posted
While I agree with others who don't like his gung-ho style, it has certainly opened up the subject of nature documentaries to a whole new audience. Hopefully, some of these will later gravitate towards the more serious documentaries.
There are some documentaries which I think maintains a balance between showmanship and science. Insectia is such a show, which relates the insectial subjects to the viewer, while still avoiding the extreme "staging". I also love the accent on the host of Insectia, but that's a side issue.
quote:I am listening to an interview with "someone" who saw it happen, and apparently Steve was swiming above the stingray and the barb came up and hit him in the chest - he wasn't goading it. From what the chap is saying it was indeed a freak accident of the worst kind.
Sounds like a tragic mishap because of their relative speeds and an unfortunate spiky tail getting lodged between them.
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Edit: While looking at the wikipedia entry on stingrays, I realized that I have actually seen one when snorkling in Aqaba in the Red Sea! It was just a small one, perhaps 70 cm or so between the "wing tips", but still definately a sting ray. I'm still alive, does that mean that I'm tougher than the Crocodile Hunter?
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
That is not really an accident. Irwin must have been right on top of the ray. Rays do not 'jump' upwards to strike. The weapon lies flat, above and parallel to the tail - attached at the base of the tail. The most it can do is whip the tail upwards and partially erecting the spike. You have to be very close or contacting the fish to get hit. Depending on the size of the ray, it probably cannot drive in the spike if you are more than about 10 inches away.
The ray probably reacted as if Irwin was some funky big predator about to eat it. From a naturalistic perspective, the freak in the 'freak accident' was an Aussie ape on top of a fish rigged with a spear. The ray was quite invested in this extreme defense, as they lose the spike in the action and are defenseless until they grow another one to replace it.
-------------------- Terrified, mortified, petrified, stupefied... by you! Posts: 3157 | From: Illinois | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Sounds like a tragic mishap because of their relative speeds and an unfortunate spiky tail getting lodged between them
How do you mean?
The ray's barb/defence process is triggered by downward pressure on it's dorsal region - there don't seem to be any other cases concerning a ray attacking a human. Most injuries in sting ray cases are to the achilles region because the animals are trodden on.
If Irwin was tagged not having 'threatened' the ray as Mosh' reports he was indeed a very unlucky man.
edited becasue I keep calling rays feckin skates
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posted
Oh no! I don't know how I'll tell the Kitten.
4K
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: Sounds like a tragic mishap because of their relative speeds and an unfortunate spiky tail getting lodged between them.
Because of the position and orientation of the spike, one doesn't really have a chance to be accidentally impaled into the heart. The ray must have been in full-panic defensive reflex with Irwin right on top of it.
-------------------- Terrified, mortified, petrified, stupefied... by you! Posts: 3157 | From: Illinois | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Barns & No Bull: That is not really an accident. Irwin must have been right on top of the ray. Rays do not 'jump' upwards to strike. The weapon lies flat, above and parallel to the tail - attached at the base of the tail. The most it can do is whip the tail upwards and partially erecting the spike. You have to be very close or contacting the fish to get hit. Depending on the size of the ray, it probably cannot drive in the spike if you are more than about 10 inches away.
The interviewee said they were snorkelling in extremely shallow water, if that makes a difference.
I suppose we shan't know all the details until later though.
-------------------- Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:"He came over the top of a stingray and the stingray's barb went up and went into his chest and put a hole into his heart," Irwin's shocked manager John Stainton told reporters in Cairns, south of Port Douglas.
It sounds like he caught it by surprised, coming out from the reef practically on top of the animal.
quote:Irwin's death was likely only the third recorded fatal stingray attack in Australia, experts said. They said stingray venom was agonizingly painful but not lethal, although the barb was capable of causing horrific injuries like a knife or bayonet.
I have a mental image of the shocked stingray going home and say "Crikey, I think I've just killed Steve-bloody-Irwin"
quote:Originally posted by Barns & No Bull: That is not really an accident. Irwin must have been right on top of the ray. Rays do not 'jump' upwards to strike. The weapon lies flat, above and parallel to the tail - attached at the base of the tail. The most it can do is whip the tail upwards and partially erecting the spike. You have to be very close or contacting the fish to get hit. Depending on the size of the ray, it probably cannot drive in the spike if you are more than about 10 inches away.
The interviewee said they were snorkelling in extremely shallow water, if that makes a difference.
I suppose we shan't know all the details until later though.
Aye that puts a different spin on it, if he was just skimming over the bed and accidentally disturbed the surface in which a ray was chilling out - pow!
-------------------- This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever... Posts: 6552 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: I'm not so sure we should count him out for good, he's been "dead" several times before. It may still turn out to be a hoax.
