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A study finds that female roles are rare in children's movies, including Finding Nemo, the 2003 mega-hit, and last year's Madagascar, among others. And those with balanced male-female casts are exceedingly rare, accounting for only seven of the 101 top-grossing G-rated films released from 1990 to 2004.
quote: I have kept on using male characters because ... girls will read boys' books, boys usually won't read girls' [books],
S. E. Hinton - (female) author of The Outsiders et al.
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I can't believe they mentioned Mulan as a positive role model. I'll admit I've never seen the film (and I've never allowed my son to see it either). The McDonald commericals where the little girl came in and beat the crap out or the living room furniture was enough to drive me away from the thing. Even the premise from what I understand of it bugged me out something fierce. You pretend to be something you're not to go to battle. Hey I didn't raise my boy to be a liar or a soldier.
Yeah Cinderella and Snow White may have been replaced with Buzz Lightyear... and perhaps very little has changed. Although I think the absence of leading females is better than them being seen as helpless heroines. Ok, you've got the fairy god mother... Should it be "Chicken Little" or "Henny Penny"? I don't know and I don't care. I don't think the sky is falling. I just think that male characters have a wider appeal (something you want when making a movie). I thought it was pretty accepted in society to use the male gender when approaching a mixed audience... something that parenting books never seem to do (I have a boy child, thank you very much for continually calling it a her). Athough I find many cartoon caractures to be fairly gender neutral. Bambi was a boy !?! WTF? It sounds more like a female or transexual stripper but its still a fun name to say.
-------------------- "The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:
What is the use of women?" Steve W. from JREF's 'This is no fun' Posts: 7622 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Chimera: I can't believe they mentioned Mulan as a positive role model. I'll admit I've never seen the film (and I've never allowed my son to see it either). The McDonald commericals where the little girl came in and beat the crap out or the living room furniture was enough to drive me away from the thing. Even the premise from what I understand of it bugged me out something fierce. You pretend to be something you're not to go to battle. Hey I didn't raise my boy to be a liar or a soldier.
So you're upset because they considered her a positive role model, and yet you're only basing your judgement on what amounts to the ads?
-------------------- This has been yet another... USELESS POST. Posts: 6105 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Sep 2001
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I think Mulan was a pretty positive character, depending on how you look at it (and whether you saw the movie). I think the intended message was that she did what it took to help her family, and that in the end everyone recognized her for the good things about her and not just for what she had to pretend to be. Taking responsibility, caring about your family, accepting people even if they don't seem to fit a role - those are positives in my book.
quote: I have kept on using male characters because ... girls will read boys' books, boys usually won't read girls' [books],
S. E. Hinton - (female) author of The Outsiders et al.
The Outsiders may have been written by a female, but pretty much all of the important characters were male. Both boys and girls would gladly read an interesting story that revolves around a group of boys. However, boys are much less likely to read (or watch) something that they think is girlie. When's the last time you saw a guy reading The Babysitters Club, etc?
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I'd be happy to see more female characters as long as the females actually get to be characters and not just role models.
I also think a lot of kids prefer characters that are over-the-top and funny, but female characters are often stuck being more serious and dignified. It's unfair, I say.
Posts: 40 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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OT can of worms: I've noticed females rarely get the funny bits as well, but remember it was traditional that the straight character was always paid better. Comedians are a dime a dozen, but it takes the straight faced guy (or gal) to pull off the gags and it wasn't uncommon for them to get the lion's share of the earnings. I also notice that men can be bald, fat and black. Even black women on TV aren't usually all that black. Fat women are few and far between and rarely get top billing. Bald women are almost unheard of, but since most baldness is a sex based trait found in more men than women that one shouldn't be so surprising.
-------------------- "The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:
What is the use of women?" Steve W. from JREF's 'This is no fun' Posts: 7622 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002
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They can start by not killing all the moms before the story even starts. This didn't used to bother me.
There are plenty of positive things in Mulan. To me the most important is that is does not end with a wedding but rather an invitation to dinner.
I read lots of stories about guys when I was young but the well written tale with a female lead are the ones I treasure. I hope they make The Hero and the Crown by Robin McKinley into a movie someday. I don't want my daughter to only see the processed princess product from Disney.
Posts: 1168 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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Blame Jung. Heros arn't supposed to have their parentage in tact. It's considered more tragic to be brought up without a mom, so mom's get offed.
quote:Originally posted by Blatherskite: I also think a lot of kids prefer characters that are over-the-top and funny, but female characters are often stuck being more serious and dignified. It's unfair, I say.
Say what you want, but this is one of the reasons I enjoyed the first two Scary Movie films (I've not seen the other two). Anna Faris' character is allowed to be funny, in a really stupid, undignified way. And it's so rare to see a girl make a pratt of herself in that way, which is a shame.
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quote:Originally posted by Blatherskite: I also think a lot of kids prefer characters that are over-the-top and funny, but female characters are often stuck being more serious and dignified. It's unfair, I say.
