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Author Topic: Flag Rank can Create Uniform Regs in Army?
Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Alright, here's one from the distant past... at least in MY life.

I recall being told very distinctly that generals had the WRITTEN authority to establish their own uniform regulations and wear what they wanted - and it was thereby "official"... at least for them.

In THEORY at least, a General could show up to work in uniform shirt and blue jeans and he was cool...

Sounds way over ULish to me... however (isn't there always one?)...

In the Army, Generals are gods amongst men. NOBODY questions them. We figured that when you ended up with four stars, you could show up in a purple tutu and not be questioned.

Can someone help? Thanks!!

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Military history is certainly full of generals with non-standard uniforms. Göring, Patton, Montgomery is probably the most well known.

The question then becomes if this regulation or if they just get away with it because no one questioned it and because part of their job is PR.

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/Troberg

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Delta-V
Xboxing Day


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Army Regulation 670-1 states:
quote:
Only uniforms, accessories, and insignia prescribed in this regulation or in the common tables of allowance (CTA), or as approved by Headquarters, Department of the Army (HQDA), will be worn by personnel in the U.S. Army.
It doesn't give any special exemption to Generals. There are a few exceptions, like the Cavalry's black Stetson, that fall under 'tradition', so they can get away with it.

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"My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere

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Matt H.
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Delta-V:
Army Regulation 670-1 states:
quote:
Only uniforms, accessories, and insignia prescribed in this regulation or in the common tables of allowance (CTA), or as approved by Headquarters, Department of the Army (HQDA), will be worn by personnel in the U.S. Army.
It doesn't give any special exemption to Generals. There are a few exceptions, like the Cavalry's black Stetson, that fall under 'tradition', so they can get away with it.
Actually, there is a special exemption for generals. From the applicability section:
quote:
(This regulation) does not apply to generals of the Army, the Chief of Staff of the Army, or former Chiefs of Staff of the Army, each who may prescribe their own uniform.

So, yes, flag officers can choose what they want to wear.

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"Who needs the Bible? I've got this magic 8-ball."

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CannonFodder Global Trotter
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Nice reference search there Matt! Your PLDC instructors would be proud.

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"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

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Matt H.
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by CannonFodder Global Trotter:
Nice reference search there Matt! Your PLDC instructors would be proud.

Thanks...I read ARs to fall asleep, and last week it was 670-1. For some reason, that sentence stuck out (if only to motivate me to take a commission on the off-chance I could wear shorts to formation in the distant future.)

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"Who needs the Bible? I've got this magic 8-ball."

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CannonFodder Global Trotter
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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NFBSK shorts. I just wanna not have to wear (literally) sixty pounds of body armor in the 120 degree middle of the day. Of course we're going to the night shift, so this will no longer be a problem.

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"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

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FireSpook
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Matt H.:
quote:
Originally posted by Delta-V:
Army Regulation 670-1 states:
quote:
Only uniforms, accessories, and insignia prescribed in this regulation or in the common tables of allowance (CTA), or as approved by Headquarters, Department of the Army (HQDA), will be worn by personnel in the U.S. Army.
It doesn't give any special exemption to Generals. There are a few exceptions, like the Cavalry's black Stetson, that fall under 'tradition', so they can get away with it.
Actually, there is a special exemption for generals. From the applicability section:
quote:
(This regulation) does not apply to generals of the Army, the Chief of Staff of the Army, or former Chiefs of Staff of the Army, each who may prescribe their own uniform.

So, yes, flag officers can choose what they want to wear.

holy crap!
you could show up dressed like spock!!

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mgbdriver
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Matt H.:
quote:
(This regulation) does not apply to generals of the Army, the Chief of Staff of the Army, or former Chiefs of Staff of the Army, each who may prescribe their own uniform.

So, yes, flag officers can choose what they want to wear.
Does that mean ANY general? IIRC, "General of the Army" is a rank, a.k.a., a 5-star general.

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Matt H.
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by mgbdriver:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt H.:
quote:
(This regulation) does not apply to generals of the Army, the Chief of Staff of the Army, or former Chiefs of Staff of the Army, each who may prescribe their own uniform.

