Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Seeing as how the various "alternative" theories regarding the events are growing in popularity, I figured its time to see where we all stand.
ETA: Thank you to whichever admin/mod deleted my duplicate post, and I apologize to those who voted and commented in the first thread before it got deleted.
Poll Information
This poll contains 2 question(s). 162 user(s) have voted. You may not view the results of this poll without voting.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
What prompted this Joe? I see College Freshman has already expounded on his conspiracy theory in your duplicate post. Perhaps he could post some cites?
-------------------- Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish Posts: 2036 | From: Virginia | Registered: Jul 2002
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-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
No real reason RangerDog, I'm just seeing the various bullsh... er I mean alternative 9/11 theories gaining some degree of... well acceptances isn't the right term but popularity comes close.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by Christie: I'm glad you were able to change it!
You know sadly I don't think I've ever been able to get a poll right on the first try.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Christie: I'm glad you were able to change it!
You know sadly I don't think I've ever been able to get a poll right on the first try.
The only time I tried one I stunk it up so badly I've never tried again .
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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-------------------- Where I come from we believe all sorts of things that aren't true. We call it History. Posts: 506 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Oct 2005
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I'd say it's possible because the John P. O'Neill guy was an Al-queda expert. But that's just my view, I could be wrong. The point is we should've remedied it by hunting for Osama and coming up with a good international security policy rather than headin into Iraq, but that's another topic entirely
-------------------- "High-Five!" - Borat Posts: 1056 | From: Racine, WI | Registered: Jun 2006
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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by eif: The conspiracy is none that you listed. The conspiracy is what the administration did after 9/11.
Well yeah that's a valid, arguable position but I don't think innappropriate actions after an event can really qualify as a "conspiracy." I think for something to qualify as a conspriacy it has to involve some sort of prior planning that is kept from the general public.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
By 'knew about it' do you mean, "Information had come to their attention such that the events of 9/11 were actively predicted with a fair degree of acuracy." or at "Sufficent information had been gathered by the inteligence services that 9/11 may have been reasonably predicted, but that the intelligence services failed to succesfully predict the event, or assigned it a probability low enough that it was felt wise to prioritise of other leads."
While I wouldn't give any credit to the first, the latter is a theory I wouldn't outright dismiss.
I know that my Mum believes that flight 93 was shot down. In my mind though I think not only would this have been openly declared, but that it would have been difficult to conceal and obvious from the wreckage.
Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Well anyone who's ever worked in the intelligence, law enforcement, or military communities is well aware of the vast number of intelligence reports and warnings which come out daily, 99% of which never amount to anything.
By "prior knowledge" I'm not talking about an intelligence failure, I'm talking something much more deliberate.
I'm sure they are countless reports that in hindsight point to 9/11 or a 9/11 style attack. That's not what I'm talking about.
By "prior knowledge" I mean something a little more concrete then the mere possibility of a 9/11 style attack and that the knowledge was deliberately withheld from either the public or other parts of the government for a specific reason, whatever that reason might have been.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:The events of 9/11 were terrorist attacks carried out by a Al Qaida without the prior knowledge and without participation of the United States government.
I would say:
The events of 9/11 were terrorist attacks carried out by Islamist militants (hey, I'm done fighting over the T-word) without the prior knowledge, and without participation, of the United States government.
Coerced interviews with captured Islamic militants, and a claim of credit, have seemingly confirmed the hypothesis that the 9/11 chain of command extended up to Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. However, attempts to confirm these statements with physical evidence, such as traced sources of funding for the operation, have either failed or, less likely, not been made public.
Significance of the the above? Well, one of these decades, hopefully after I'm gone, there's going to a be a nuclear attack on a Western country, and, if the attacker is competent, the attacker will not have left a clear return address. Then we have to figure out what to do. 9/11 is our chance for practice, and we'll learn more from the practice if we are as clear as possible as to the unknowns.
There is an article in the current issue of Foreign Affairs on some of this that I am looking forward to reading -- here's a preview.
-------------------- "Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?" Julius Lester Posts: 5780 | From: Suburban Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
When someone profits as much from a murder (mass or otherwise) as the Bush administration has profited from September 11th, there should be some suspicion that they were at least complicit. During any murder investigation, the police will probably investigate anyone who seems to have motive to commit the crime.
I'm not saying that I believe the government perpetrated the attacks, but I have a pretty easy time imagining that they knew they would happen and allowed them. I think every possibility should be investigated.
-------------------- ÒIf you shut up truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will blow up everything in its way.Ó -Emile Zola Posts: 1046 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by abigsmurf: wow I'm the only person who though flight 93 was shot down...