Say what you want, but this is one of the reasons I enjoyed the first two Scary Movie films (I've not seen the other two). Anna Faris' character is allowed to be funny, in a really stupid, undignified way. And it's so rare to see a girl make a pratt of herself in that way, which is a shame.
I think that's part of the problem: we like characters whom we can laugh at, but it's considered risky to make a ridiculous female character, because then you risk playing into gender stereotypes and making people angry. As a creator of popular entertainment, you just can't have as much fun with a girl. I remember reading an interview (which I now can't find) with Nick Galifianakis, who does the cartoons for Carolyn Hax's advice column. He was asked why most of the people he drew were white, and he expressed reservations about doing so because his cartoons invariably mock the people in them, and he didn't want to be seen as making fun of a minority group. ( Here's a recent one--the basic format is: Carolyn answeres letter from an idiot/person in a relationship with an idiot, Nick draws cartoon poking fun at the idiot.) Made sense.
-------------------- "If God wrote it, the grammar must be infallible. Perhaps it is we who are mistaken." -MapleLeaf Posts: 977 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Oct 2005
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Something similar happened in Red Dwarf, when Holly changed sex. All of a sudden, the female version had to be a bit more intelligent and the other characters almost stopped insulting her completely. And why? Still supposed to be the same character. I really think it's stupid.
Anyway, I think part of the problem of why there aren't as many female characters in kid's films is the same reason that there aren't as many female characters in adult's films - most writers, directors and producers are male. So it's partly the patriarchy, and partly because people simply write what they know. Douglas Adams has said that he rarely wrote about women characters because he simply didn't know how to write them.
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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I can remember my mother mentioning this when I was little....maybe 4 or 5. I guess not much has changed.
I thought Mulan was an awesome character. Belle from Beauty and the Beast isn't a stereotypical princess either. Growing up, I always identified with Belle because she liked books and was misunderstood by those around her.
As far as the fear of offending people with ridiculously silly female characters, I think few people would be upset if the character was witty as a opposed to ditzy or doing slapstick gags. As a performer of improv comedy, I know the worry about offending people with my jokes. Oddly enough, most of the other people in the improv troupe don't seem to think it will be a problem.
Posts: 885 | From: Florida | Registered: May 2004
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Heck, for that matter Mulan pretended to be a man to take her dad's (a veteran with a disability who would almost certainly be grievously injured, made very ill or killed on the front lines) place when a *Man* was drafted from every family into the Imperial army. She was prepared to give her life (possibly in a horrible manner) to save her father. If that's not a positive role model, I don't know what is.
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Mulan wasn't a positive role model because she lied, or because she was a solider: she was a positive role model because she sacrificed herself to save her father and help her family. That's a plot point you'll miss if you base your judgment of the movie on an ad for the McDonald's merchandising tie-in.
ETA: Spanked by Para. And why is this thread in NFBSK?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Esprise Me: I think that's part of the problem: we like characters whom we can laugh at, but it's considered risky to make a ridiculous female character, because then you risk playing into gender stereotypes and making people angry. As a creator of popular entertainment, you just can't have as much fun with a girl. [/QB]
I don't see how it's that much of a risk. Don't put stereotyping in, don't get stereotyping out. It doesn't just set in like an offensive fungus.
The princess in Shrek wasn't a gender stereotype and she was funny. She was more dignified than the other characters but, then, she was the princess.
Actually, I don't mind the way that female characters are typecast as more sensible and serious as much as I mind the fact that they rarely have memorable personalities. They're just dollies. Changing the pretty dress accessory to deadly weapon now-with-added-kickass accessory doesn't necessarily make things better (I'm not talking about Mulan here - never seen it).
So the more outrageous and memorable characters are male.
*Edited for editing's sake*
Posts: 40 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Blatherskite: Come to think of it, it's the same with comedians. The eccentric and silly ones tend to be male. Female comedians tend to be more about Issues.
That's one of the reasons I love Gilda Radner and Rachel Dratch. It's rare to find female comedians who aren't afraid to be terribly silly and play characters that most women would consider themselves too dignified for.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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Oops, I just edited that bit out of my post for being off-topic, Cervus.
While I'm replying again I just want to add that I think Belle was cool too. She wasn't what I was complaining about female characters rarely being, but she was a good role model. She also had quite a unique personality for a Disney 'princess'.
Then again, I always liked Ursula from The Little Mermaid, despite the soul harvesting thing. Now there's a thought - does the percentage of female roles rise when it comes to evil characters in kids' films?
Posts: 40 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Blatherskite: Then again, I always liked Ursula from The Little Mermaid, despite the soul harvesting thing. Now there's a thought - does the percentage of female roles rise when it comes to evil characters in kids' films?
Let's see, the villainesses I can think of off the top of my head are the evil queen from snow white, the evil sorceress from sleeping beauty, the evil stepmother and stepsisters from cinderella, Ursula of course, Cruella De Vil, the evil aunt in "Lady and the tramp," (were the Siamese Cats female, too?) and Yzma in "The Emperor's New Groove."