So, yes, flag officers can choose what they want to wear.
Does that mean ANY general? IIRC, "General of the Army" is a rank, a.k.a., a 5-star general.
You are correct, but when used as a rank, the term is capitalized, as you did.

ETA: I'll be damned...the reg only mentions the rank in two other sports, both uncapitalized. It also makes no reference to 5-star rank or uniforms. You may be right, and the fact that a certain few flag officers can choose their own uniforms may be the source of the OP.

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"Who needs the Bible? I've got this magic 8-ball."

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Sonovagun! No foolin'!?!?! Hot damn, Matt! Thanks!!

SOMEBODY STOP ME!!! I AM HEMORRAGING EXCLAMATION MARKS!!!

Well, that certainly makes me feel better.

The "general of the Army" is a position for a four star general... as in "Commissioned CEO of the Army, and representative at the Joint Chiefs of Staff. After Omar Bradley, they no longer gave the head of the Army five stars...

Thanks again, Matt! And I was positive that it was just a UL and nobody had the balls to tell the Emperor that he had no clothes... [lol]

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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Delta-V
Xboxing Day


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Nicely done, Matt! That's what I get for skipping straight to the Table of Contents!

quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
The "general of the Army" is a position for a four star general... as in "Commissioned CEO of the Army, and representative at the Joint Chiefs of Staff. After Omar Bradley, they no longer gave the head of the Army five stars...

Actually, the Army representative on the JCS is the Chief of Staff of the Army. I think this line refers to O-11 rank officers, as the CSA is already mentioned. Since 5-star rank is no longer awarded, then the exemption only applies to the 10 or so current and former CSAs still living, and definitely not everyone of 'Flag Rank'. Of course, since the CSA commands HQDA, he approves all Army uniforms...which I guess means he could allow everyone to dress as Spock.

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"My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere

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Norton II
Deck the Malls


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In actuality, who's going to tell a general that he or she is out of uniform? Only a more senior general could get away with it.

Norton "former Captain who had a run-in with a general" II

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Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico

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mnotr2
Jingle Bell Hock


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Anyone can make an on-the-spot correction regardless of their rank. However, if you're going to correct someone who outranks you, you'd better be right. But you're correct Norton, when it comes to generals sometimes it's better to be quiet than right.

Although I have seen an A1C (E-3) square off against a Major General, and win. But not on a uniform call.

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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In Korea, I watched a PFC (E-3) get a Major General...

In 1986, the Army had just published general safety guidelines, to include the very first rule about mandatory seatbelt use in government vehicles. I was a VIP briefer on the DMZ, and our team had just finished briefing the Two-Star on the history and mission up at the DMZ when we got into the big ol' van to go up to the guard posts. The E-3 driver got in, everybody but the Two-Star put their seat belts on... and we sat there.

Finally the General asks, "Why aren't we moving, son?"

"I'm waiting for you to put your seatbelt on, Sir."
"What if I tell you that I'm not gonna put it on?"

"Well, Sir, I'll drive real slow so you can keep up while you walk behind the vehicle."

The silence was palpable...

The general laughed his ass off, and the kid got a Challenge Coin for his quick wit and quip. He buckled up and we were off.

Everything went fine until we went up the drive to Guard Post Collier - where the drive is at a VERY steep angle, and at the top, the VERY first thing you see is a live, armed claymore mine - pointing right at you - about 6' away from the front of the vehicle. It always got reactions to be faced with "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY"!! [lol]

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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Norton II
Deck the Malls


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My episode with a General had nothing to do with uniforms. One of my men had driven an M110 8" self-propelled howitzer through the side of a building, causing considerable damage to both the building and the track. The General was not pleased and made his displeasure known to everyone in earshot. Since the First Sergeant and I were both standing at a brace in front of him, we got the full effect of his unhappiness.

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Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico

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skeptic
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
In Korea, I watched a PFC (E-3) get a Major General...

In 1986, the Army had just published general safety guidelines, to include the very first rule about mandatory seatbelt use in government vehicles. I was a VIP briefer on the DMZ, and our team had just finished briefing the Two-Star on the history and mission up at the DMZ when we got into the big ol' van to go up to the guard posts. The E-3 driver got in, everybody but the Two-Star put their seat belts on... and we sat there.

Finally the General asks, "Why aren't we moving, son?"

