthritis left him unable to work. But:
quote:And now 21-year-old Mrs Christian and her husband Dax want a sixth child to add to their ever-expanding brood.
So now, in their reduced circumstances, they want to have another child? Give this couple a realty pill.
As STF said, and echoed by Purple Iguana
quote:If I couldn't afford to have children I wouldn't do it. I certainly wouldn't continue to do it after I'm already taking public funds. That's just not right imho.
After the birth of DS, Mrs. L and I decided we simply couldn't afford to have another child. We lived with it. We got over it. I decided to have a vasectomy, but we were that strapped we couldn't even afford that. To get one on the NHS involved jumping through hoops, and a sympathetic GP. But the way I considered it was:
Vasectomy. Cost to state - £125 One off.
Long term birth-control (Pill, condoms all free on the NHS) - cost to state - undetermined.
Each and any additional child. Cost to state for:
Obstetric and midwifery care. Health visitor. Vaccination. Schooling. Child benefit. Any additional health services required by child. I can't put any figures on these, but I bet it's more than £125.
ETA according to this article written in October 2003, Dax has been unable to work since January 2003.
quote:I've been off work since January because I have got a bad back.
No wonder he's got a bloody bad back!
-------------------- "Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people." Posts: 997 | From: Maidstone, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
I was wondering if these people are chavs. Is that the right term? There have been articles on them having large families, and they seem to be some kind of whipping boy for the problems with the UK's benefit system.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
quote:Originally posted by Glowy Chloe: Only if you agree that you get bonus reproduction points for being rich, white, and good-looking. Otherwise, there's no point in even starting to discuss it.
Heck, I'm white. Can I get one-third of a point?
Pogue
-------------------- Let's drink to the causes in your life: Your family, your friends, the union, your wife. Posts: 11325 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Originally posted by effo5231: Something needs to be done to prevent people from milking the welfae sysem like this... but I'll be damned if I know what. ... I am outraged by people who do this and then use the money to support themselves or their drug habits instead of their kids.
It just seems like you want to be outraged.
And so many on this board want to be self-righteous and judgmental when it comes to how other people live their lives.
Pogue
-------------------- Let's drink to the causes in your life: Your family, your friends, the union, your wife. Posts: 11325 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Glowy Chloe: Only if you agree that you get bonus reproduction points for being rich, white, and good-looking. Otherwise, there's no point in even starting to discuss it.
Heck, I'm white. Can I get one-third of a point?
Pogue
I meet two out of three and I'm still waiting for my points...
-------------------- W.W.F.S.M.D? But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley Posts: 2311 | From: Minnnesota | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I've always been opposed to the idea of large families, even when they can be afforded and be well taken care of. It's just that there is such an overpopulation already that I don't get it.
Also, how can a body handle so many pregnancies?? In 3 months pregnant with my first child and I have morning sickness so badly that medicine doesn't help, I throw up almost everything I eat. I have developed a slight heart problem because of the excess bloodflow and I developed Face paralisys on the right side of my face because the pregnancy caused my immune system to weaken. I was never ever sick, not even a cold. With all these problems you can be sure that this is going to be my ONLY pregnancy.
-------------------- Smile....It confuses people! Posts: 29 | From: Toronto, ON | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
While I agree that people shouldn't have more children than they can afford, at least this family is taking care of the children, feeding them properly, and they seem to really care about each other.
So in at least that regard, they're better parents than some people I know (that can afford to have lots of children and I hope to NFBSK that they DON'T!)
He's on disability honestly, and it sounds like she at least completed her education and works when she can. It doesn't sound like they are truly abusing the system.
Also, not everyone has "difficult" pregnancies. I have some friends that are from large families; some women have very easy pregnancies/childbirth. It's still better for a woman's body to "heal" in between, a child a year isn't the best thing but she's obviously handling it (relatively) well.
I have a 4yr old and I am 2 months pregnant. I understand her desire to have children; it took me over 2 years to get pregnant this time around. While I don't want to have 5 (or more) it's her right to have them.
Kathryn
-------------------- Keeper of the American Idol Pool 2006
quote:Originally posted by Glowy Chloe: Absolutely! The role of the state should be to mandate or forbid the use of contraception, depending on the acceptability of the person who may or may not reproduce. What an excellent plan.
Actually, I think we should take reproduction out of the hands entirely. We should encourage people to be sexually open and explorative, while removing reproduction from the human body. We can get all the different sorts of people we need for society to function properly by moving reproduction from the womb to the conveyer belt. In fact, we can entirely remove the need for parenthood entirely! And marriage too!
We just have to make sure not to allow any alcohol to contaminate the baby-growing containers...
El "Alpha Plus?" Camino
Posts: 1048 | From: Brunswick, Maine | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Gaia: [QB] I've always been opposed to the idea of large families, even when they can be afforded and be well taken care of. It's just that there is such an overpopulation already that I don't get it.
Its not the birth rate that causes (relative) population growth.
Teaching people to make unhealthful decision, eat nothing but junk, and salt, and take stupid risks, drink water contaminated by agricultural run-off is the way to counter population growth.
(On Average a woman in Canada has 1.44 children, nowhere near enough to sustain the population)
Posts: 201 | From: Toronto, ON | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I can't see why so many of you are bothered by this.
They are not claiming special benefits. The Dad effectively has a job - it's just that he's off work at the moment on a disability benefit, which he'd be getting whether or not he had kids.
Posts: 225 | From: Adelaide, Australia | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Glowy Chloe: Absolutely! The role of the state should be to mandate or forbid the use of contraception, depending on the acceptability of the person who may or may not reproduce. What an excellent plan.
Actually, I think we should take reproduction out of the hands entirely. We should encourage people to be sexually open and explorative, while removing reproduction from the human body. We can get all the different sorts of people we need for society to function properly by moving reproduction from the womb to the conveyer belt. In fact, we can entirely remove the need for parenthood entirely! And marriage too!
We just have to make sure not to allow any alcohol to contaminate the baby-growing containers...
El "Alpha Plus?" Camino
I've always said Aldous Huxley had the right idea but does anyone ever listen to me? No! Everytime I have a brilliant idea it seems like...hey...where are you going?....Guys?.....Guys?!?!
-------------------- WARNING: Men viewed through beer goggles may be uglier than they appear! Posts: 50 | From: Springfield, OH | Registered: Apr 2006
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