posted
Here is my memorial to 9/11. Feel free to add to the memorial with your poem or whatever.
TOWERS OF LIGHT
I feel that if a war came to threaten this, I would like to throw myself into space, over the city, and protect these buildings with my body. --Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead
The thousand dollar xenon lights all sat There waiting for the orphaned twelve-year-old Girl to begin the ceremony that Her murdered parent lingers to behold. The switch is thrown by Valerie--her right. The phantom towers rise, the symbol of Our Love, the world’s most brilliant shafts of light, Like spirits, try to touch the stars above. The worst attack in years on our land Has murdered them all. We are their begotten Children here at this ceremony and Three thousand souls will never be forgotten, The office workers, firemen, and police. Three thousand souls will never rest in peace!
-------------------- Thomas Newton Conservative Poet Posts: 84 | From: Winter Springs, FL | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Could someone please explain to me what the purpose of a memorial like this is? It seems to be dwelling on death tolls and trying to serve as a call for action to go kill other people. Does wallowing in despair and hate really serve to make one a better person?
Consider this in a historical context. During Pearl Harbor many people felt the same way. What happened? Throwing people in concentration camps, unleashing nuclear weapons... I think a consensus would be that it inspired us to go too far. But, then the Chinese and Koreans are very grateful for it, for the Japanese had let themselves go too far as well.
Within five years, however, everything was forgiven and forgotten. American poured money into rebuilding Japan, if only out of the fear of the Soviets doing it. When it was all over the Japanese became quite a bit more American and then turned around and got to work as an ally. Cheesy Japanese movies and little boobles were about all that came in the 1950s and 1960s, but Americans still love Godzilla. By the 1970s they took American ideas and improved upon them, churning out electronics and mechanics that American firms seem to refuse to try to sincerely compete with. They more than repaid their debt, sending us money constantly to keep our budget afloat by the 1980s. Through the 1990s, Japanese video games, anime and sushi became more and more part of the mainstream. It seems this relationship just continues to snowball, especially out here in CA... 65 years after that attack it really seem ludicrous to believe that allowing Japan to have a military would result in another Pearl Harbor. In fact, giving them a military would result in having more people to support our military campaigns...
If America hadn't forgiven and forgotten, had continued to sincerely wallow and dwell on a singe surprise attack and those killed there... we would be much worse off than we are. Besides that we have yet to apprehend the man actually responsible for the attacks, what is the meaningful difference here? Does it have to do with Islamic fundamentalists competing with Christian fundamentalists for attention from the same god as opposed to Buhdists and Shintoists who do their own thing? Or does it just have to do with the empty feeling of not really having the satisfaction of a true victory or surrender?
Posts: 411 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Opiuchus, I hope you don't mind, but I've quoted you in my blog. Thank you. You said it much better than I could.
LMS...
-------------------- Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride! Posts: 2924 | From: Flori-duh | Registered: Oct 2001
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The purpose is the same as any memorial for any tragedy: rememberance and reflection, and respect for those innocents who were murdered that day.
Firstly, Ophiuchus, are you seriously comparing the al-Qaeda terrorists to the 1940's Empire of Japan? I scarcely know where to begin. And your implied assumption that everything will turn out okay now just because it did between us and Japan half a century ago is a little bit naive.
I fail to see how people are dwelling on the past when they take time to remember an awful tragedy that killed so many and ruined the lives of so many more.
Wonko "It doesn't matter, it's in de past" the Sane
-------------------- "It seemed to me that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include detailed instructions for use in a package of toothpicks, was no longer a civilzation in which I could live and stay sane." Posts: 1462 | From: Outside the Asylum (Massachusetts) | Registered: Jul 2003
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later
posted
quote:Originally posted by Thomas Newton: Three thousand souls will never rest in peace!
What's that supposed to mean, exactly? It seems to suggest that the victims of the 9/11 attacks are in some way eternally damned, which I think is wildly inappropriate and would, I imagine, cause extraordinary pain and hurt to the families of the victims.
Perhaps you should rephrase it?
-------------------- This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down. Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Maybe this should be in the Glurge section. It would seem to fit better.
I can't say that I'm impressed with his other works either, especially the one on immigration. I can play a mean Air Guitar, but I don't dare call myself a musician.
-------------------- "I believe you believe that, but I just think you're confused." Posts: 311 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Thomas Newton: Three thousand souls will never rest in peace!
