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Author Topic: Pope Set to Bring back Latin Mass
AdmiralDinty
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Boo-Yaw!

quote:
THE Pope is taking steps to revive the ancient tradition of the Latin Tridentine Mass in Catholic churches worldwide, according to sources in Rome.
Pope Benedict XVI is understood to have signed a universal indult — or permission — for priests to celebrate again the Mass used throughout the Church for nearly 1,500 years. The indult could be published in the next few weeks, sources told The Times.



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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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The Tridentine Mass?

What about those of us with four or more teeth? [Mad]

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I'mNotDedalus
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Nicely done, Chloe.

As for the story...well, Joseph Campbell would be pleased. Luther might’ve not.

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Is Benedict kept awake nights tossing and turning over the horror that was Vatican II I wonder?

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FireSpook
The First USA Noel


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I don't know, It'd be nice to learn latin.

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Page Three
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That crushes my hopes of ever hearing the Vatican Rag in a church... [Frown] Especially because there's a brilliant, brilliant translation into German that the Pope might appreciate. [Big Grin]

Page "everybody say his own Kyrie Eleison" Three

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Doug4.7
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I don't know what the big deal is about the Latin Mass. I remember as a kid going to those Masses and you had no idea what was going on. They had the stupid bells (with markers in the little book) to help you figure out where things were.

When it is in your local language, at least you can TRY to understand and appreciate what the prayers are about. Otherwise, it is all just a bunch of hocus pocus where you zone out for an hour or so.

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pob14
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I've been to several Latin Masses that weren't Tridentine. Parishes are allowed, and even encouraged, to celebrate the 1962 Rite in Latin.

quote:
The new indult would permit any priest to introduce the Tridentine Mass to his church, anywhere in the world, unless his bishop has explicitly forbidden it in writing.
I'm guessing the American bishops will forbid it, just to keep the confusion to a minimum.

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Patrick

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Ariadne
Deck the Malls


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Yay, Latin! I'm an atheist, but I'd go to Latin Mass just to hear it (even though the pronunciation is wrong).

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saxea ut effigies bacchantis prospicit eheu | prospicit et magnis curarum fluctuat undis
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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm, Shogun:
I don't know, It'd be nice to learn latin.

No one ever learned latin by going to mass once a week. Or was prevented from learning it when the latin mass was discontinued for that matter!

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Dreams of Thinking Machines
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariadne:
Yay, Latin! I'm an atheist, but I'd go to Latin Mass just to hear it (even though the pronunciation is wrong).

Is it even possible to speak latin with the proper pronunciation (unless you lived 2000 years ago)?

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Pogue Ma-humbug
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
I don't know what the big deal is about the Latin Mass. I remember as a kid going to those Masses and you had no idea what was going on. They had the stupid bells (with markers in the little book) to help you figure out where things were.

As an altar boy way back when, I was the guy who rang those bells. And I knew the Latin translations of all the parts of the Mass. Indeed, I remember having to take a test to both read and speak the Latin phrases before I could be an altar boy -- and that was in second or third grade.

Pogue

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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The FSSPX must be doing quite well.

ETA: Introibo ad altare Dei.

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Ariadne
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quote:
Originally posted by dreams of thinking machines:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariadne:
Yay, Latin! I'm an atheist, but I'd go to Latin Mass just to hear it (even though the pronunciation is wrong).

Is it even possible to speak latin with the proper pronunciation (unless you lived 2000 years ago)?
Well, technically no, but we can come pretty close to ancient pronunciation based on ancient writing which references proper speaking. The Catholic church's Latin is pronounced like Italian (I think this is Medieval pronunciation).

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Mahone:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
I don't know what the big deal is about the Latin Mass. I remember as a kid going to those Masses and you had no idea what was going on. They had the stupid bells (with markers in the little book) to help you figure out where things were.

As an altar boy way back when, I was the guy who rang those bells. And I knew the Latin translations of all the parts of the Mass. Indeed, I remember having to take a test to both read and speak the Latin phrases before I could be an altar boy -- and that was in second or third grade.
That's precisely how it used to be. The priest, deacons and altar boys were the "participants" - this group would include the "responders", while the rest of the faithful were merely "observers".

Part of the Tridentine mass is, if I remember correctly, that the priest faces the altar, rather than the faithful. This really isolates them, in my opinion, from what is actually happening. You aren't participating - just watching.

Big step backwards, in my humble opinion.

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Ms. Kringle
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Oh yay.

Not only do I not know Latin well enough to be able to participate in Mass, I don't like Mass that there is no participation on the part of the congregant.

Somehow, I don't think this is going to go over with a lot of the American bishops concerned about not having enough butts in pews as it is. I can't imagine that most American Catholic churches will switch back to the Latin Tridentine Mass, except for those who are hardliners.

Ms. 'there are fundamentalists everywhere' K

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AdmiralDinty
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
ETA: Introibo ad altare Dei.

Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam.

Folks, don't get yourselves in a twist over this. The point of the universal indult is just to allow parishes to have the option to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. Currently, they can be celebrated, but only with an indult from the local ordinary (aka bishop) per the motu proprio "Ecclesia Dei".

Someone mentioned that this is a step backwards from Vatican II. The fact of the matter is, Vatican II did not abolish Latin, and in fact, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy "Sacrosanctam Concilium" acknowledges that Latin is the language of the Church and should be given pride of place in the liturgy.