Disney at any rate used to be WAY worse about female villains, but they seem far more balanced these days.
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quote:Originally posted by monkey: When's the last time you saw a guy reading The Babysitters Club, etc?
Well, that's just it. You don't see it, but it does happen. If you're a boy who likes to read but doesn't like sci-fi, typically you learn to like the girls' series because, well, that's what's available. But you don't let anyone else know you do it, because that wouldn't be cool.
Ramblin' "I swear, I didn't know what Are you there God, it's me, Margaret was about when I checked it out of the library!" Dave
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave. Dry. Crisp. Witty.:
quote:Originally posted by monkey: When's the last time you saw a guy reading The Babysitters Club, etc?
Well, that's just it. You don't see it, but it does happen. If you're a boy who likes to read but doesn't like sci-fi, typically you learn to like the girls' series because, well, that's what's available. But you don't let anyone else know you do it, because that wouldn't be cool.
Ramblin' "I swear, I didn't know what Are you there God, it's me, Margaret was about when I checked it out of the library!" Dave
Haha. I did. I was in grade 6. And it was a verrry interesting book.
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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I'll certainly agree that it was interesting. And I learned a lot too! Before reading it, I thought the boys at the lunch table were just trying to gross each other out with those rumors about girls...but Judy Blume wouldn't do that to you!
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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What bothers me is so often when there are female characters, it's all about them being female. 'Look, she must have a bow, long eyelashes, talk in a high voice, and/or wear a dress, how else could we tell she's a girl?' That's one of the things I really liked about Blue's Clues. The only way you could tell Blue was female was through the pronouns used. Dory, in Finding Nemo, is a similar case.
I'd personally rather there be no female characters than ones that look like male characters in drag (Minnie Mouse, Daisy Duck, I'm looking at you).
I think it probably is true that boys will avoid things about girls, but girls won't avoid things that are about boys. I had a nintendo gameboy for years before my SO asked me if I was bothered by the name. It truly had never even occured to me that there was a gender there. You can be sure most males would be hyper-aware if their toy was called a "gamegirl", tho.
ETA: "Are you there God, it's me, Margaret" should probably be required reading for every adolescent male. It certainly would give them a good idea of what it's actually like to be a female.
Posts: 550 | From: Springboro, OH | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by mags: ETA: "Are you there God, it's me, Margaret" should probably be required reading for every adolescent male. It certainly would give them a good idea of what it's actually like to be a female.
I don't think I'm the only girl who couldn't relate to that book and walked away more confused than ever about the other members of my gender. I'd hate to have those characters held up as an example of what it's like to be female. I never discussed bras or the intimate details of my period with other girls - nor did I look forward to puberty. The characters in that book were from another planet.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by mags: ETA: "Are you there God, it's me, Margaret" should probably be required reading for every adolescent male. It certainly would give them a good idea of what it's actually like to be a female.
I don't think I'm the only girl who couldn't relate to that book and walked away more confused than ever about the other members of my gender. I'd hate to have those characters held up as an example of what it's like to be female. I never discussed bras or the intimate details of my period with other girls - nor did I look forward to puberty. The characters in that book were from another planet.
Well, now that you mention it, neither did I. Is that what they did in that book? It's been so long since I read it. Ok, maybe it shouldn't be required reading. Is there any book about the pains of becoming an adult woman that doesn't have girls acting like aliens?
I do have to admit, while I didn't look forward to puberty, exactly, I did somewhat bring it on myself. I was pretty late in starting (I was in high school before I did), and my mom mentioned that as long as I had such a low body fat percentage, I wouldn't. I don't think I exactly planned it, but that was when I started having late snacks of cookies and potato chips. And so a very skinny kid became a fat adult Posts: 550 | From: Springboro, OH | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chimera: I can't believe they mentioned Mulan as a positive role model. I'll admit I've never seen the film (and I've never allowed my son to see it either). The McDonald commericals where the little girl came in and beat the crap out or the living room furniture was enough to drive me away from the thing. Even the premise from what I understand of it bugged me out something fierce. You pretend to be something you're not to go to battle. Hey I didn't raise my boy to be a liar or a soldier.
Mulan was based on a Chinese legend about a woman named Mulan who disguises herself as a man to take the place of her elderly father. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Mulan
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quote:Originally posted by mags: ETA: "Are you there God, it's me, Margaret" should probably be required reading for every adolescent male. It certainly would give them a good idea of what it's actually like to be a female.
I don't think I'm the only girl who couldn't relate to that book and walked away more confused than ever about the other members of my gender. I'd hate to have those characters held up as an example of what it's like to be female. I never discussed bras or the intimate details of my period with other girls - nor did I look forward to puberty. The characters in that book were from another planet.
Nah, me neither. I have no idea when my friends started their periods, and we certainly would never have sent cards to each other to announce the fact!
Mind you, I didn't know what puberty and periods were when I read it (Mum gave it to me to try and explain what would happen to me), so it's no wonder I was confused.
-------------------- Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000
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