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Author Topic: Illegal to be arrested inside your home?
Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Blue:
quote:
The smart thing to do would be to say, "No, you can't come in right now," and if they leave to get a warrant, clean up the legal activity before they come back.

Smarter still would be to clean up the illegal activity before they get back with a warrant. [Wink]
All humor aside, wouldnt they just keep a cop there until they get a warrent who would probaly notice something was up or be suspicious enough to break the door open and catch you.
Be suspicious of what? The toilet flushing?

In the cases I'm thinking of, there isn't a serious crime or prior suspicion involved. It's more like the cop comes to the door over, say, a noise complaint; asks to come in; resident says "okay," even though there's an ounce of weed on the coffee table; resident gets busted. Were the resident to refuse to let the cop in, the cop might not even consider it worth getting a warrant.

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Oceanic Aura:
Does anyone know anything about that site? Some (most, maybe all!) of the comments under that story are fairly disturbing. I could barely wade through some of the other posts.

I think this comment is a good hint:
quote:
Do you all realize that it will take violence to establish a white homeland and it will take violence to keep it? Let us not fool ourselves.


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And now for something completely different...

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Blue:
quote:
The smart thing to do would be to say, "No, you can't come in right now," and if they leave to get a warrant, clean up the legal activity before they come back.

Smarter still would be to clean up the illegal activity before they get back with a warrant. [Wink]
All humor aside, wouldnt they just keep a cop there until they get a warrent who would probaly notice something was up or be suspicious enough to break the door open and catch you.
Be suspicious of what? The toilet flushing?

In the cases I'm thinking of, there isn't a serious crime or prior suspicion involved. It's more like the cop comes to the door over, say, a noise complaint; asks to come in; resident says "okay," even though there's an ounce of weed on the coffee table; resident gets busted. Were the resident to refuse to let the cop in, the cop might not even consider it worth getting a warrant.

Kinda my point I guess. We can all agree that most cops that have suspicions that something bad is going on, they will get a warrant before going over there to prevent loss of evidence. You refuse a cops entrance for say a complaint, you may get him suspicious enough to radio it in and get a warrant.

You delay it enough to dispose of evidence, he's going to be asking questions though

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Blue:
quote:
The smart thing to do would be to say, "No, you can't come in right now," and if they leave to get a warrant, clean up the legal activity before they come back.

Smarter still would be to clean up the illegal activity before they get back with a warrant. [Wink]
All humor aside, wouldnt they just keep a cop there until they get a warrent who would probaly notice something was up or be suspicious enough to break the door open and catch you.
Be suspicious of what? The toilet flushing?

In the cases I'm thinking of, there isn't a serious crime or prior suspicion involved. It's more like the cop comes to the door over, say, a noise complaint; asks to come in; resident says "okay," even though there's an ounce of weed on the coffee table; resident gets busted. Were the resident to refuse to let the cop in, the cop might not even consider it worth getting a warrant.

Kinda my point I guess. We can all agree that most cops that have suspicions that something bad is going on, they will get a warrant before going over there to prevent loss of evidence.
But in my example, I specifically said there was no prior suspicion. I doubt the cops would routinely get a warrant before investigating a neighbor's noise complaint, just because the noisy guy might have some weed. Remember, they have to bother a judge every time they want a warrant. Do it a few times and find nothing, and you become the cop who cried wolf.

quote:
You refuse a cops entrance for say a complaint, you may get him suspicious enough to radio it in and get a warrant.
And if he walks in and sees your weed spread out on the table, he won't need a warrant.

quote:
You delay it enough to dispose of evidence, he's going to be asking questions though
So? His questions aren't enough to arrest you. The evidence would have been.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Elwood
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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It seems like there are a couple of instances locally a year where the cops are answering a noise complaint or possible domestic disturbance when they find drugs--sometimes a lot of drugs--in plain sight. If you've got a big pile of crack cocaine sitting on the coffee table, don't fight with your live-in girlfriend or throw a raucous, noisy party late at night. And if you've got a bunch of contraband in you're car, it might be prudent to obey the speed limit.

And really, is there ever a good idea to have a pile of drugs in the living room? I mean, geeze man, every teenager knows to stash the booze somewhere that mom won't find them, my parents only found mine when they replaced the floorboards, as there was a big enough hole to gently lift the carpet and stash them underneath; I was 21 by then so they only laughed. But grown adults leave hard drugs out while also drawing attention to themselves by fighting or being noisy. Perhaps the drugs have fried their brains?

