snopes.com Post new topic  Post a reply
search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello snopes.com » Urban Legends » Military » More dischargeable offenses (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: More dischargeable offenses
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


Icon 1 posted      Profile for AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
When I was in bootcamp, those who made suicidal threats, but stayed short of attempting suicide, went to a sort of holding unit where they stayed until they recevied a psychiatric evaluation. There were many whose stays there were longer than the 9.5 weeks Navy bootcamp lasted in 1990.

If you faked it, though, there was always the danger of being charged with malingering.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
laiskuri
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


Icon 1 posted      Profile for laiskuri   E-mail laiskuri   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
A note on the .45. When I went through boot camp at San Diego waaay back in the day, we fired the .45 to familiarize us with it and to learn what a inaccurate weapon it was at more than 50 yards. We didn't even try to qualify as no one could hit squat with the .45, including our gunny.

It was explained that the very low muzzle velocity (840 feet per second, or something like that)caused the slug to tumble, or "keyhole", making it extra nasty to someone who is less than twenty feet away from the shooter.

Our instructor added that if we ever had to fire a .45 in anger we would probably wish we had a bayonet fixed to it.

Posts: 23 | From: Carson, CA | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MaxGunnar
Deck the Malls


Icon 1 posted      Profile for MaxGunnar   E-mail MaxGunnar   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
230 grn FMJ approx 840fps. The .45 is not inaccurate and the bullet does not tumble when fired from a pistol in good shape. Because of the recoil and noise, novice shooters develop a flinch quickley. Takes lots of practice to master the .45 ACP which dominated marksmanship and combat competitions for years.
Posts: 283 | From: Richmond, Virginia | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Troberg     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
The rest of NATO converted to the 5.56mm rifle vice the 7.62mm and the U.S. converted to the 9mm pistol. Smaller cartridges are cheaper.
The 5.56 was a step up in muzzle velocity, which means that it has a similar energy to the 7.62.

What people forget is how the military selects their weaponry.

* All weapons have bad sides. Select one where the bad sides are not important for us.
* Reliability. They must work at all times, even under poor conditions and bad maintenance.
* Easy to maintain. Se point above.
* Fit into the logistics chain (in other words, standardise as much as possible).

Then, after those considerations comes details like stopping power. In most cases, regardless of ammo, one hit is enough to stop the enemy from participating in further combat.

One must also remember that more powerful rounds means fewer rounds in the mag, are more prone to jam the mechanism and require more logistic crew and equipment to lug around.

A war consists of a huge heap of things that must work. Stopping power is very low on that list.

--------------------
/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Aptenodytes_Forsteriis
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Aptenodytes_Forsteriis     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by laiskuri:
A note on the .45. When I went through boot camp at San Diego waaay back in the day, we fired the .45 to familiarize us with it and to learn what a inaccurate weapon it was at more than 50 yards. We didn't even try to qualify as no one could hit squat with the .45, including our gunny.

It was explained that the very low muzzle velocity (840 feet per second, or something like that)caused the slug to tumble, or "keyhole", making it extra nasty to someone who is less than twenty feet away from the shooter.

Our instructor added that if we ever had to fire a .45 in anger we would probably wish we had a bayonet fixed to it.

Lower velocity does not have anything to do with tumble, bullet weight, shape, and far more importantly the rate of turn and number of grooves in the rifling of the barrel determine this.

All pistols are innacurate outside 50 yards, except certain long barreled hunting pistols, and they are more like stockless carbines than pistols. The .45 is no less accurate than a 9mm. Competitive practical shooters often use the smaller calibers because rapid firing a few hundred rounds of .45 in an afternoon beats up your wrists and can lead to the development of a flinch. Bullseye shooters, who slow fire for extreme accuracy, tend to use the .45.

I find it interesting that those who are most likely to use the pistol still prefer the .45 over the 9mm. Most special-ops units are now equiped with the H&K USP .45, tactical model.

Maybe it is elitist, cowboy nonsense and maybe it is because NO pistol round has an energy load sufficient to cause a hydrostatic shock effect on a human. It's all about wound cavity according to the FBI's forensic experts and a .45 inch hole is bigger than a .38 inch hole. In the civilian or law enforcement world hollowpoint rounds increase that difference.

All that said the real key is, as others have said, accuracy. A .22 to the sternum beats a .45 to the sky all day everyday.

Urey's FBI wound ballistics report

quote:
Although no cartridge is certain to work all the time, surely some will work more often than others, and any edge is desirable in one's self defense. This is simple logic. The incidence of failure to incapacitate will vary with the severity of the wound inflicted.40 It is safe to assume that if a target is always 100% destroyed, then incapacitation will also occur 100% of the time. If 50% of the target is destroyed, incapacitation will occur less reliably. Failure to incapacitate is rare in such a case, but it can happen, and in fact has happened on the battlefield. Incapacitation is still less rare if 25% of the target is destroyed. Now the magnitude of bullet destruction is far less (less than 1% of the target) but the relationship is unavoidable. The round which destroys 0.07% of the target will incapacitate more often than the one which destroys 0.04%. However, only very large numbers of shooting incidents will prove it. The difference may be only 10 out of a thousand, but that difference is an edge, and that edge should be on the officer's side because one of those ten may be the subject trying to kill him.


eta link and quote from the report

--------------------
'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite

Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MaxKaladin
The First USA Noel


Icon 1 posted      Profile for MaxKaladin   E-mail MaxKaladin   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by laiskuri:
A note on the .45. When I went through boot camp at San Diego waaay back in the day, we fired the .45 to familiarize us with it and to learn what a inaccurate weapon it was at more than 50 yards. We didn't even try to qualify as no one could hit squat with the .45, including our gunny.