"I'm waiting for you to put your seatbelt on, Sir."
"What if I tell you that I'm not gonna put it on?"

"Well, Sir, I'll drive real slow so you can keep up while you walk behind the vehicle."

The silence was palpable...

The general laughed his ass off, and the kid got a Challenge Coin for his quick wit and quip. He buckled up and we were off.

Everything went fine until we went up the drive to Guard Post Collier - where the drive is at a VERY steep angle, and at the top, the VERY first thing you see is a live, armed claymore mine - pointing right at you - about 6' away from the front of the vehicle. It always got reactions to be faced with "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY"!! :lol:

I enjoyed a similar story recently.
A guy is on sentry duty at some base when a car appears. The driver has a pass, but the new general in the back doesn't.
When challenged, the general insists they can drive through, but the sentry is adamant they can't.
After more yelling from the general ordering the driver to procede, the sentry goes to the back window and says, "I'm sorry, General, I'm not sure what is the correct procedure here. Do I shoot you or the driver?".

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I like free speech. It lets me know who the idiots are.

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rogue
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
...and the kid got a Challenge Coin for his quick wit and quip.

I have heard of challege coins, but I thought they were given to signify group membership. Unless the general was regularly "gotten."

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"'Cause you might enjoy some madness for awile."

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Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by rogue:
quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
...and the kid got a Challenge Coin for his quick wit and quip.

I have heard of challege coins, but I thought they were given to signify group membership. Unless the general was regularly "gotten."
Some are, but others are just given as tokens or as special awards. All depends on the coins and the person handing them out.

The tradition in my ROTC unit was that if an officer or cadet officer threw their coin down, everyone else would follow suit, and the last person to drop their coin (or to be caught without one) would pay for drinks next time.

Non-alcoholic, of course.

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This has been yet another... USELESS POST.

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ASL
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Astra:
quote:
Originally posted by rogue:
quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
...and the kid got a Challenge Coin for his quick wit and quip.

I have heard of challege coins, but I thought they were given to signify group membership. Unless the general was regularly "gotten."
Some are, but others are just given as tokens or as special awards. All depends on the coins and the person handing them out.

The tradition in my ROTC unit was that if an officer or cadet officer threw their coin down, everyone else would follow suit, and the last person to drop their coin (or to be caught without one) would pay for drinks next time.

Non-alcoholic, of course.

Ok... WTF is a challenge coin?

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Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Wikipedia entry for challenge coins

Here and here are vendor sites for some more examples.

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This has been yet another... USELESS POST.

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Greg of Winter
Xboxing Day


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quote:
Originally posted by Astra:
Some are, but others are just given as tokens or as special awards. All depends on the coins and the person handing them out.


I got one for being run over by then-current JCS chairman General Henry Shelton. Definitely one of the stranger stories on "how I got mine."

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Meanwhile, at stately Wayne Manor...

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Warlok
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Challenge "RMOs" (round metal objects) are given out for both reasons - unit membership and achievement -- there is usually one set that every members of a unit carries - i.e . the membership coin you buy for the mrale fund and a second set (usually form the commander and more elaborate) which are given out to personnel for special achievement, wit, or whatever else sets someone apart that you want to reward with more than a "thanks - good job."

I don't have a picture of my commander coins on-line, but I've given out a fair number in the last year, and every one has been well earned, well beyond a simple thank you.

Beyond the rules linked above.. .there are often rules that if you are in a unit, producing an RMO from that unit is the only acceptable response as opposed to and RMO. There is also the "game" that any RMO counts, but that recieved fromt he lowest rank buys - so folks really covet coins from senior leaders... but - note that you still have to be in the position AND do something to earn and get the RMO.

War 'BTW, non-morale RMOs are paid for out of presenters pockets, avg $5-7 each if you order 100 or more' lok [Razz]

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Inconceivable

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Warlok
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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For the AF, the governing eg is AFI 36-2903... (google it). GOs can wear whatever combo they want of authorized uniform items, but they can't make up their own items. You can get some wierd combos, but it's still uniform items...

Warlok

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Lil' Molly
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm, the OTHER import:
holy crap!
you could show up dressed like spock!!

I would SO do that. Really. (and YOMANK)

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... and now back to your regularly scheduled lurking.

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