Really? I have never heard of him being dead before. I have to say this makes me very sad as he was always a personal hero to me.
I heard a rumour that he'd died of a snakebite before, and some other people on a footy forum I post on mentioned the same thing
There used to be film clip of Steve Irwin discussing this rumor on the Discovery Channel site, but I see it's no longer there. (Presumably it was pulled some time ago.) The text version of his response can still be found in the Animal Planet's Crocodile Hunter FAQ,
quote:Q: Many concerned fans, including Connie Games and Chris Baird, have heard rumors that you have been bitten by a very venomous snake and have died. Others worried that you had succumbed to a fatal crocodile bite. Are you OK?
A: I've never been bitten by a venomous snake, and I recently heard that I'd been killed. Ha ha! I've been killed by crocodiles, venomous snakes, spiders. I've even had a beetle crawl in my ear and kill me once. Nah! I'm here to tell you: Steve Irwin lives!
This rumor has been floating around at least for a decade. (By the way, it's come up here on the message board at least one other time.)
-- Bonnie
-------------------- Se non è vero, è ben trovato. Posts: -99014 | From: Chapel Hill, North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Barns & No Bull: I'll make an early bet that he conciously engaged the ray and bought the farm because of it.
He may have engaged it, or was, as Jay Tea said, swimming low above it and surprised it.
But even if he was initiating contact with it, that is not an unusual, cruel, or even reckless thing for a diver to do. Many divers swim with them in the wild, and in marine parks it's not uncommon to be able to pet and feed them in open tanks.
I know the reports are saying he died of the puncture rather than the venom, but I have to wonder about that. I stepped on a sting ray at a beach in Ca when I was 13 and was stung through the bottom of the foot. When I was being treated, I was told that a diver had been stung in the neck only a few months before and had died from the venom. I was led to believe it can be lethal if injected in the right place--like the heart. Anyone know for sure?
-------------------- The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House Posts: 2684 | From: Budapest | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I think if the barb went straight through the heart then the cause of death would be taken as puncture, rather than the effects of the venom.
-------------------- "British English speakers point to Americans adding more syllables so that they can make even more noise without actually saying anything." Llewtrah
Posts: 2235 | From: Sussex , UK | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: I was led to believe it can be lethal if injected in the right place--like the heart. Anyone know for sure?
I think it's irrelevant whether it was the venom that killed him or the big hole in his heart. The point is that he'd have died even if it had been something non-venomous that stabbed him in the heart.
ETA: spanked by Hans!
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Four Kitties: Oh no! I don't know how I'll tell the Kitten.
4K
I'm thinking the same thing about my kids. It also hurts because my DS is about the same age as his daughter. I can't imagine having to tell my kids what his wife has had to tell them.
I did find him to be over the top, but having worked with little kids, there are probably those who would find me 'over-the-top', especially if they came in during music! I respected his enthusiasm for what he did & the way he chose to share that with kids.
-------------------- I cannot live without books-Thomas Jefferson *~* A child educated only at school is an uneducated child - George Santayana I'm going to pummel you with such zeal, Buddha will explode! *~* Never miss a good chance to shut up - Will Rogers Posts: 6585 | From: Dallas/Fort Worth, TX | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: I was led to believe it can be lethal if injected in the right place--like the heart. Anyone know for sure?
I think it's irrelevant whether it was the venom that killed him or the big hole in his heart. The point is that he'd have died even if it had been something non-venomous that stabbed him in the heart.
ETA: spanked by Hans!
Ok, true enough. A serrated barb in the heart is lethal one way or the other.
I was just curious about the strength of the venom in general. It's a neurotoxin, I believe.
-------------------- The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House Posts: 2684 | From: Budapest | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I know I just posted a CNN link above that said the ray was buried in the sand, but this link from The Australian News contradicts that.
quote: "The footage shows him swimming in the water, the ray stopped and turned and that was it," said boatowner Peter West, who viewed the footage afterwards.
and
quote:Footage of the attack shows Irwin swimming above a 2.5m stingray before it turns on him and sends a poisonous barb through his heart.
and
quote: "He was up in the shallow water, probably 1.5m to 2m deep, following a bull ray which was about a metre across the body - probably weighing about 100kg, and it had quite a large spine
posted
Sad-sad-sad. He seemed like he really loved what he did and the animals he worked with. Even the crocs he worked with were always referred to in a loving manner. I always thought his wife must have nerves of steel. I get freaked when my SO climbs a ladder to trim the palms!
