quote: VANCOUVER -- Women who are told their female genes make them poor mathematicians actually do poorly on math tests, says a new study.
Researchers at the University of British Columbia also found the reverse is true: women who are told their gender is irrelevant to math skill do well on the same tests.
The research adds fuel to the long-simmering debate on gender difference in math ability, but the UBC team says its study also has implications for how scientists should handle discoveries of genes linked to mental and physical conditions.
The researchers set out to explore if giving women different explanations for the sterotype that they can't do math would impact their actual performance.
It's a concept known as stereotype threat, in which being reminded of long-held beliefs about a group to which you belong will make you act in accordance with that stereotype.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Does it matter if you don't listen to what you're told?
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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what if it has been determined that you have an actual math learning disability and you happen to be a female? does that make any difference? (like me?)
-------------------- "Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't they?" --the Scarecrow
"The Christian Right is neither." Posts: 72 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Nov 2005
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Traumatic flashback of my father telling me the only reason I have so much trouble in math is that I've bought into the stereotype that girls are no good in math....
I'd never even heard about any such stereotype until that moment.
Nonny
-------------------- When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 10141 | From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2000
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We studied stereotype threat in my social psychology classes. It doesn't just affect women, of course; blacks who take a test, immediately after being told that blacks don't usually score as well, tend to do poorly, as do elderly people who just read about age-related mental decline. But if the test is preceded by a pep-talk of sorts, scores are much higher, and virtually identical to the majority average. Makes me wonder how much genes could really be responsible for, and whether every measure of who we are is just a social construct.
-------------------- "If God wrote it, the grammar must be infallible. Perhaps it is we who are mistaken." -MapleLeaf Posts: 977 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Oct 2005
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In other news, water is wet and the sky is up.
I think it is very important to acknowledge that what we are told can have a very strong (both positive and negative) influence on us.
Yet I'm also a very firm believer that not all of us are equally capable in fields such as math, science & art -- all the encouragement and self-confidence in the world won't change that. I think you only need to look at the American/Australian Idol reject tapes to see many, many examples of people who have apparently received a lot of positive reinforcement from friends and family that they can sing... when in fact they cannot.
-------------------- "victory thru self-deception" Posts: 2211 | From: Western Australia | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Women who were told that their previous experience with math would be the deciding factor in test scores gave twice as many correct answers as women who read the essay blaming their genes.
Can anyone find the original research report on the net?
Reading the right essay before taking a math test doubles your score. And a lifetime of math study (as well as psychological self-image formation) goes out the door, when, after reading that one wrong-headed essay, your score is halved. Hard to fathom.
Presumably, the psychological effect of having just read one of these essays goes on top of the psychological effect of all prior lifetime messages the woman has heard regarding female math ability. How does the effect of the lifetime of messages compare to reading one essay? Does your prior lifetime exposure to feminism double or halve your score again? Amazing then that any woman born before 1950 can count (or that anyone attending a woman's college fails to get all A's in math).
Or am I to conclude that the effect of a message concerning women's ability provided right before the test is more important than everything that came before? This is just hard to believe (not to mention pretty insulting to women). Were none of the women outraged enough by the negative essay to try harder?
Often, the study is better than the newspaper summary.
Funny how the newspaper summary is like saying water is wet to one poster, but utterly preposterous to me. C'est la vie.
-------------------- "Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?" Julius Lester Posts: 5780 | From: Suburban Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Registered: Oct 2001
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I don't have a reference to the research described in the article, but the original research on stereotype threat and women in math is Spencer, Steele & Quinn, 1999, Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, called 'Stereotype threat and women's math performance'. The original paper on stereotype threat (focused mainly on the effects with Black students) was by Steele & Aronson, published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, called Stereotype threat and the intellectual test performance of African-Americans.
Reading that news report, it's old news for social psychology. I'm not sure what they've added over the original findings (and stereotype threat is quite a robust finding - there are dozens of papers now looking at it with a wide variety of groups). Although in the interest of full disclosure, Steve Spencer (first author on the article I referenced above) happens to have been my dissertation advisor. Posts: 160 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Monster Mousse: Traumatic flashback of my father telling me the only reason I have so much trouble in math is that I've bought into the stereotype that girls are no good in math....