If it's any consolation, I think they would have if it hadn't crashed.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I've also read that the spread of debris (it was carrying letters or something and they were spread for too wide for a ground collision) indicated a mid air explosion.
The tapes and the debris both suggest the plane had an explosion on board. Yes it could've been the hijackers bomb but then, why didn't the US government say so? It didn't really matter if the plane hit the ground or exploded in mid air... Unless they didn't want people looking into the explosion too much.
Other things bug me too, even an normal person would try an pull up on flight controls if the plane was diving yet there was no attempt made to pull up, despite the passengers apparently overcoming the terrorists.
My last point it going to make me sound like a heartless bastard but it does reflect my views. The whole "they were heroes" thing reeks of propoganda. "you're saying that the events didn't unfold as we said? Are you questioning these brave actions of the people who were killed? Would you like to tell that to their families?"
I know people probably have countless sources debunking these but I can't help what I believe based on what is known.
Posts: 824 | From: England | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I just finished reading Timothy Naftali's book Blind Spot about the history of the US's counterterrorism efforts since WWII.
He does a decent job showing how the potential was there for knowing that an attack was going to occur, but due to arcane rules on defining terrorists, inability to produce a warrant for Mossaui's computer, and less than clear channels for information, all the NSA had was vague rumblings of an attack. This was mentioned in the PDB a month before the attack. But that was the limit of knowledge at the coordinating level.
I think the attacks occurred as the 9/11 report has stated, but that certain elements have used the facts to their advantage (ie heroes on Flight 93).
Posts: 2064 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Trowa: When someone profits as much from a murder (mass or otherwise) as the Bush administration has profited from September 11th,
Cite. Can you show where Bush or anyone has profited unduly from September 11th? And please do not dance on the lame horse excuse of Halliburton.
Posts: 4580 | From: Walnut Creek, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by abigsmurf: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/f93bomb.html
"The Real History The Government Doesn't WANT You to Learn." Well they're powerful enough to take down planes and crap, why can't they hack a website with a really obvious address to keep the "truth" from getting out?
quote:The tapes and the debris both suggest the plane had an explosion on board. Yes it could've been the hijackers bomb but then, why didn't the US government say so?
So is that why it hit the ground nose first and made a gigantic impact crater? Because it exploded mid-air?
quote:It didn't really matter if the plane hit the ground or exploded in mid air... Unless they didn't want people looking into the explosion too much.
Nice false lead - it's almost like the magician leading the audience with his hand to look away from the hat he's dropping the rabbit into.
quote:Other things bug me too, even an normal person would try an pull up on flight controls if the plane was diving yet there was no attempt made to pull up, despite the passengers apparently overcoming the terrorists.
[qb] A normal person wouldn't know how to pilot a commercial aircraft, no matter how many movies claim they do. That's assuming they survived to get to the controls - the passengers were unarmed, the hijackers were not, and we know there was a fight in the cockpit. This would indicate that there was no one flying the plane.
quote:[qb]My last point it going to make me sound like a heartless bastard but it does reflect my views. The whole "they were heroes" thing reeks of propoganda. "you're saying that the events didn't unfold as we said? Are you questioning these brave actions of the people who were killed? Would you like to tell that to their families?"
And it has been used as propoganda. But the problem with your story is the evidence pointing to what happened on board. There *was* a passenger struggle on that plane. We know because of the black box, we know because of calls made from the plane by the passengers to civilians, some of whom were more than capable of recording the calls. For example, Todd Beamer placed his call with a credit card and wound up talking to customer service.
quote:I know people probably have countless sources debunking these but I can't help what I believe based on what is known.
If you know people have sources that can prove you wrong, then why not believe them? Believing in a fallacy out of pride is hardly constructive to searching for the truth.
-------------------- "One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings." -- Diogenes
"Vote Republican! We won't burn you at the stake for your religious beliefs or slaughter your family and steal your land." -- Ramblin' Dave Posts: 3555 | From: Florida | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I've never understood why people (some people I should say) are so quick to dismiss the possibility that the passengers on Flight 93 at least tried to take over the plane. These were people who had found out about what had happened to the other planes, they knew they were going to die if they didn't try something. I am the least brave person you could probably ever hope to meet but I can assure you if I knew I was about to die I'd be damned if I didn't try to put up a fight.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
I don't doubt for a moment that people at every level of our society have benefited, both intentionally and coincidentally, from the events of 9/11.
But honestly people the idea that a large percentage of people high up in government would purposely let 3,000+ people die in order to advance some vague political goal and countless others would either actively hide or passively ignore this plot from the general public is... extreme paranoia. Honestly people this is tin-foil hat level easily.