-------------------- I'm not mean, you're just a big sissy. -Happy Bunny
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.- Verbal Kint
Trespassers will be pelted with jellyfish.- Daniel Cluley Posts: 221 | From: Bradenton, FL | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Frog_Feathers: I don't know how I'm going to tell my son. He adored Steve Irwin. He even does the absolute worst impersonation of him. Steve Irwin is the reason my son loves reptiles.
And I always thought my husband did the worst impression of him.
I loved his show. His poor family. His son is too young to ever really remember him at all.
-------------------- "Seize the day! Make your lives extraordinary!" -John Keating, "Dead Poets Society" Posts: 2861 | From: New Jersey | Registered: May 2004
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posted
From The Australian News link posted by smallpotatoes it reads like it was the combination of Irwin beside the ray and the cameraman uphead of it which led to the spooked sting ray and the defensive reaction.
I wasn't keen on Steve Irwin's style, but you couldn't fault the guy for his enthusiasm. He seems to have had a genuine love for nature and that clearly had an impact on a lot of people. It's a sad loss.
posted
On the news they just said the stingray barb went into his chest and pierced his heart.
I really liked Steve Irwin... He was so enthusiastic about his work and he always seemed like a really friendly guy.
-------------------- Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. Posts: 2110 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I haven't told DS#1 yet -- he loved that show when he was younger. We did a Corcodile Hunter party for his third birthday and he LOVED it, went around quoting Steve-isms to everybody all day! He's also around Bindi's age. I must say, however, that it was a shame that Steve felt it necessary to continue to take the risks he took even after having young children. IMHO, that's a bit irresponsible.
However, I don't think one can measure his impact on future generations -- I think there will be plenty of young people who go into animal research and conservation because of him. Not a bad legacy, eh?
-------------------- Like every good third-in-a-series it contains a whole load of ewoks, ‘Clubber’ Lang, whey-faced Sophia Coppola, Sean Connery as the Pirate Captain’s estranged dad, a crappy CGI alien, and Richard Pryor on a donkey. -- Gideon Defoe Posts: 2211 | From: Harford County, MD | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
The world is a sadder place today. DD says she can't believe it was a stingray that got him, she figured it'd be a croc, about 20 years from now. I hope his legacy lives on. All our condolences to his family.
-------------------- God bless our Troops! If you can't stand behind our troops, please, feel free to stand in front of them. Posts: 380 | From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I read this on Yahoo this moring. That is just SO bizzare! The man has handled the deadliest creatures on earth. To be killed in such a way is just so ironic!
posted
I read a myspace bulletin about this. Since it was a mysapce bulletin and such a strange cause of death I was hoping it wasn't true. Like other said I didn't care much for the way Steve Irwin went abut everything, but he did always seem like a nice, happy guy. This is very sad
-------------------- Me: "He's 19? Uh oh, I bought him a beer." A: "You contributed to the deliquency of a minor in drag!" "Sweet spell check: keeping drunks off the radar since 1995."- IND GodRe-AnimateGreenPorkBush Posts: 3986 | From: Illinois, jealous? | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Because of the position and orientation of the spike, one doesn't really have a chance to be accidentally impaled into the heart. The ray must have been in full-panic defensive reflex with Irwin right on top of it.
Could someone explaing how the stinger works?
I thought it was just a sharp spike at then end of the tail, and while swimming above it it got startled and raised the stinger someway. Irwin's own speed propelled him onto it, pushing the ray down towards the bottom so it can't escape. Am I way off here?
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
It's weird how many people are so attached to him. I'm with them. I haven't watched the show for a while but it still is upsetting. I feel sad for his poor family.
Posts: 59 | From: Nampa, ID | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Irwin's own speed propelled him onto it, pushing the ray down towards the bottom so it can't escape. Am I way off here?
The venomous barb lies under the base of the tail - when threatened, the barb is forced upwards and forwards with such force that they can kill dophins.
-------------------- This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever... Posts: 6552 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mommytutu: It's weird how many people are so attached to him. I'm with them. I haven't watched the show for a while but it still is upsetting. I feel sad for his poor family.
Yes, I didn't realize how well he was liked. When the whole scandal happened with his son, I thought America would turn on him permanently. I didn't think it was the brightest of moves, but I still couldn't help loving the guy. He was just so sincere in his enthusiasm and affection for all creatures great and small.
-------------------- The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House Posts: 2684 | From: Budapest | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I told my kids about this this morning (although I'd seen it on CNN late last night) and they were pretty blase but when I told my mom she was really upset. I had no idea she'd watched his shows and would be so saddened by his death. I agree with others that he just seemed like a genuinely nice guy with a passion (ok maybe sometimes misplaced) for what he was doing.
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