posted
By 'traditional' definitions, the sun is, in fact, not a star.
It's a planet.
Venus is both.
Nobody uses THOSE definitions any more (except for astrologers in the first case, and poets in the second), because they are, in short, absurd by the modern definitions.
What you're talking about, however, isn't a difference in original and modern definitions.
It's a difference between a colloquial and technical definition.
That's not a defence of the idea that the sun's not a star, however. This isn't like the colloquial and technical definitions of 'theory', where the technical definition is a complete disjoint from the colloquial. The colloquial definitions of 'sun' and 'star' are both special cases of the technical meaning of 'star'.
Any adult (or high school student, or, really, anyone over the age of about 10) who doesn't know that, despite colloquial use, 'the sun' is a special case of 'star', not a separate thing is by definition, quite ignorant, and very likely the victim of an incredibly bad education (and a surprising lack of exposure to popular culture - a couple episodes of Star Trek, or Transformers would allow anyone with a little bit of reasoning ability to figure it out.).
posted
Additionally, I very much doubt that those who say the sun is not a star are really saying "I know that astronomically speaking they are the same but I choose to use an outdated meaning of the word."
I highly suspect that they really do not know that the sun is a special case of "starness", and as such should be corrected.
Never have I corrected someone and had them say, "I know that. I was referring to the traditional definition of 'star'."
-------------------- Back in the days before electricity, we were forced to watch TV by candlelight. Posts: 229 | From: Paoli, PA | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote: Main Entry: se·man·tics Pronunciation: si-'man-tiks Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction 1 : the study of meanings: a : the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development b (1) : SEMIOTIC (2) : a branch of semiotic dealing with the relations between signs and what they refer to and including theories of denotation, extension, naming, and truth 2 : GENERAL SEMANTICS 3 a : the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs; especially : connotative meaning b : the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings
posted
Even our old sun, was once a GMC, Why they changed it, I can't say... It prosesses hydrogen better that waaaaaay!
Yeah, ok, I'll stop.
-------------------- Mr. Sagan did not go too fars, If you just took the time to scan its, You'd count billions and billions of stars, And billions and billions of planets. Posts: 332 | From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
When the word "atom" was originally used by Democritus it meant "the small identical spheres which are the smallest building blocks of the universe." We now know that they are far from the smallest particles and are not identical spheres, but that doesn't mean it would be correct to say "those are not atoms." The first known usage of a word needn't be its only definition.
The sun has been included in the definition of a star since long before these people were born, it isn't as though they are clinging to the older definition and resisting change, they're just ignorant (assuming these statistics are anywhere near correct).
Posts: 417 | From: Escondido, California | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I thought the term Democritus coined was "a tom," meaning "not cuttable," to identify the smallest amount of a single element.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Either way, he used it to describe the same things we now call atoms, despite the fact that his belief in what they are was different than we know them to be. The definition of exactly what an atom is has changed, just as the definition of what a star is has.
Posts: 417 | From: Escondido, California | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Funny you should mention Democritus in the context of "atoms". He was also one of the first people recorded as realizing that other stars may be "other worlds" with their own suns and planets, etc. He even speculated that some may have and others may not have water and life, the same things we are still wondering about today.
There are many other concepts that have been thrown away, such as the idea of the four elements. It was wrong. If someone says "There are four elements: air, fire, water, earth" (or whatever they are supposed to be) he may be using the "old definition" but he's still wrong. There are not four elements. These "elements" are arbitrary. Stars and suns are one and the same. There's no need to use the old definition anymore. (I don't recommend making fun of people for the mistake, though. That doesn't help.)
Posts: 4922 | From: Kyoto, Japan | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Depending on how the question is asked, a lot of people who could otherwise be quoted as calling the sun a star might be tripped up into forgetting the fact.
For instance, 'the sun' wouldn't be the first answer to pop into a lot of people's heads when asked on the spot 'What is the closest star to earth?'.
Posts: 40 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: If I say "Did you see the beautiful stars yesterday?" most people would not think about the sun, even though they know perfectly well that it is a star (and, for that matter, that all stars are suns).
Actually not all starts are suns because in order to be a sun, a star must have a series of planets orbiting around it. In fact in high school when we were learning truisms, the first example we got was
"All suns are stars but not all stars are suns."
-------------------- "What!? Those are my graham crackers! Don't move I'm going to go find something to strike you with!" Posts: 66 | From: Baltimore, MD | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Actually not all starts are suns because in order to be a sun, a star must have a series of planets orbiting around it. In fact in high school when we were learning truisms, the first example we got was
-------------------- Mr. Sagan did not go too fars, If you just took the time to scan its, You'd count billions and billions of stars, And billions and billions of planets. Posts: 332 | From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
What I'm wondering is how we got the definition of "star" as "one of those twinkly things we see at night". I mean, was Anwndur standing next to whoever it was that coined the term when they first looked up and said: "Hmm, I think I'll make the word 'star' mean 'one of those twinkly things we see at night'." If not, then the argument is built on nothing. It's just as likely that someone pointed and said "I'm going to call those things 'stars'", and since the sun is identical to those things, it's a star. Or else, only the stars he spcifically pointed at are stars, and the rest are... something else.
In fact, if 'star' really does mean what Anwdur said it means, then the vast majority of stars aren't stars. After all, from Earth we can only see a very small number of stars. What are all the other things we see through the Hubble Telescope called, then?
Ooh! And also, are my eyes stars? They're pretty small, they've been known to twinkle, and you can see them at night, if you've got a torch. What about an aeroplane? Or indeed a planet? After all, I bet the guy who names stars didn't know at the time that some of them were planets.
Posts: 124 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ganzfeld: TMGB rocks. Thanks to TMGB, even my second-grader knows that the sun is a star.
Thanks to Blue's Clues, just about every preschooler in America knows this, too!
"Well, the Sun is a hot star, and Mercury's hot too, Mars is the red planet and Earth's home to me and you..."
Ack! Earworm!!!
Edited to make the quote clearer.
-------------------- Like every good third-in-a-series it contains a whole load of ewoks, ‘Clubber’ Lang, whey-faced Sophia Coppola, Sean Connery as the Pirate Captain’s estranged dad, a crappy CGI alien, and Richard Pryor on a donkey. -- Gideon Defoe Posts: 2211 | From: Harford County, MD | Registered: Oct 2005
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