I'd never even heard about any such stereotype until that moment.
Nonny
One of my sixth-grade teachers reportedly told a friend's mother, "Girls don't need to know math and science." Guess which subjects that teacher taught?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sara at home
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quote:Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:Originally posted by Monster Mousse: Traumatic flashback of my father telling me the only reason I have so much trouble in math is that I've bought into the stereotype that girls are no good in math....
I'd never even heard about any such stereotype until that moment.
Nonny
One of my sixth-grade teachers reportedly told a friend's mother, "Girls don't need to know math and science." Guess which subjects that teacher taught?
Despite the fact that math and science were generally my highest grades and among the highest grades at any school I attended, I was never encouraged by anyone to go into any field remotely related to either math or science. Rather, I was subtly discouraged so that even after having the highest grade in my advanced chemistry class as a high school junior, I chickened out of advance physics the next year. The chemistry teacher was the most overt in his belief that girls couldn't do math or science and it was obvious he was not happy that my grades were higher than the boys'. It wasn't until years later when I finally took a survey physics course in college that I discovered physics was, for me, easy.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I had the highest grade in 8th grade science. The teacher, however, always praised the boys to the hilt, saying that Peter or Tony had great futures in science. The only time he acknowledged me was when we were separating ink using paper chromatography; then he said "Look at the pretty colors! See, Turquoise Girl, here is something you can relate to."
As it was I did relate to it. I thought solubility differences were fascinating, never mind the "pretty colors".
However, my 10th grade teacher more than made up for it. He was the first one to tell me that I had real talent for chemistry, and, in his opinion, I should really consider a research career instead of becoming a nurse. I sent him a copy of my first research paper!
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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I was just having a discussion with my mother about math ability. I was expressing concern about taking the GRE again especially because I'd have to relearn algerbra. Mom said "But you always did so good in math." This is not my recollection. I considered myself a poor student of math. Hated the homework and got very little out of classes in high school. Now, I went to an all girl high school that was pretty high achieving. They were not telling us we should be bad in math. In college I had to take algebra and the guy was pretty good about explaining things. I'm fairly certain that I would be lost with a quadradic equasion today Now I'm wondering if this perception is coloring my perception of my past.
Posts: 1168 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl: However, my 10th grade teacher more than made up for it. He was the first one to tell me that I had real talent for chemistry, and, in his opinion, I should really consider a research career instead of becoming a nurse. I sent him a copy of my first research paper!
you should have sent it to your 8th grade teacher!
When I was in 12th grade I went in to my guidance counsellor for a simple class change - the morning session to the afternoon - and instead this old fart - actually the football coach, made to work p/t in student guidance because the school budget couldn't jusitfy hiring someone solely as a football coach - launches into me about how I'd signed up for OAC's the next year. OAC was the equivalent of grade 13 in ontario at that time, but it was specially set up to place you in university. IOW, you didn't take OAC's unless you were planning on going to university.
So this old guidance fart leans back in his chair and says "callee, I notice you're signed up for OACs next year, why would you do that?" "um, because I want to," I replied. "callee, look at your grades thus far [they were bad - i was a lazy student] and look at your attendance record [I was always skipping to go to the beach], it's obvious that you're just not cut out for academics. Why are you going to waste your time, and more importantly, the government's money trying to do OACs that you're just not going to be able to do?" I was absolutely floored, I had no idea how to respond. He continued, "callee, there are people who are cut out for university, and people who aren't. You're not. You need to think about your future. If you drop out now you can go and get a nice, comfortable job at the steel mill. Sure, it won't be fun, but it will be good, honest work and you'll be able to make a living by it. Someday, maybe even get married, buy a small home. Why don't you do that, and give up on this OAC nonsense?"
I was quite shocked and impacted by this. I didn't know what to say, so I told him just to switch the damn course I had come in for!
I've had a lot of academic success since then, obviously. I've had a few minor publications, but I just had one accepted in the most prestigious journal in my field. I am exceedingly excited, and I promise you, as soon as I get the off print, I'm sending that old fart a copy.
