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Author Topic: BA asks employee to conceal cross/crucifix
Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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I don't think what you're describing is "balance". Again, there is no prohibition at all on wearing a cross (or a star of David, or an inverted cross, or a shrinky-dink flying spaghetti monster on a chain) per se. There is a prohibition on visible jewellery, not a prohibition on items of apparel that might indicate your religion.

A number of posts in this thread (although not yours, FoA) seem to suggest that the reasoning behind BA's policy is that people might be "offended" by the sight of a staff member wearing religious apparel. I don't think that's the issue at all. "No visible jewellery" is a really standard workplace dress code.

The exception has been made on the basis that all (or close to all) practising Sikhs must wear a bangle, and that it’s difficult to conceal a bangle under one’s clothing. Not even close to some practising Christians believe that wearing a crucifix is a requirement of their religion (OK, I have no cite for that, but this thread is the first time I've ever seen anyone state that some Christians might believe strongly enough in wearing a crucifix that it could amount to a "requirement" of their faith).

The issue has far more to do with the practicality of concealing jewellery than it does with choosing which religions to make concessions to. Which is why I think BA has got it right (or as right as they’re going to get it).

AS an aside, I now really want to get hold of a shrinky-dink flying spaghetti monster on a chain...

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I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.

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Cinnamon
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Embra:
AS an aside, I now really want to get hold of a shrinky-dink flying spaghetti monster on a chain...

I was thinking exactly the same thing. That would be cool. [Big Grin]

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Friends of Alfred
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Cinnamon:
quote:
Originally posted by Embra:
AS an aside, I now really want to get hold of a shrinky-dink flying spaghetti monster on a chain...

I was thinking exactly the same thing. That would be cool. [Big Grin]
Especially if it glowed in the dark. [Smile]

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There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

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Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Apparently you can buy shrink plastic so you can make your very own shrinky dinks.

First one to make a flying spaghetti monster gets to lead to spaghetti congregation [Big Grin]

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I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.

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Dactingyl
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I have no idea what a shrinky dink flying spaghetti monster is but I'm sure as hell going to find out!

Hmm....a quick search on google brought back nothing, however, removing Shrinky Dink brought up this:

 -

Bizarrely the tenth search result was this:

 -

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Dactingyl is meant to sound a bit like Christingle.

It's not very good but I couldn't think of anything else.

Sorry.

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Lainie
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Now try Googling "shrinky dinks," and put the two concepts together.

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Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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A shrinky dink is a plastic decorative object made by decorating shrink-plastic and then putting it in the oven. You get a small, thick plastic thingy as a result of the plastic's shrinkage, and any colours turn brighter. You can apparently achieve a similar effect by putting crisp packets in a low oven...

Shrinky-dinks were given away with some breakfast cereals here in the 70s. Notably Shreddies.

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I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.

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hoitoider
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Dactyl:
Hmm....a quick search on google brought back nothing, however, removing Shrinky Dink brought up this:

Seems like the Flying Spaghetti Monster should be re-named the Flying Scrotum Monster (love the Medusa pubic hair - adds a nice classical touch).

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LeaflessMapleTree
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quote:
And ankhs, then. And pentacles. And Stars of David. And swastikas. And kitties. And other animals anyone's ever worshipped. And an atheist symbol. And agnostics. What about gay pride?
IMHO it depends on why you are wearing the swastika. Are you a Nazi? If so, you are wearing a symbol of hatred, not religion, and I think BA can (and should) ban it. If you are wearing it as a religious symbol (which predated the Nazis, of course), then yeah, it would fall under the rest of the quoted list.

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Avril
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On the question of the requirements of the Qu'ran and veiling:

Surah 24:31:

quote:
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands fathers, their sons, their husbands sons, their brothers or their brothers sons, or their sisters sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.
Avril

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Friends of Alfred
The First USA Noel


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Interesting that the quote from the Qu'ran refers to female slaves.

I doubt anybody on the board would defend somebody's right to keep female slaves (who their right posesses no less), just because they are of the Muslim faith.