Bush might be a lot of things, but he's not a mustache twirling Bond villian. Even if we accept that one person on the upper echelon's of the government would stoop to such an act, much less the many it would really take to pull off such an act, it certainly doesn't seem like it worked for him. The post-9/11 hasn't exactly made Bush popular.
I have a hard time buying the Bush is some sort of comic-book level supervillian able to orchestrate such a plot or hide such a plot from a wired world full of real time news and the internet, yet who after the fact is too stupid to read an opinion poll and keeps doggidly moving forward doing the same things that are causing his popularity to plummet.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Bentley: I don't doubt for a moment that people at every level of our society have benefited, both intentionally and coincidentally, from the events of 9/11.
But honestly people the idea that a large percentage of people high up in government would purposely let 3,000+ people die in order to advance some vague political goal and countless others would either actively hide or passively ignore this plot from the general public is... extreme paranoia. Honestly people this is tin-foil hat level easily.
Bush might be a lot of things, but he's not a mustache twirling Bond villian. Even if we accept that one person on the upper echelon's of the government would stoop to such an act, much less the many it would really take to pull off such an act, it certainly doesn't seem like it worked for him. The post-9/11 hasn't exactly made Bush popular.
I have a hard time buying the Bush is some sort of comic-book level supervillian able to orchestrate such a plot or hide such a plot from a wired world full of real time news and the internet, yet who after the fact is too stupid to read an opinion poll and keeps doggidly moving forward doing the same things that are causing his popularity to plummet.
I'm not one of the people who thinks Bush started it all, I was just saying it just may be possible that the Bin Laden expert may've warned them about something like this, but dismissed it.
-------------------- "High-Five!" - Borat Posts: 1056 | From: Racine, WI | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I love Randi Rhodes, and she did a whole show about 9/11 foreknowledge a few weeks back. None of it was new to me, but one thing she mentioned was a British reporter who had indicated that the impending attacks were an "open secret" in certain communities in the US. I think that it's impossible to determine which from where I'm standing, but either this administration was impossibly, unbelievably inept, or they knew and did nothing.
As for how the government has benefitted from that event, first and foremost, they had free run to curb or civil liberties for a few years- Patriot Act, anyone? They invaded Iraq for no reason, because Americans were too scared and confused to protest. A lot of their billionaire buddies are double and triple billing taxpayers for substandard services while our soldiers lack body armor.
Why do you think criticizing Halliburton is beating a dead horse? Why do they keep getting no bid contracts? Fact remains, they've made a killing off this war.
-------------------- My great grandfather planted that tree! Posts: 4862 | From: Brooklyn | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Trowa: When someone profits as much from a murder (mass or otherwise) as the Bush administration has profited from September 11th,
Cite. Can you show where Bush or anyone has profited unduly from September 11th? And please do not dance on the lame horse excuse of Halliburton.
I didn't have Halliburton in mind, but really, that's not a bad argument.
I meant the fear it enabled the Bush administration to cultivate, allowing the Iraq war (I don't mention the one in Afghanistan because it was a perfectly justified response), indefinite detention of prisoners at Guantanamo, silencing of protesters, and domestic spying, to give only a few examples.
All the government needs to do is label someone a terrorist threat and then they basically have free reign in spying on them and abusing their rights. Just ask Caitlin Childs.
Congress was cowed into passing the Patriot Act, the courts have been cowed into dropping almost every domestic spying lawsuit against the federal government for spurious reasons of national security, and the people have been cowed into accepting and even supporting the erosion of their civil liberties.
Bush mentions September 11th every time he wants support for something. Even if his administration is completely innocent regarding the attacks, they certainly aren't above using it as a cheap PR boost.
The fastest way to control people is to make them afraid. There is certainly historical precedent for a government allowing or even perpetrating an attack against its own people in order to increase their power.
I'm not saying that it's true, or even likely, but it's dangerous to dismiss such claims before looking into them.
-------------------- ÒIf you shut up truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will blow up everything in its way.Ó -Emile Zola Posts: 1046 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2002
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I meant the fear it enabled the Bush administration to cultivate, allowing the Iraq war (I don't mention the one in Afghanistan because it was a perfectly justified response)
If Bush knew about 9/11 then I'd have trouble calling the war in Afghanistan justified. I don't get how you could consider it justified if you're under the suspicion that he knew beforehand, to be honest.
Posts: 1699 | From: New York | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
If Bush knew about 9/11 before the fact I have a hard time believing he would have sat in that classroom for as long as he did looking like a stunned idiot. Surely he'd have had time to prepare an "in control President leaping into action" scenario that he would have followed?
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Joe, I'll need the records of who voted for the conspiracy theories. After I sieze power, it will be important information for the Great 'Dee Dee Dee' Hunt.