-------------------- a moment for old friends now estranged, victims of the flux of alliances and changing perceptions. There was something there once, and that something is worth honoring as well. - John Carroll Posts: 3375 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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Callee, jumping off your post, it irritates me that high school grades are so important for college admissions. It seems for many of us our HS grades indicate only how much stamina we have for enduring tedium and frustration. While that is an important life skill, it is not necessarily indicative of how well a student will do in college.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sara at home
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quote:Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl: I had the highest grade in 8th grade science. The teacher, however, always praised the boys to the hilt, saying that Peter or Tony had great futures in science.
Kenny and I were lab partners. There was no one for Jim to partner with so Dear Chemistry Teacher assigned Jim to our group because, he said laughing, "Kenny's going to need all the help he can get with Sara as his partner". The only way they got within 10 points of my final grade was because Dear Chemistry Teacher graded on a curve that excluded me because, he said, my grade was above the curve. However, the next highest grade -- a boy -- was on the curve so his grade went up two points, just enough to put him one point above me. Cute, huh?
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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When I was in high school my friend Barbara always won all the math and science prizes. In grade 11, at graduation, she was the top scholar and ended up getting medals for physics, chemistry and math. She ended up at CEGEP studying nursing. I met her a few years ago and she was still bitter. She had wanted to go to university and prepare for a career in medicine and was discouraged from doing this despite her obvious abilities. It would be easy to say she should have just gone ahead and done it but not everyone has the self-confidence to move beyond the expectations others have for them.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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You women make me feel so lucky to have had two science teachers in HS who did nothing but encourage me. The boys in class gave me a hard time for a number of reasons, but good old Mr. Jackson and Mr. Kuwada were some of the best science teachers a girl could hope for.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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Christie, my own mother discouraged me from pursuing medicine. She thought I should "stick to" nursing.
When I graduated with a biology degree, she thought that I should go be a lab tech for awhile before going to grad school, because she wasn't sure I had what it took to become a real researcher. Of course she is proud of me now, but I got the feeling all through grad school that I was acting pretty far above myself.
If it hadn't been for that chemistry teacher, who convinced me to go on for college ("If you still want to be a nurse you can always go back for your BSN afterwards"), my dad and my professors in college, I probably would have been a nurse and sucked at it. I just do not have the personality or patience.
The thing was a nurse was what, in my mom's family, was the absolutely best career a woman could hope to achieve.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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My grandmother is convinced that if I finish my PhD, my ovries will wilt and my soon-to-be spouse will dump me. Actually, she suspects that my ovries have already wilted, but it'll certainly happen if I get that PhD.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong: My grandmother is convinced that if I finish my PhD, my ovries will wilt and my soon-to-be spouse will dump me. Actually, she suspects that my ovries have already wilted, but it'll certainly happen if I get that PhD.
Well, they are already losing vowels...
-------------------- Nico Sasha In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel. Posts: 4912 | From: VA | Registered: Jul 2003
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When I was in my Jr and Sr years of college, I had a job working on excursion boats on the upper Mississippi. One of the owners of the company was quite the sexist jerk. He would insist that the "girls" not carry heavy things because it would "damage [our] reproductive systems".
This despite the fact that by the end of the summer, the only limitation to the number of 12 packs of beer I could carry (5) was that I could see over more than that.
So one day, we had an all female crew, including a female crew cheif. As I was carrying a big catering box across the swing stage, by myself, she shouted to me "TGirl! Oh! My! God! Your uterus! It just fell in the river!!!" She claimed later to not know that the sexist jerk was within earshot.
I, on the other hand, was laughing so hard that I nearly float tested an entire catering box full of chicken cordon bleu.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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Apparently I am hijack girl today but I am reading Anna Karenina and the sheer number of things Kitty isn't allowed to do during her pregnancy is just baffling. She can't play with children or hear loud noises or walk or stand up even. It's not all that comforting that the book is over a hundred years old.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl: As I was carrying a big catering box across the swing stage, by myself, she shouted to me "TGirl! Oh! My! God! Your uterus! It just fell in the river!!!"
YOMANK!
Re: pregnant women, how long ago was it that society abandoned the Victorian idea of sequestering them in the home once they started "showing"? (Women who could afford to be sequestered, that is)
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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