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"If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006.

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Elwood
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Related: How do cops decide whether to let the petty drug possession and deals go on in hopes of catching the big fish or to prosecute everything they see that is illegal? I ask because when I first moved to my current neighborhood, drugs were dealt regularly and obviously at the street corner. In fact, my neighbor told me when I was moving in to feel free to join in with the calling of the cops on the drug deals, as they kind of liked taking turns rather than the same person calling every time. It went on for a little, with even patrol cars basically ignoring the obvious and then there were a couple of HUGE busts, probably seven-figure stockpiles in houses up the street. Then the City started enforicng the loitering statute pretty heavily and now dealing may still go on, but it's nothing like it used to be.

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"If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006.

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
But in my example, I specifically said there was no prior suspicion.
My statement wasn't intended to be a blanket statement. If cops had the belief that they would loose evidence, they would have a warrant. Otherwise, exergent circumstances can apply.

Most of the time, if a cop gets denied permission to a house after he properly has identified himself and it was something more than minor disturbances, he might hang around for further orders (such as, a warrants' on the way, get 'em). If it was a minor thing, he would keep pestering him until his point was made. If the guy leaves the dope lying around, thats his own fault. However if the cop hears "Dang! Its the cops, flush the crack down the toilet" He would have reason to enter.

Most people though, unless they knew they were going to get arrested, would answer the door for a cop.

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Elwood:
Related: How do cops decide whether to let the petty drug possession and deals go on in hopes of catching the big fish or to prosecute everything they see that is illegal? I ask because when I first moved to my current neighborhood, drugs were dealt regularly and obviously at the street corner. In fact, my neighbor told me when I was moving in to feel free to join in with the calling of the cops on the drug deals, as they kind of liked taking turns rather than the same person calling every time. It went on for a little, with even patrol cars basically ignoring the obvious and then there were a couple of HUGE busts, probably seven-figure stockpiles in houses up the street. Then the City started enforicng the loitering statute pretty heavily and now dealing may still go on, but it's nothing like it used to be.

I guess its how dependable the information is, what they can offer, and what kind of a statement that the cops/district attorney wants to make.

A cop can release a suspect from a minor offense if they help them out, but thats probably somewhat under the discretion of the officer (he can still get in trouble for it).

It all depends on the situation

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
[QUOTE] Most of the time, if a cop gets denied permission to a house after he properly has identified himself and it was something more than minor disturbances, he might hang around for further orders (such as, a warrants' on the way, get 'em).

Is "warrant on the way" really good enough? Doesn't the warrant have to be there?

quote:
If the guy leaves the dope lying around, thats his own fault.
Duh. Who said it was anybody else's fault?

quote:
However if the cop hears "Dang! Its the cops, flush the crack down the toilet" He would have reason to enter.
Why would they say that? Why wouldn't they just flush it? I'd like to see the cop explain to the judge that he had exigent circumstances to enter the home because somebody flushed the toilet before they answered the door. If the crackhead says, "Dude, I was taking a crap when he knocked," how is anybody going to prove differently?

quote:
Most people though, unless they knew they were going to get arrested, would answer the door for a cop.
Who said they wouldn't? I said people sometimes let cops come into the house when it is not in their best interest to do so. Some people also talk to the cops without a lawyer when it's not in their best interest to do so.

ETA: You also seem to be assuming the resident knows, when they hear the knock or the doorbell, that it's the cops. That's not always the case. Maybe they're expecting their friend Joe, and they just open the door.

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Arriah
The First USA Noel


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There was (what I consider) a rather classic video on Wildest Police Videos a while back. During a basic traffic stop, I believe for low level speeding, the officer asked the driver if he could search the car. The officer told the guy that he was free to refuse, it was totally voluntary and the guy said yes. The officer asked the man to wait in the back of the police car while he did the search, the man went quite willingly to the car, sat down and closed the door.

When the officer got to the trunk, the man in the car started crying and swearing at himself because there was something like 2 pounds of pot there. That may be a decent example of what you're talking about.

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Conforming meant that everyone liked you except yourself
Rebecca

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Arriah:
There was (what I consider) a rather classic video on Wildest Police Videos a while back. During a basic traffic stop, I believe for low level speeding, the officer asked the driver if he could search the car. The officer told the guy that he was free to refuse, it was totally voluntary and the guy said yes. The officer asked the man to wait in the back of the police car while he did the search, the man went quite willingly to the car, sat down and closed the door.