It was explained that the very low muzzle velocity (840 feet per second, or something like that)caused the slug to tumble, or "keyhole", making it extra nasty to someone who is less than twenty feet away from the shooter.

Our instructor added that if we ever had to fire a .45 in anger we would probably wish we had a bayonet fixed to it.

One of my uncles was an infantry officer in the Korean War and he had a firm opinion about the .45. He used to say that the only good thing about the .45 pistol was that it was a nice, solid weapon for throwing at the at the enemy after you had emptied the magazine at him without a single hit.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
CannonFodder Global Trotter
Little Sales Drummer Boy


Icon 1 posted      Profile for CannonFodder Global Trotter   Author's Homepage   E-mail CannonFodder Global Trotter   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I have not had a great deal of pistol training, and yet with the M-9 I routinely make perfect scores during pistol marksmanship testing.

Again, like most things in the military it's a matter of economy. In this case economy of training. It takes a great deal more time and coaching to train a shooter on a .45. It takes no more time to train a soldier to use a M-9 then it does to make them an effective rifleman.

I still would prefer the power of the 45, but I don't have the time it would take to make all my soldiers as proficient with it as it would take.

--------------------
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

Posts: 2776 | From: LSA Anaconda, Iraq | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Aptenodytes_Forsteriis
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Aptenodytes_Forsteriis     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CannonFodder Global Trotter:
I have not had a great deal of pistol training, and yet with the M-9 I routinely make perfect scores during pistol marksmanship testing.

Again, like most things in the military it's a matter of economy. In this case economy of training. It takes a great deal more time and coaching to train a shooter on a .45. It takes no more time to train a soldier to use a M-9 then it does to make them an effective rifleman.

I still would prefer the power of the 45, but I don't have the time it would take to make all my soldiers as proficient with it as it would take.

I am willing to defer to your greater experience but it seems odd to me. I learned to shoot with a 1911 so I may be biased, but it is no harder to aim than a 9mm. An average strength male should have no difficulty with the recoil, I am not a superman and it is not that rough in my experience. The .45 round is just as accurate as a 9mm, .40, or 10mm. The only round, presently in military use in a pistol that has enough velocity to significantly impact accuracy is the 5.7mm FN, which in my experience is an amazingly accurate pistol cartridge, but which has a problem with over penetration (it goes through people the same way a rifle round does).

--------------------
'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite

Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
kanazawa
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


Icon 1 posted      Profile for kanazawa   E-mail kanazawa   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
For fans of the .45 auto, check out Last Man Standing, starring Bruce Willis.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116830/

Not to give too much away, but in the opening few minutes he manages to fire off (to my count anyway) 23 shots from his pair of 45s (without reloading of course) and send a guy flying some 10 feet or so into the air...

--------------------
If I say it's safe to surf this beach, then it's safe to surf this beach...

Posts: 127 | From: Cupertino, CA | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
DesertRat
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


Icon 1 posted      Profile for DesertRat     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
The intructors at TBS actually showed that scene as an attention getter at our "Intro to Marksmanship" class as an example of exactly the wrong way to fire a pistol. [Big Grin]

Although I'm not especially skilled with the 9mm (consistent pizza box on every qual), I am a far better shot with the Berreta than I am with the .45. Add me to the group that argues the .45, while dandy for stopping power, is a much less forgiving weapon than the 9mm for the "marginally skilled" shooter.

--------------------
High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler

Posts: 3402 | From: New Bern, NC | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MaxGunnar
Deck the Malls


Icon 1 posted      Profile for MaxGunnar   E-mail MaxGunnar   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
A slow hit counts more than a fast miss
Posts: 283 | From: Richmond, Virginia | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Delta-V
Xboxing Day


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Delta-V     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DesertRat:
Although I'm not especially skilled with the 9mm (consistent pizza box on every qual), I am a far better shot with the Berreta than I am with the .45. Add me to the group that argues the .45, while dandy for stopping power, is a much less forgiving weapon than the 9mm for the "marginally skilled" shooter.

Must be weak wrists! [Smile]

I'll agree, tho, the .45 is a handful. The blast and recoil is tremendous compared to the 9, so alot of people tense up more in anticipation with the .45 than the 9, and that throws off their shooting. It's hard to compare accuracy for me...I shot sharpshooter with both, but our .45's in the Guard were so old the bushings were worn out. I swear one of them had "Ithica Gun Co." on it.

--------------------
"My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere

Posts: 1225 | From: Wichita, Kansas | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
DanielCraft
I Saw Three Shipments


Icon 1 posted      Profile for DanielCraft     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
When I was in bootcamp, those who made suicidal threats, but stayed short of attempting suicide, went to a sort of holding unit where they stayed until they recevied a psychiatric evaluation. There were many whose stays there were longer than the 9.5 weeks Navy bootcamp lasted in 1990.

If you faked it, though, there was always the danger of being charged with malingering.

I went to basic training in England. On the second day one of the lance jacks pinned a razor blade to the message board in our barracks with a note next to it saying the following:

“Remember to slice straight down, not across.”

He had just given us a speech about suicide attempts to get out of training, the understanding was that slicing across the wrist was faking it, & only someone who had the balls to slit the main artery straight down was really trying to kill themselves.

To be honest he was a sick b*****d who enjoyed screwing with us on a daily basis.

--------------------
Free the West Memphis Three

Posts: 98 | From: Romford, Essex, United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post new topic  Post a reply Close topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Urban Legends Reference Pages

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2