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Bentley: Bush might be a lot of things, but he's not a mustache twirling Bond villian. Even if we accept that one person on the upper echelon's of the government would stoop to such an act, much less the many it would really take to pull off such an act, it certainly doesn't seem like it worked for him. The post-9/11 hasn't exactly made Bush popular.
I have a hard time buying the Bush is some sort of comic-book level supervillian able to orchestrate such a plot or hide such a plot from a wired world full of real time news and the internet, yet who after the fact is too stupid to read an opinion poll and keeps doggidly moving forward doing the same things that are causing his popularity to plummet.
I agree Joe. There's a local radio talk-show guy here or refers to 'The Secret Too Big To Keep'. Things like the Kennedy Assassination, supposed faking of the Moon Landing & other theories fall under this 'Too Big' theory. He puts 9/11 under that category. The number of people needed to pull off 4 plane hijackings almost simultaneously, to find the appropriate Middle Eastern Men willing to die, ensure the Towers fell, etc., would be so great as to do away with any cover-up.
-------------------- I cannot live without books-Thomas Jefferson *~* A child educated only at school is an uneducated child - George Santayana I'm going to pummel you with such zeal, Buddha will explode! *~* Never miss a good chance to shut up - Will Rogers Posts: 6585 | From: Dallas/Fort Worth, TX | Registered: Feb 2002
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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
And honestly Morgaine that is my problem with about 9 out of 10 "conspiracy" theories, the math just doesn't add up. This is the 21st century. We can't keep anything a secret.
I've mentioned in other conspiracy theory threads how much I just want to... well hit people with a really big stick when ever they talk about this shadowy underground conspiracies that somehow everyone manages to know about.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by abigsmurf: wow I'm the only person who though flight 93 was shot down...
If it's any consolation, I think they would have if it hadn't crashed.
They scrambled fighter jets to do that. The problem is that they couldn't have intercepted in time to take the plane down before it was over a populated area. That's what has been reported.
There was a thread years ago where someone pointed to a bit of transcript involving Dick Cheney and the scrambling of fighters out of Washinton DC. But, I did the math on that one and it was impossible for those planes to get to flight 93 on time. It's surprising how small the window in which they could have shot down the plane really was. I'll see if I can't dig up some of the numbers to back that up though.
On another note, idea that the World trade center buildings were brought down with controlled explosives could only work in the head of people who watch too many movies. If you've ever watched what is entailed in a controlled demolition of a big structure, and there are plenty of documentaries which show this, you could see that the preparation process would be impossible to hide. Thousands of holes would have to be drilled into the sturture of the building with wires running from these to the detonation power source. Honestly, if that was going on, somebody would have detected something very odd. At the least it would require that every maintenance person in the building was part of the plot.
posted
To paraphrase very tightly Edward R. Murrow, changing one small part:
quote:The actions of the junior Senator from WisconsinPresident of the United States have caused alarm and dismay amongst our allies abroad, and given considerable comfort to our enemies. And whose fault is that? Not really his. He didn't create this situation of fear; he merely exploited it— and rather successfully. Cassius was right. "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves." Good night, and good luck.
Bush didn't cause 9/11 any more than McCarthy caused communism. However both have ruthlessly exploited the resulting fear and manipulated/twisted facts to support their own personal political agendas.
-------------------- The best measure of a man's honesty isn't his income tax return. It's the zero adjust on his bathroom scale. Arthur C. Clarke (1917 - ) Posts: 244 | From: Ventura, CA | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:At 9.58am a 911 call - the last mobile phone contact from Flight 93 - was made from one of the airliner's toilets by passenger Edward Felt.
Glenn Cramer, the emergency supervisor who answered it, said on the day: "He was very distraught. He said he believed the plane was going down.
"He did hear some sort of an explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane, but he didn't know where. And then we lost contact with him." Glenn Cramer has now been gagged by the FBI.
The retaking of the plane started around this time and ended with the aircraft impacting terrain at 10:03.
I'm not sure how you'd see smoke from inside or outside the aircraft when you're hiding in the restroom.
I'd really like to see a transcription of the flight data recorder and ATC record - I'm curious what the plane was doing during the retaking.
From the CVR my interpretation was that Jarrah and Saeed were in the cockpit, and the other two were guarding the passengers and were overtaken by the passengers. During this Jarrah was shouting "Up, Down, Saeed!" which was either him ordering Saeed to porpoise the plane, or else Jareed was at the controls and warning Saeed, who was standing watch at the cockpit door.
I wonder if anyone was able to tag the transcription to individual voices.
-------------------- Thinking about New England / missing old Japan Posts: 2603 | From: Virginia | Registered: Mar 2001
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