snopes.com Post new topic  New Poll  Post a reply
search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello snopes.com » SLC Central » Soapbox Derby » France passes Armenian genocide denial law

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: France passes Armenian genocide denial law
Mosherette
Deck the Malls


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mosherette     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6043730.stm

quote:
The French parliament has adopted a bill making it a crime to deny that Armenians suffered "genocide" at the hands of the Turks, infuriating Turkey. The bill, which provides for a year in jail and a heavy fine, still needs approval from the Senate and president.

Turkey called the decision a "serious blow" to relations with France. It has already threatened economic sanctions. Armenia says Ottoman Turks killed 1.5 million people systematically in 1915 - a claim strongly denied by Turkey.



--------------------
Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave

Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Troberg     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
And that's about effing time! Just about the entire world except Turkey classifies this as a genocide (except former prime minister of israel, Shimon Peres ( http://www.middleeast.org/read.cgi?category=Magazine&num=170&standalone=&month=4&year=2001&function=text )), yet Turkey will not accept it. They should do what Germany has done, plead guilty and do what they can to stop it from happening again.

I'm glad that Turkish recognition of this genocide is a requirement for entry into the EU, but I would also like to see compensation to the victims and their relatives.

Btw, it was not just Armenians, Kurds and Anatolian Greeks were also targeted.

--------------------
/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Little Pink Pill
Little Sales Drummer Boy


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Little Pink Pill     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not fond of laws that forbid the expression of certain opinions, even if they are opinions I personally disagree with. How do I know the next law won't forbid me to be honest about what I believe?

Say it happened like the government says it happened, or else? Nope. Don't like it at all.

--------------------
The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House

Posts: 2684 | From: Budapest | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


Icon 1 posted      Profile for trollface   Author's Homepage   E-mail trollface   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I agree with Little Pink Pill. It's incidental as to whether it's true or not, expressing the opinion shouldn't be illegal.

--------------------
seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dara bhur gCara     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
It's difficult not to be cynical about the reasons the French government have for passing this particular law. I mean, is there a serious problem with people in France running around saying that the Armenian genocide didn't happen? Or that it did happen but it wasn't a genocide? I seriously doubt it; whereas there is still Holocaust denial going on all over Europe.

So then you have to look at it in the context of a) French opposition to the accession of Turkey to the EU, b) a powerful voting bloc of Armenians in France and c) a willingness in the French political elite to pander to the right-wing with anti-Turkish sentiment.


I would prefer it if, instead of demanding Turkey, which incidentally wasn't a country in 1915, but a part of the Ottoman Empire, acknowledge its past misdeeds, France looked more analytically at, off the top of my head, their role in the Rwandan genocide or indeed recognises the various war crimes committed by their troops and French police during the Algerian War of Independence.

This is not to say that the Turkish government shouldn't recognise the Armenian genocide. There is an argument that it wasn't a deliberate genocide, rather a forced deportation, rather more common in those days than this (and at least one participant in this thread is in favour of reviving the tradition of forced deportation in other Middle Eastern countries,) and that comparatively few of the people who died during the Armenian genocide died at the hands of Ottoman troops. But that is a disingenuous argument indeed. There is no denial that mass deaths was a foreseeable consequence of the actions of the Ottoman regime, and responsibility for those deaths therefore lies with that regime.

Moreover, on a purely practical level it does the Turkish government no favours at all to deny that the Armenian genocide took place. They should follow the lead of countries like Britain and France and tacitly acknowledge their colonial atrocities while generally ignoring the consequences and glossing over the scale.

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elkhound         Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Little Pink Pill:
I'm not fond of laws that forbid the expression of certain opinions, even if they are opinions I personally disagree with. How do I know the next law won't forbid me to be honest about what I believe?

Say it happened like the government says it happened, or else? Nope. Don't like it at all.

Indeed. These sort of laws simply drive the deniers into their caves. The best way to counter lies is by the truth. Let the deniers speak their minds--such as they are--and then refute them with facts and logic, revealing them for the idiots that they are.

Freedom of speech and of the press are the two most important clauses of the US Bill of Rights, for without them, the others would be useless.

--------------------
"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dogwater
Happy Holly Days


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dogwater   E-mail Dogwater   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
(Best Foghorn Leghorn impersonation)"Luckily I carry around my own little soapbox for just such an occasion":

These are the types of issues I speak to my 11 yo about when discussing the freedoms of the US as compared to other countries. "I may hate what you are saying, but I will defend your right to say it with my life" -- a cornerstone of what we believe in the US.