Being an amature Latinist, and a fan of the Tridentine rite, I am quite pleased by this development.

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Magdalene
Happy Holly Days


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My dad's anecdote (yeah yeah yeah....anecdote is not data, I get it...)

My dad was sent to Vietnam a bit before Vatican II, and wound up going to a church off-base (he admits this may not have been the brightest thing he did over there). Since mass was in Latin, language wasn't a problem--he could still follow along to what was being said, and he remembered feeling comforted that he could be dropped anywhere in the world, and the Church would still be there. He's one of the ones furious that mass is no longer in Latin, so I imagine he's liking this possibility.

Side note--my dad went to Catholic schools where Latin was a required course. He still remembers most of his. He was also an altar boy, and from what I've been given to understand, he and his cousin/best friend must've been the altar boys from hell. The priest kicked them out several times, and up until they were both in their 40's the priest *still* wanted them to sit in a pew where, "I can keep an eye on you two." We never did find out what they did (they won't say), but they have both muttered, "He's a priest, you'd think he'd do the whole forgive and forget thing by now...."

Magdalene

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pob14
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Magdalene:
He's one of the ones furious that mass is no longer in Latin, so I imagine he's liking this possibility.

Refer him to this site. They try to keep an updated list of Latin masses. Maybe he'll be less furious when he finds out, as has been pointed out several times on this thread, that you can, in fact, find Latin masses right now. He might even want to become a member.

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Patrick

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by pob14:
quote:
Originally posted by Magdalene:
He's one of the ones furious that mass is no longer in Latin, so I imagine he's liking this possibility.

Refer him to this site. They try to keep an updated list of Latin masses. Maybe he'll be less furious when he finds out, as has been pointed out several times on this thread, that you can, in fact, find Latin masses right now. He might even want to become a member.
Since most parishes have two or three masses every Sunday, wouldn't a more likely scenario be that one mass would be in Latin and all the others in the vernacular? (Or vice versa.)

As an Episcopalian, we have a similar situation with the Rite I (Elizabethan English) vs. Rite II (Contemporary English). In most parishes, the early service is Rite I, while the late service is Rite II.

Also, in very Anglo-Catholic Episcopal parishes, one often hears the Ordinary of the Mass sung in Latin (Kyrie-Gloria-Sanctus/Benedictus-Agnus Dei) with the prayers and scripture lessons in English. Is this option allowed in the RCC?

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AdmiralDinty
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
Also, in very Anglo-Catholic Episcopal parishes, one often hears the Ordinary of the Mass sung in Latin (Kyrie-Gloria-Sanctus/Benedictus-Agnus Dei) with the prayers and scripture lessons in English. Is this option allowed in the RCC?

In a word, yes. The usual situation (especially during Advent and Lent) is that the Agnus Dei is sung in Latin.

I should also point out that Latin can still be used in the Novus Ordo Mass, both in the parts that you mentioned and for the entire Liturgy of the Eucharist (as opposed to the Liturgy of the Word - readings and sermon).

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Nick Theodorakis
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
...
Also, in very Anglo-Catholic Episcopal parishes, one often hears the Ordinary of the Mass sung in Latin (Kyrie-Gloria-Sanctus/Benedictus-Agnus Dei) ...

Latin except for the "Kyrie eleison" part, that is [Wink]

Nick

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snapdragonfly
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quote:
Originally posted by Page Three:
That crushes my hopes of ever hearing the Vatican Rag in a church... [Frown] Especially because there's a brilliant, brilliant translation into German that the Pope might appreciate. [Big Grin]

Page "everybody say his own Kyrie Eleison" Three

OMG!!! I love that song!! It's on my favorites in my Windows Media Player...

"when in Rome do like a Roman, make a cross on your abdomen..." heehehe.

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDinty:
Currently, they can be celebrated, but only with an indult from the local ordinary (aka bishop) per the motu proprio "Ecclesia Dei".

That is, of course, assuming that the local ordinary isn't hostile to the Tridentine Mass.

A universal indult would get around a bishop who doesn't want to give permission (but not those hostile enough to go to the trouble of banning it).

quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDinty:
Someone mentioned that this is a step backwards from Vatican II. The fact of the matter is, Vatican II did not abolish Latin, and in fact, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy "Sacrosanctam Concilium" acknowledges that Latin is the language of the Church and should be given pride of place in the liturgy.

Here's the quote from Sacrosanctam Concilium:

quote:
36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
There's also a passage giving Gregorian Chant "pride of place".


I spoke to a Vatican observer last about this -- apparently there's a new document on the Eucharist scheduled to be released next month and the people at the Vatican are getting this document confused with a new indult. This happens frequently.

He also told me that the recent synod didn't cover issues relating to the mass.

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
Since most parishes have two or three masses every Sunday, wouldn't a more likely scenario be that one mass would be in Latin and all the others in the vernacular? (Or vice versa.)

What happens now is that (often dependent upon how big the FSSPX and other Traditionalist groups are in the diocese) is that the bishop gives permission for one mass a month in the Tridentine liturgy, one Tridentine mass a week, or establishes a Tridentine parish.

quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
Also, in very Anglo-Catholic Episcopal parishes, one often hears the Ordinary of the Mass sung in Latin (Kyrie-Gloria-Sanctus/Benedictus-Agnus Dei) with the prayers and scripture lessons in English. Is this option allowed in the RCC?

Some people believe that was the original intention of the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council.

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