When the officer got to the trunk, the man in the car started crying and swearing at himself because there was something like 2 pounds of pot there. That may be a decent example of what you're talking about.

Yes!

Another example, which I read about years ago, was a cop who came to a dorm room looking for Resident A, who was not home. Resident B answered the door. The cop asked to come in (maybe to wait for Resident A), and Resident B said yes. The cop then saw Resident B's paraphernalia and/or drugs and busted him. If Resident B had been protecting his own interest, he would have said, "Sorry, now's not a good time." If he had, it is possible the cop would think, "Hmmm, I wonder why he won't let me in," but it's unlikely, IMO, that he'd try to get a warrant, let alone that a judge would issue one, based simply on the fact that the guy doesn't want the cop to come in.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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pinqy
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Side note...an external canine sniff is not a search. During a legitimate traffic stop, even without reasonable suspicion, the cops can have a dog sniff the exterior as long as it takes place during the normal course of the stop (approx 20 minutes). To detain the vehicle longer requires reasonable suspicion. Refusal of consent is not enough for reasonable suspicion, but if they can get a dog there quick enough, they don't need it.

pinqy

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Mr. Furious
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Every time I see this topic in AT, I read it as "Illegals to be arrested inside your home?" and I think "What?!?! Where?!?!"

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"He's not gonna let me in, I'm Mr. Dirty Mouth!"
- Jeffrey Coho (Craig Bierko), Boston Legal

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Laine, I would hope that people who would have drug stuff just lying around wouldn't just open the door for anybody regardless if they were expecting anything). Besides, if its serious enough, cops would identify themselves.

I should expand on my continued usage to getting a warrant. If a cop gets suspicious, I would hope thats enough to investigate further until they have enough. I was implying that they would already have enough evidence where they just need to deliver a warrant to the scene,

And for the record I can picture somebody at the door saying to get rid of the crack, if multiple people are in the room and the area they are smoking said crack is in plain view of an open door, and they are not too smart...

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
Laine, I would hope that people who would have drug stuff just lying around wouldn't just open the door for anybody regardless if they were expecting anything).

Let me clarify: when I say that they act against their own best interests, I intend to imply that they are not very bright. If they were, they wouldn't act against their own best interests, whether by leaving drugs lying around, or by opening the door when drugs are lying around, or by inviting the cops in when it would be smarter not to.

quote:
Besides, if its serious enough, cops would identify themselves.
And if it's not, they wouldn't. When a cop came to my door trying to figure out whether the barking dog someone had complained about was mine (it wasn't), he didn't identify himself. When a cop came to the door looking for one of my college roommates because she hadn't called home and her family was worried, he didn't identify himself. In both cases, they simply knocked on the door.

quote:
I was implying that they would already have enough evidence where they just need to deliver a warrant to the scene,
And that was exactly the type of case I was not talking about, obviously, because once they have the warrant, not letting them in ceases to be a practical option.

quote:
And for the record I can picture somebody at the door saying to get rid of the crack, if multiple people are in the room and the area they are smoking said crack is in plain view of an open door, and they are not too smart...
And in that case, they'd probably get caught. But that doesn't mean that the other scenario I described can't or doesn't happen.

My initial point was that sometimes people allow cops into the house, when they don't need to, despite the fact that doing so is not in their own best interest. Do you really believe that's impossible? If so, do you also have trouble believing that people sometimes talk to the cops without an attorney when it's not in their own best interest to do so?

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
My initial point was that sometimes people allow cops into the house, when they don't need to, despite the fact that doing so is not in their own best interest. Do you really believe that's impossible?
Absolutely not, the amount of dumb criminal stories and the amount of people who believe they will never be caught make me believe that this is very possible. I'm not arguing that and I don't believe I ever did that.

quote:
If so, do you also have trouble believing that people sometimes talk to the cops without an attorney when it's not in their own best interest to do so?
I have no trouble believing that, Im sure that it happens all the time.

I think some where along the line the intent of our argument got mis-interpreted. so lets agree on a few things....

* It's most certainly no law preventing cops from arresting criminals inside their own homes, There are exergent circumstances that allow for cops to enter criminals houses, along with plain sight allowances that if a criminals with illegal stuff in plain sight can let the cop in.

* If a cop gets refused permission to enter a house or if somebody refuses to speak to a cop, its enough for a cop to be suspicious. Weather that suspicion leads to a warrant, is a separate issue.

* Cops generally identify themselves before breaking in the house they have a valid warrant to enter - We don't need to discuss the reason for that. Not always.