--------------------
As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

Posts: 1679 | From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Bug Muldoon
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bug Muldoon   E-mail Bug Muldoon   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I generally support limits on free speech when said speech can do significant harm - like, for instance, holocaust denial, or the antics of men like Phelps - but this goes one step too far. Denial of the Armenian Holocaust is a footnote in French history, it doesn't have significant relevance in France today except as a cynical way to gain votes. I see no pressing reason for outlawing the denial of this event.

I'm confident this law will quickly find itself dragged into Strasbourg for violating Article 10 of the ECHR (that's the First Amendment, Euro-style).

quote:
These are the types of issues I speak to my 11 yo about when discussing the freedoms of the US as compared to other countries. "I may hate what you are saying, but I will defend your right to say it with my life" -- a cornerstone of what we believe in the US.
I daresay that absolute freedom of speech is far less absolute than you'd like to think. You may not have open government censorship, but don't tell me you are truly free - socially, emotionally - to express any opinion.

--------------------
All along the untrodden paths of the future, I can see the footprints of an unseen hand.

Posts: 6912 | From: Flanders | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
keokuk
Deck the Malls


Icon 1 posted      Profile for keokuk     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
quote:
These are the types of issues I speak to my 11 yo about when discussing the freedoms of the US as compared to other countries. "I may hate what you are saying, but I will defend your right to say it with my life" -- a cornerstone of what we believe in the US.
I daresay that absolute freedom of speech is far less absolute than you'd like to think. You may not have open government censorship, but don't tell me you are truly free - socially, emotionally - to express any opinion.
Isn't that true of anyone anywhere though? I would say that as far as degrees go, if you speak in a comparative sense only, the original quote stands pretty true.
Posts: 345 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Mickey Blue
Let There Be PCs on Earth


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mickey Blue     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
I generally support limits on free speech when said speech can do significant harm - like, for instance, holocaust denial, or the antics of men like Phelps - but this goes one step too far. Denial of the Armenian Holocaust is a footnote in French history, it doesn't have significant relevance in France today except as a cynical way to gain votes. I see no pressing reason for outlawing the denial of this event.
I'm willing to limit speech that can do actual harm (harrassment, slander, attempting to start a panic or riot, the old "shout fire in a crowded theater" deal) but I see no reason whatsoever to limit the freedom to say things that can be considered extremely offensive, no matter if it be scum like Phelps, holocaust deniers, or even the president of the USA (or Michael Moore, if you prefer).

quote:
I daresay that absolute freedom of speech is far less absolute than you'd like to think. You may not have open government censorship, but don't tell me you are truly free - socially, emotionally - to express any opinion.
Well, no, you don't, but I believe that striving to be close as possible (with, as I said above, limits where actual harm is being done). In the US at least we have that balance between freedom of speech and peoples "freedom" not to be offended by it.. I personally think this is BS and that we don't have a freedom not to be offended, but a great percentage of the country disagrees and as such we have some limits, but just because we do not have a pure freedom of speech does not mean we should limit it further.

--------------------
"All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do"

Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Pogue Ma-humbug
Happy Christmas (Malls are Open)


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Pogue Ma-humbug   E-mail Pogue Ma-humbug   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
I generally support limits on free speech when said speech can do significant harm ...

Sorry, I don't believe speech can do actual harm. Bad speech can always be countered by good speech.

quote:
I daresay that absolute freedom of speech is far less absolute than you'd like to think.
I agree. Unfortunately, we have limits on free speech here in the United States -- libel laws, for instance.

quote:
You may not have open government censorship, but don't tell me you are truly free - socially, emotionally - to express any opinion.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I may think, for instance, that the British eat Irish children for lunch, but never say it out loud because I fear the reaction. Because I censor myself, is this a limit on free speech?

Pogue

--------------------
Let's drink to the causes in your life:
Your family, your friends, the union, your wife.

Posts: 11325 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
callee
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


Icon 1 posted      Profile for callee         Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
Moreover, on a purely practical level it does the Turkish government no favours at all to deny that the Armenian genocide took place. They should follow the lead of countries like Britain and France and tacitly acknowledge their colonial atrocities while generally ignoring the consequences and glossing over the scale.

This was a fantastic line.

--------------------
a moment for old friends now estranged, victims of the flux of alliances and changing perceptions. There was something there once, and that something is worth honoring as well. - John Carroll

Posts: 3375 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Troberg     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
One small addition to my previous comment. I misread the article. I thought it was about official recognition of the genocide.

Of course it should be legal to question what happened. Something that can not be questioned can not be tested, and passing tests makes it stronger.

--------------------
/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post new topic  New Poll  Post a reply Close topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Urban Legends Reference Pages

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2