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There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

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Spamamander in a pear tree
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The Bible does too- there's whole chapters on how to treat,and care for your slaves. Examples of when it's acceptable to sell your daughters into slavery. What people it's ok to enslave, and in what circumstance. Heck, there's ven stories of women sending their husbands "in unto" their female slaves (the KJV tends to cushion it by calling them 'maids' or 'handmaidens' or somesuch) to get them pregnant so they can take the child and raise it to be their own- thereby condoning rape and forced pregnancy.

This is not a valid comparison, so don't attempt to go there please. Most modern religions have evolved in their views on human rights to some degree- back when these stories were first recorded, human slavery was common. Even during the Civil War era in the US, the Bible was used to back up the idea that black Africans were intended to be slaves to whites. I myself have issues with "picking and choosing" what parts of a religious document to follow, such as conservative Christians slamming on homosexuality as a horrible sin, yet not following the other thousands of equally 'important' laws layed out in Leviticus. I don't think that continuing a tradition of modesty as laid out in the Qu'ran is exactly comperable to keeping slaves however, particularly when there are Christian groups which demand similar things- around here we have a Mennonite population, where even when the women hold jobs they must keep their heads covered with a mesh bonnet of sorts. It's a perfectly reasonable accomodation.

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Mistletoey Chloe
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quote:
Originally posted by MapleLeaf:
quote:
And ankhs, then. And pentacles. And Stars of David. And swastikas. And kitties. And other animals anyone's ever worshipped. And an atheist symbol. And agnostics. What about gay pride?
IMHO it depends on why you are wearing the swastika. Are you a Nazi? If so, you are wearing a symbol of hatred, not religion, and I think BA can (and should) ban it. If you are wearing it as a religious symbol (which predated the Nazis, of course), then yeah, it would fall under the rest of the quoted list.
How would people viewing one's swastika know whether it was intended as an expression of religion, or as an expression of antisemitism?

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Canuckistan
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Depends on the direction of the swastika. If it's the reverse of the Nazi version, it's a religious symbol that's been used for a very, very long time.

How should people know this? The same way I learned: by asking. (No snark; it's really how I learned.)

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Friends of Alfred
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It was just a throw away observation WereSpamamander

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There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

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Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Avril said:
On the question of the requirements of the Qu'ran and veiling:

I think the problem is that it's not enough to cite the Koran, and particularly not enough to cite an English translation with annotations - in the version you use, for example, the word "Juyubihinna" is not directly translated, even though it is fundamental to an understanding of the passage.

It seems to be a matter of debate and individual conscience among Muslims, even without non-Muslims pointing at bits of the Koran (apologies in advance to Avril: I don't know what religion you folllow, if any).

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I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.

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Avril
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I was answering a request on a previous page for a citation from the Qu'ran since there were those claiming the book says nothing about veils and I remembered reading something about it. Note I did not comment. I'm well aware that particular passage is subject to a good deal of interpretation. There's another reference in the Qu'ran I would track down if I wasn't so busy.

As for my own religion, well, I think that has no particular bearing on me finding a citation requested, as I had no motivation in posting it other than the desire to answer a question. I hold a B.A. in Religious Studies and am one semester and a half shy of an M.A.Th. in Theological Studies, after which I will get a Ph.D. in Religious Studies. Thus I have at least some objective training giving me some scholarly sort of clout (I guess the degree of clout would depend upon to whom one spoke...anyway, the comment about clout is somewhat tongue-in-cheek).

I make no secret of my own faith, but I'm curious as to who will out me first, so I won't tell... [Wink]

Avril

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Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I was answering a request on a previous page
doh! Missed that bit.

Bah. Here you come with your Special Religious Training [Wink]

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I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.

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callee
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Avril:
I make no secret of my own faith, but I'm curious as to who will out me first, so I won't tell... [Wink]

Avril

don't be silly avril, everyone knows you're a satanist, it's obvious from the giant swastika you wear around your neck.