* If a cop waits at the scene, there is a reason for it, weather he's deterring action somehow, or he's waiting for further instructions on what to do. It happens, the reason for it is not all that relevant.

* Stupid criminals are out there.

Laine, I think we can agree on these things. I think were getting too focussed on the nitty gritty details that are way outside of the bounds of the original topic. I don't want you to think I disagree with you or think your wrong. I actually think we agree with each other. Truce??

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
Laine, I would hope that people who would have drug stuff just lying around wouldn't just open the door for anybody regardless if they were expecting anything).

I have, in fact, seen people do just that. On more than one occasion. Luckily for them, it was never a cop.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
Laine, I would hope that people who would have drug stuff just lying around wouldn't just open the door for anybody regardless if they were expecting anything).

I have, in fact, seen people do just that. On more than one occasion. Luckily for them, it was never a cop.
A roommate & I were looking for an apartment and we were given a tour of one place by the owner. The owner called the people in the place (they were leaving at the end of the month) and told them we were coming by. They said, "Come on by".

When we got there, they had this pile of bulb like plant parts (Hash?, I'n not really good with my exotic drugs) on the coffee table. The landlord asked us if we knew what that stuff was. My roommate told him what it was (he was "up" on his illegal drugs).

The landlord thanked us and said that if we wanted to move in early, he was quite sure they would be out within 24 hours. I think he called the police when he got back to his office.

We did get to move in early...

--------------------
And now for something completely different...

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Lainie
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Diddy, we can make a truce if you agree to spell "exigent" correctly. [Smile]

I'm not entirely comfortable, though, with the idea that refusing to let a cop in would automatically make him suspicious. What's the point of having the right to refuse entry to your home if doing so automatically leads to suspicion? Maybe I just don't want to let anybody in my house at that point in time. Maybe I just got the baby to sleep, or my lover's lying naked on the couch, or the place is a mess.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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pinqy
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quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
* If a cop gets refused permission to enter a house or if somebody refuses to speak to a cop, its enough for a cop to be suspicious.

Legally, youre wrong...cops cannot use refuse to search/enter as probable cause or reasonable suspicion. In reality, they'll think very hard on finding some legitimate reason.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
* If a cop gets refused permission to enter a house or if somebody refuses to speak to a cop, its enough for a cop to be suspicious.

Legally, youre wrong...cops cannot use refuse to search/enter as probable cause or reasonable suspicion. In reality, they'll think very hard on finding some legitimate reason.

pinqy

I wasnt talking about legally though, He can be suspicious all he want to any degree, doesnt mean its ever going to go anywhere if it even happens. Suspicion is just that suspicion, its not equal to reasonable casue.

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
Diddy, we can make a truce if you agree to spell "exigent" correctly. [Smile]

Agreed, I typed this up a work and was unable to find the correct spelling.

quote:
I'm not entirely comfortable, though, with the idea that refusing to let a cop in would automatically make him suspicious. What's the point of having the right to refuse entry to your home if doing so automatically leads to suspicion? Maybe I just don't want to let anybody in my house at that point in time. Maybe I just got the baby to sleep, or my lover's lying naked on the couch, or the place is a mess.
That would depend largly on the cop I guess amd depending on how you would define "suspicious". I could concede on that point though.

Agreed on the truce. [procedes to shakes Lainie's hand]

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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Amigone201
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
That would depend largly on the cop I guess amd depending on how you would define "suspicious". I could concede on that point though.

It would depend on a lot more than the cop. A judge will have to review the cop's actions later, and possibly even hold an evidentiary hearing. That officer had better be damn sure he has probable cause before starting a warrantless search.

If you can spare the time--especially if it's in someone's house, it's probably a far safer bet to run and get a warrant, because any good defense attorney will rip your "probable cause" to pieces if there's any doubt.

If a cop suspects someone is keeping a hostage in his basement and might hurt or kill the hostage if something isn't done immediately, I'd say it's worth going in. But if you're following up a drug "suspicion," well for Heaven's sake, go get a warrant! The worst thing that will happen is they destroy the evidence before you get there. One way or another, the junkies get rid of their drugs and they walk; the only difference is the cop spares himself a reprimand if he follows the book.

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Amigone201:
quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
That would depend largly on the cop I guess amd depending on how you would define "suspicious". I could concede on that point though.

It would depend on a lot more than the cop. A judge will have to review the cop's actions later, and possibly even hold an evidentiary hearing. That officer had better be damn sure he has probable cause before starting a warrantless search.