What's that supposed to mean, exactly? It seems to suggest that the victims of the 9/11 attacks are in some way eternally damned, which I think is wildly inappropriate and would, I imagine, cause extraordinary pain and hurt to the families of the victims.
Perhaps you should rephrase it?
I read it to mean that he believes that the 3000 souls are not resting in peace because they have not yet been sufficiently avenged, i.e. bush still needs to nuke some arabs or something. that's just my take, though.
-------------------- a moment for old friends now estranged, victims of the flux of alliances and changing perceptions. There was something there once, and that something is worth honoring as well. - John Carroll Posts: 3375 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I'm always reminded of the character Toby from an episode of the West Wing.
Toby: "Kill 'em all." High school kid: "All the Islamic extremists?" Toby: "No, no, I mean everyone. You're all bothering me. I want to be left alone. Clearly the only way that's going to happen is to be alone, so I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to let you all go...except the Yankees and the Knicks. and the Yankees and the Knicks are going to need someone to play, so keep the Red Sox and the Lakers, and the Laker Girls, and the Palm, and we'll need to keep the people who work at the Palm. That's it, though: the Yankees, the Red Sox, the Knicks, the Lakers, the Laker Girls, and anyone who works at the Palm. Sports, Laker Girls, and a well-prepared steak. That's all I need. Sometimes I like to mix it up with Italian... Chinese... all right, you can all stay, but don't bug me. You're on probation. Don't forget: I was this close to banishing you."
...later on...
Toby: "A friend of my dad's who was at the [Nazi concentration] camps, he used to come over to the house and he and my dad used to shoot some pinochle. He said he once saw a guy at the camp kneeling and praying. He said, 'What are you doing?' Guy said he was thanking God. And my dad's friend said, 'What could you possibly be thanking God for?' He said, 'I'm thanking God for not making me like them.' Bad people can't be recognized on sight. There's no point in trying." Josh: "Actually, we already covered that." Toby: "It's worth covering twice, don't you agree?" High school kid: "Pinochle's a card game?" Toby: "Yeah, I've changed my mind again, kill 'em all." Josh: "Laker girls." Toby: "No... all right."
-------------------- "Tis too much proved that with devotion's visage and pious action we do sugar o'er the devil himself." - Hamlet Posts: 344 | From: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by WonkoTheSane: Firstly, Ophiuchus, are you seriously comparing the al-Qaeda terrorists to the 1940's Empire of Japan? I scarcely know where to begin. And your implied assumption that everything will turn out okay now just because it did between us and Japan half a century ago is a little bit naive.
I am. If there is a meaningful difference, please explain it. Also, do well to keep in mind that what you know about the Islamic Extremists is what we know RIGHT NOW. Which means it is only fair to compare it to what we knew about Japan in 1940, not what we know in retrospect. So to be fair you MUST use WWII propaganda pictures of Japanese to use as your comparison, not some naustalgic stories of samurai and honor that came well after 1940, even if those things are closer to reality.
I could also compare it to England, the Native Americans, Spain, Germany, Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Russia, etc. It is simply that Japan is the only one to perform a successful hit upon America. In all these cases the same basic things were said about the 'enemy'. They were indescribably evil, hated freedom, wanted to kill/rape/tyranically rule everyone and anyone who did not go to war with them and kill as many as possible was a traitorous appeaser who should be lynched or at least thrown out of the country... The only case amongst these the only one that didn't end up pretty amicably after some years had passed after the end of the war was Korea. Otherwise?... It seems it was better NOT to engage in an endless war of vengance.
So, please. Explain the real reason why WWII propaganda Japanese were so drastically different than the current Islamic terrorists that the comparison doesn't hold up.
Because really, that first poem, which reflects most 'memorials', reads far more like and indignant call for bloody vengance than any kind of respectful memorial to those who died. (In fact one line very much reads as those who died were damned.) Find me a memorial that doesn't carry angry, vengeful, hateful overtones. And on your way to trying to dig one up make note of all those that do carry that sentiment. I think you'll soon learn what a 'memorial' of that kind really amounts to and be more willing to understand what I am saying.
Posts: 411 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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-------------------- "I believe you believe that, but I just think you're confused." Posts: 311 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Jan 2006
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later
posted
quote:Originally posted by callee:
quote:Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
quote:Originally posted by Thomas Newton: Three thousand souls will never rest in peace!