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a moment for old friends now estranged, victims of the flux of alliances and changing perceptions. There was something there once, and that something is worth honoring as well. - John Carroll

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:
Depends on the direction of the swastika. If it's the reverse of the Nazi version, it's a religious symbol that's been used for a very, very long time.

How should people know this? The same way I learned: by asking. (No snark; it's really how I learned.)

Kipling used the older version of the swastika as part of his personal glyph on the covers and spines of his books. However, during the last ten years or so of his life, because of the rise of Nazism, he stopped doing so. (It is one of the biggest slanders people calling Kipling a fascist or something similar. If you will read his stories and many of his poems he depicts many of the 'natives' with sympathy and respect, and many of his sahibs are either foolish or wicked.)

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Noemi
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueStar:
Sorry, I should have been more specific - the link provided to a description of the inverted cross said that it was sometimes used to represent Thor's Hammer, so I was talking about someone wearing what could be construed as the debils cross because they like Mr Thor.

That's OK, I should've been more clear as well. I was trying to get at the fact that while it looks a bit like a reversed cross, I think someone would have to be pretty dense to jump to the conclusion that it is. This is an excellent picture of that style of hammer and it really only has a very superficial resemblence.

Of course I may be giving people too much credit.

Noemi "I prefer the look of the Birka hammer myself"

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DevilBunny
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One of my friends is a Satanist. Fairly pleasant bloke, respects my religion...

Again, Friends of Alfred, there's personal choices, and personal choices. My personal choice to have scrambled eggs for breakfast is not remotely comparable to my personal choice to take out a 25-year mortgage on a house.

And likewise, if someone said, 'take your necklace off or lose your job' I'd take my necklace off, of course. But if they said, 'change your religion or lose your job' I'd lose my job, because that's a very different choice.

To ask a Christian woman to wear her cross under her clothes is the first. To ask a sikh not to wear a bangle is the second.

You can see that these are not the same thing, right?

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Malruhn
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Something that hasn't been brought up yet:

Wearing of ANYTHING on a uniform makes a statement that the COMPANY endorses said product. Pretty kittens and flowers and butterflies are nice - and having them on your lapel says that your company likes nice, pretty things.

Likewise, to have a pentacle, cross or bloody dagger on your lapel says that your employer endorses those things as well.

BA doesn't want to say that they are a "Christian" company... they are "just" a company... period.

This is why she has to hide her cross.

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BringTheNoise
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Sorry to drag this up again, but it was reported today that the woman's appeal has been rejected:
BBC News Report

quote:
"In Nadia Eweida's case, she is not suspended and we want her to come back to work. We have explained to her the need to comply with the uniform policy like all her colleagues whatever their faith."

BA said Ms Eweida had been offered a non-uniformed post were she would be able to openly wear her cross but had refused to take it.

No sympathy for her, especially with the offer of a different post so that she could wear her cross. She has seven days to lodge a further (and final) appeal.

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PallasAthena
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Sounds to me like BA is trying to be as accomodating as possible. IMHO, if she refuses to be reasonably accomodated that's her own problem.

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
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If I were the woman in question, I would simply wear a very plain hairband in a uniform-friendly color with a tiny cross embroidered or screen-printed on it. After all, religious headgear's permitted, right?

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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Mistletoey Chloe
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Not unless wearing it's a tenet of your religion.

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Hans Off
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quote:
Originally posted by Non-Aquatic Mouse:
If I were the woman in question, I would simply wear a very plain hairband in a uniform-friendly color with a tiny cross embroidered or screen-printed on it. After all, religious headgear's permitted, right?

Nonny

Stepping into your scenario...

I have to ask...

Why? isn't that just shit-stirring?

Or to put it more politley...

To what end? what is your motivation?

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by Hans Off:
quote:
Originally posted by Non-Aquatic Mouse:
If I were the woman in question, I would simply wear a very plain hairband in a uniform-friendly color with a tiny cross embroidered or screen-printed on it. After all, religious headgear's permitted, right?