If you can spare the time--especially if it's in someone's house, it's probably a far safer bet to run and get a warrant, because any good defense attorney will rip your "probable cause" to pieces if there's any doubt.

If a cop suspects someone is keeping a hostage in his basement and might hurt or kill the hostage if something isn't done immediately, I'd say it's worth going in. But if you're following up a drug "suspicion," well for Heaven's sake, go get a warrant! The worst thing that will happen is they destroy the evidence before you get there. One way or another, the junkies get rid of their drugs and they walk; the only difference is the cop spares himself a reprimand if he follows the book.

I completley agree, always safer to get a warrennt unless a life is in the balence or other extreme cases.

But your right, in the end, all the evidence in the world doesnt mean squat if a judge doesnt allow it if it was gained ilegally.

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MattG
I Saw Three Shipments


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From what I was taught, if a cop can swing it legally and safely, get the person in the house, then you can search the area within immediate reach of the suspect and if you really lucky you can do whats called a protective sweep of the residence to check for other people that may be hiding. In that sweep you can't open drawers or anywhere that a person couldn't reasonably hide, however these sweeps are apparently pretty easy to justify.
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Dark Blue
The First USA Noel


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quote:
But what does it take for you to be allowed to enter the home? There must be some kind of strong reason to believe a crime is being committed?

Invitation or some sort of indication from resident to enter, consent to enter, exigent circumstances (this covers A LOT of ground), to stop a crime in progress, serve a search warrant, serve an arrest warrant, and hot pursuit are the ones that immedately come to mind.

quote:
What gets some people into trouble, as I alluded to before, is that they foolishly let the cops in when they ask permission, despite their being evidence of illegal activity
Frequently

quote:
We can all agree that most cops that have suspicions that something bad is going on, they will get a warrant before going over there to prevent loss of evidence.
No. Getting a warrant is not typically a simple task. If they're "suspicious" they may fall back on situation above working. If they have "probable cause" they will get a warrant and go to the address to serve it.

It never goes "Hey since your heading to 1234 Dumb St. get a warrant, cause I have a hunch they might be hitting the crack pipe.

It would be "Hey, you going over to 1234 Dumb St. see if you can get into the house. I have a hunch they are hitting the crack pipe.

Or

"We just got this search warrant for 1234 Dumb St. cause they got all sorts of crack up in there. Get the SWAT team and lets go pay them a visit.

quote:
If you've got a big pile of crack cocaine sitting on the coffee table, don't fight with your live-in girlfriend
Oh please do, because a lot of time exigent circumstances let me enter the home in this situation even if you stand at your door and say "You can't come in."

quote:
Most people though, unless they knew they were going to get arrested, would answer the door for a cop.

Most but a lot still don't. Some people just don't like cops.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However if the cop hears "Dang! Its the cops, flush the crack down the toilet" He would have reason to enter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why would they say that? Why wouldn't they just flush it?

For the same reason they say "Sure come on in" when the meth is sitting out on the coffee table.

quote:
Laine, I would hope that people who would have drug stuff just lying around wouldn't just open the door for anybody regardless if they were expecting anything).
Yet they do.

quote:
If a cop gets refused permission to enter a house or if somebody refuses to speak to a cop, its enough for a cop to be suspicious.
Man, we are always suspicious. I'm suspicious of the girl scout down the street selling evil in a $3.00 box. I'm suspicious of the 80 year old guy that takes his dog for a walk in the park every day. I'm suspicious of everything.

quote:
Laine, I would hope that people who would have drug stuff just lying around wouldn't just open the door for anybody regardless if they were expecting anything).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have, in fact, seen people do just that. On more than one occasion. Luckily for them, it was never a cop

I've seen people do just that also. Not so lucky for them.

quote:
I'm not entirely comfortable, though, with the idea that refusing to let a cop in would automatically make him suspicious.
Oh it would make me suspicious. Not that I would do anything else, but be suspicious...sure.

quote:
Maybe I just got the baby to sleep, or my lover's lying naked on the couch, or the place is a mess.