What's that supposed to mean, exactly? It seems to suggest that the victims of the 9/11 attacks are in some way eternally damned, which I think is wildly inappropriate and would, I imagine, cause extraordinary pain and hurt to the families of the victims.
Perhaps you should rephrase it?
I read it to mean that he believes that the 3000 souls are not resting in peace because they have not yet been sufficiently avenged, i.e. bush still needs to nuke some arabs or something. that's just my take, though.
I had considered that as an interpretation, but 'will never' seems to suggest that, no matter what happens, no matter how many Middle Eastern countries the US invade, say, the souls of the victims will not rest easy. That's just not on, I'm afraid.
-------------------- This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down. Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Chloe: I wonder what the souls of the tens of thousands of civilian dead are up to?
Well, unless they were Christians, they're swimming in a lake of fire right about now. You'd think it would be obvious!
and again for good measure!
-------------------- "I believe you believe that, but I just think you're confused." Posts: 311 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chloe: I wonder what the souls of the tens of thousands of civilian dead are up to?
Resting peacefully one would presume. After all, they were killed in the name of justice.
-------------------- In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte Posts: 1801 | From: The Forest City, Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Chloe: I wonder what the souls of the tens of thousands of civilian dead are up to?
I assume you mean the Iraqi dead. In which case it doesn't matter. Since they didn't have the foresight to be born American*, we don't care about them.
When will you bleeding-heart liberals learn that Americans are always right and so everthing we do is correct? So everything anyone else does is automatically wrong unless they do it just like we do.
*Or naturalized American, although they don't count if they insist on still speaking their ferin language.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by GenYus: When will you bleeding-heart liberals learn that Americans are always right and so everthing we do is correct? So everything anyone else does is automatically wrong unless they do it just like we do.
Ha, those gosh-durned liberals can't think that's why the keep voting for the Gore feller.
-------------------- In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte Posts: 1801 | From: The Forest City, Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Al Gore said he rewrote all the rules and then lost them.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I think we recycled it. But Fox News makes sure to list all of the rules during their fair and unbiased news coverage.
If we just watch O'Reiley, we should be able to get all of the rules together.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Chloe: I wonder what the souls of the tens of thousands of civilian dead are up to?
Well, unless they were Christians, they're swimming in a lake of fire right about now. You'd think it would be obvious!
and again for good measure!
Oh, great, now I have the Meat Puppets running through my head. I mean, the Meat Puppets song "Lake Of Fire"
Because having the Meat Puppets running through my head would hurt.
Meat Puppets? Can't say as I heard of 'em.
However, they sound like liberal commies...and they probably hate freedom and baby Jesus.
-------------------- "I believe you believe that, but I just think you're confused." Posts: 311 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Jan 2006
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-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
3) As long as you say you're not a Republican or a conservative, it proves your argument is objective and based solely on facts.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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posted
4) Anyone who disagrees with you hates America and wants the terrorists to win.
Posts: 763 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2005
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later
posted
5) Clinton had fellatio performed upon him in the Oval Office. This is the worst thing any president has ever done.
-------------------- This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down. Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
6) Cutting someone's mic is an appropriate debate tactic.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Chloe: I wonder what the souls of the tens of thousands of civilian dead are up to?
Please don't smack me, I know this response is inapporpriate...but...
Playing poker?
-------------------- 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. That is when the world will end. Posts: 7158 | From: D.C. | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ophiuchus: Within five years, however, everything was forgiven and forgotten.
One might note that Japan had been crushed within five years of Pearl Harbor and it was only then that the process of mending fences begin.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
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-------------------- In politics, absurdity is not a handicap - Napoleon Bonaparte Posts: 1801 | From: The Forest City, Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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-------------------- "I believe you believe that, but I just think you're confused." Posts: 311 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Jan 2006
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-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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Before this thread goes any further, does anyone else have a 9/11 memorial message to post?
-------------------- "I believe you believe that, but I just think you're confused." Posts: 311 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I wish I did. But the memory of that day is just too painful for me to be creative in remembering it. I will say I was touched by seeing everyone decked out in red, white and blue later that week. For a very, very short time, patriotism belonged to all Americans, not just the ones to the right of John Ashcroft. I miss that.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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posted
What he said. I don't have anything to add, except to say that I watched some of CNN's stream this morning, but had to turn it off, as it was too much for me. It's still too sad (but then I cried earlier this year reading accounts of the massacres of 1096, so maybe it will just always be too sad).
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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