Nonny

Stepping into your scenario...

I have to ask...

Why? isn't that just shit-stirring?

Or to put it more politley...

To what end? what is your motivation?

It's not shit-stirring, it's what's widely known in certain circles as a compromise. Visible jewelery is forbidden, but a precedent for allowing religious symbols in the form of headgear has already been established. Ergo, goodbye necklace, hello hairband.

It's entirely possible that if she'd thought of that solution in the first place instead of making a huge deal about wearing a cross on a chain she'd still be on the job.

Personally, though, I think some people just like to be martyrs.

Nonny "Unitarian, does not feel need to wear chalice to work" Mouse

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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Mistletoey Chloe
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But it's not that headgear is allowed while necklaces are not, it's that certain religions prescribe the wearing of religious items and therefore need to be accommodated in the uniform requirements. If she belonged to a denomination that teaches that the wearing of visible jewellery is an essential part of her religion, then she would be allowed to wear it. Simply to argue that "they" wear visible signs of their religion and she can't is childish. It's like arguing that a perfectly healthy person should get to use a wheelchair just because her colleague gets to use one, and that's "not fair." She doesn't *need* one.

ETA: And the compromise seems to me to be the equivalent of, "Well, I'll just use crutches, then!"

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
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Perhaps it's the Unitarian in me, Chloe, but to a great extent I believe that what one's religion "requires" is a very personal matter.

After all, the extent to which Islam requires head coverings is largely a matter of personal interpretation with many a Muslim woman happily going without. Meanwhile, it wasn't so long ago historically speaking that Christian women in many parts of the world covered their hair also.

If this woman says that wearing a cross is an essential part of her faith I am not going to try to tell her it isn't.

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

Posts: 10141 | From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Mickey Blue
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:

AS an aside, I now really want to get hold of a shrinky-dink flying spaghetti monster on a chain...

Not "shrinky-dink", but...

http://www.rof.com/product_p/1390-ptg.htm

THat might get ya by.


The only other thing I wanted to touch on that I don't believe that "belief" is a choice in the sense most people use the word. At least not anymore then, say, being gay is a choice. True belief, at least, is simply something that is a part of you, and you can choose to show it or hide it but its something you believe.

Alot of people ask me when or why I decided to be an atheist, and I always start the discussion with "I didn't decide to be an atheist anymore then you decided to be a [incert religion], its more something I came to know about myself and my views on the world and existance".

Now as an atheist, there are no magical rules handed down from some mystical being in the sky.. So I really don't have to worry about things beyond "the principle".. However, for others who truly believe that not wearing certain things could land them in hell, I could see it being much different.


Nobody is telling this woman she cannot wear her cross, only that she cannot wear it over clothing. I have never heard of a sect of Christianity that required a cross, and I certainly have never heard of one that requiered it be worn outside of clothing, so comparing it to religious attire that cannot be hidden and are explicitly required is not a comparison anymore then saying why does that blind guy get to have a dog in the restorant and I don't.

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"All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do"

Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Malruhn said:
BA doesn't want to say that they are a "Christian" company... they are "just" a company... period.

This is why she has to hide her cross.

I just wanted to point out that BA has a dress-code that prohibits visible jewellery. That is the only reason this employee has to disguise her crucifix. The company has never stated that reasoning behind its policy is to disguise religious symbols on the grounds that they might suggest some kind of company "endorsement" of a given religion.

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I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Non-Aquatic Mouse:

If this woman says that wearing a cross is an essential part of her faith I am not going to try to tell her it isn't.

Nonny

I'll tell her it's not. [Big Grin]

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by Friends of Alfred:
Interesting that the quote from the Qu'ran refers to female slaves.

I doubt anybody on the board would defend somebody's right to keep female slaves (who their right posesses no less), just because they are of the Muslim faith.

Because the Qu'ran doesn't require the keeping of slaves or even suggest that the keeping of slaves is the ideal or an end to strive for.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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