Or maybe the drugs and fradulent IDs are lying about because your wanted brother-in-law didn't stash them with the illegal weapons in the closet.....hence the suspicion.

quote:
It would depend on a lot more than the cop. A judge will have to review the cop's actions later, and possibly even hold an evidentiary hearing. That officer had better be damn sure he has probable cause before starting a warrantless search.
We're just talking about good ole fashion human suspicion. Not any legal defintions, and nobody said anything about cops searching based on suspicion, just that we have it....a lot.

quote:
any good defense attorney will rip your "probable cause" to pieces if there's any doubt.
But as long as you know what you're doing you don't have to worry about it. I've never been afraid to let a defense attorney look at anything I've done, because I'm good at what I do, and know I've done it right. If I did something based on PC, then it's there. Don't leave any doubts for the attorney to shred into and you'll sleep good at night.

quote:
From what I was taught, if a cop can swing it legally and safely, get the person in the house, then you can search the area within immediate reach of the suspect
You still have to be able to articulate a reasonable "fear" that the person might have a weapon to do this.

quote:
and if you really lucky you can do whats called a protective sweep of the residence to check for other people that may be hiding.
You don't have to be really lucky to do this, it's pretty common. I did two tonight.

DB

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I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. -- On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs by LTC. Dave Grossman, USA (Ret)

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Blue:
quote:
I'm not entirely comfortable, though, with the idea that refusing to let a cop in would automatically make him suspicious.
Oh it would make me suspicious. Not that I would do anything else, but be suspicious...sure.
Normal human suspicion I have no problem with. My brother's a cop; I understand the "suspect everything" perspective. But my point was that if simply refusing entrance were enough reason to seek a warrant (which it clearly isn't), the right to refuse entry would be meaningless.

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Blue:
quote:
I'm not entirely comfortable, though, with the idea that refusing to let a cop in would automatically make him suspicious.
Oh it would make me suspicious. Not that I would do anything else, but be suspicious...sure.
Normal human suspicion I have no problem with. My brother's a cop; I understand the "suspect everything" perspective. But my point was that if simply refusing entrance were enough reason to seek a warrant (which it clearly isn't), the right to refuse entry would be meaningless.
Well I don't know if couldn't actually get the warrant. He might ask the judge, and they would outright deny the cop. Im just saying... I really have no idea.

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I don't understand what you mean. If the judge says no, the cop doesn't get the warrant.

And if he makes too many requests with insufficient evidence, he damages his credibility with the judge. Judges, IME, don't like being jerked around.

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
I don't understand what you mean. If the judge says no, the cop doesn't get the warrant.

And if he makes too many requests with insufficient evidence, he damages his credibility with the judge. Judges, IME, don't like being jerked around.

You said exactly what I was trying to. He can try all he wants to get a warrant. Without anything to back his suspicion (like evidence) up, pretty much guarantees a denial. I would agree with you 100% you said exactly what I had wanted to.

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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Amigone201
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Blue:
any good defense attorney will rip your "probable cause" to pieces if there's any doubt.

But as long as you know what you're doing you don't have to worry about it. I've never been afraid to let a defense attorney look at anything I've done, because I'm good at what I do, and know I've done it right. If I did something based on PC, then it's there. Don't leave any doubts for the attorney to shred into and you'll sleep good at night.
Haha, when I graduate out of here and become a prosecutor, I want to work in your jurisdiction. But no way in Hell I'm moving to Arizona!

Nonetheless, you sound like a great cop, DB.

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MattG
I Saw Three Shipments


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DB I guess lucky was the wrong word choice seeing as the way it was taught to me almost anything can be used to justify a sweep:) thanks for the back up though.
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Deranged LunaTech
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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I think it really comes down to this...

As far as I know, nothing actually prevents you from being arrested in your home, in and of itself.

However, there are limitations to the situations where police can enter your home. For police to enter you home, there has to be any combination of:

1. Warrant
2. "Clear and present" safety/crime in progress issue
3. Invitation

These situations prevent the police from just showing up and saying they are going to search your house. 1 and 3 cover due process of law (to get a warrant the police must show sufficient probable cause to get a judge to sigh a warrant, invitation is basically you waiving your right to that due process), number 2 covers imminent public safety.

If the police are in your house under any of those conditions, you can be arrested (if necessity exists, of course).

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kittykittykitty
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Interesting thread.

I know a young man who went out on the balcony of his apartment and flipped the finger to a couple of cops who were walking by. The cops went into his apartment and arrested him and took him to jail.

I'm still not sure if they had a legal right to barge into his apartment and arrest him.

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Graham
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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During a quiet period at work a friend told me of a case (I think it was in Florida) where a woman called the cops and asked them to arrest her (drunken) husband.

When they got there they were told he was inside and the cops responded that they couldn't arrest him.

The wife then dragged the man out into the street where the cops busted him for 'public intoxication' and 'indecent exposure' because his pants fell off while he was being dragged out the door.

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