posted
Times sure have changed since I was in school then, Page Three When I was in school we only learned about the Third Reich and WW II in history lessons. And we were taught that germans are responsible for what happened back then. It didn't matter that the pupils in class were born at least 21 years after the end of the war or that our parents were children during that time. "We" germans were responsible for what happened, "we" germans were taught to be ashamed and "we" germans inherited the shame and would have to live with the legacy of the Third Reich.
No wonder it took the germans so long to wave german flags during a World Cup without feeling guilty
Gavida
-------------------- "He looked bigger when I couldn't see him" - Jayne Cobb Posts: 359 | From: Essen, NRW, Germany | Registered: Jul 2005
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I have nothing to add to what has been said about the legal situation in Germany apart from the information that under the same law ("symbols of illegal organisations") the hammer-and-sickle symbol and the raised fist are forbidden as symbols of the German Communist Party, outlawed in 1956.
There is a recent debate about the legality of the use of Nazi symbols for purposes other than glorifying the Nazi era, since police and public prosecuters in some south German towns started seizing posters et al. showing the slogan "Stop Nazis" and a crossed-out swastika. To me (and most commentators), this use is most definitly legal under § 86 German Penal Code, but court cases are pending.
Don Enrico
-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:I have nothing to add to what has been said about the legal situation in Germany apart from the information that under the same law ("symbols of illegal organisations") the hammer-and-sickle symbol and the raised fist are forbidden as symbols of the German Communist Party, outlawed in 1956.
Does this apply to former East Germany as well?
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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While East Germany was the GDR (German Democratic Republic), hammer and sickle where by no means illegal, but the prodly displaid symbols of the socialist brothers in the Sowjet Union (as well as in other socialist states). When what used to be the GDR became part of the FRG (Federal Republic of Germany), all West-German laws applied to East Germany as well, so hammer and sickle became illegal.
By now, the only European state that still has hammer and sickle as part of it's coat of arms is Austria.
-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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Did FRG take West German law completely, or was it a mix of East and West? Was there any problems or confusion about it?
Sorry for going off topic, but the subject of changing/overlapping laws interests me as I see it in my work and am affected by it as our software has to take that into account.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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The (eastern) GDR "joined" the (western) FRG on October 3, 1990. From that day on, generally all western laws took effect in eastern Germany as well. "Generally", because some differences had been agreed upon beforehand. The "Einigungsvertrag" (unification treaty) was passed as a law in both German states and ruled things like how to deal with land- and property-claims by former owners disseized under Sowjet or GDR rule or how to take different living conditions into account in regard to wages and rents. To this day, workers in the five new German Länder in most sectors earn less for the same work than their western colleagues.
The "Einigungsvertrag" at the same time made Berlin (unified from former East- and West-Berlin) capital of the Federal Republic of Germany, ceased the existence of all departments of the GDR gouvernment and rehabilitated all victims of political justice in the former GDR.
The unification process caused a lot of problems, not all of them solved today. Among them, disputing claims to property were especially hard to work out.
-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Don Enrico: rehabilitated all victims of political justice in the former GDR.
I prefer the term "political injustice" But since it was "justice" in the GDR based on the then valid laws I guess it is just a personal opinion.
I do remember the trouble regarding the "Mauerschützen" (wall shooter), the members of the NVA (Nationale Volksarmee = National People's Army, Army of the GDR) who shot east german citizens who tried to flee from to the FGR. The defense stated that one can not be punished for something he did when the law prohibiting this action was not in effect at that moment. The shooters killed fleeing people under east german law and on order of their superiors. When the wall came down and Germany was reunited these laws became obsolete and west german laws came into effect. The shootings occured before that. But the leaders of the NVA and the politians responsible for the shooting order were prosecuted, as were the shooters themselves.
The statement made by the defense was bypassed with the reason that the prosecution of those responsible was justified because of a severe violation of human rights, since the shooters must have realized that the "Schießbefehl" (shooting or firing order) violated human rights and therefore should have disobeyed it. (It is always easy to say "they should have disobeyed" when you do not live in an oppressive system yourself though...)
Sorry that my english knowledge and ability to translate lawyer's german into lawyer's english are not good enough to go into depth here, so this is only a very short version of the "Mauerschützen" problem
Gavida ETClarify a sentence that made even less sense before
-------------------- "He looked bigger when I couldn't see him" - Jayne Cobb Posts: 359 | From: Essen, NRW, Germany | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I do remember the trouble regarding the "Mauerschützen" (wall shooter), the members of the NVA (Nationale Volksarmee = National People's Army, Army of the GDR) who shot east german citizens who tried to flee from to the FGR. The defense stated that one can not be punished for something he did when the law prohibiting this action was not in effect at that moment.
Well, as much as I disagree with the shootings, I have to agree with the defense. The very principle of the legal systems is based on the rule that you can never be condemned for something that was legal when it was done. The basis for this is of course that you should have a reasonable chance of knowing that it's illegal before committing the crime.
If we let go of that principle, we open up a door to some really dangerous territory. I think that even (or perhaps especially) the victims in these shootings would agree with that.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by gorecki: It's a *bad* period of history that should be forgotten, and hope that nothing of the kind will ever happen again
Why should it be forgotten? Why "hope" when we can learn from the lessons of the past.
At least theoretically. Bosnia and Darfur suggest we haven't gotten the hang of it yet.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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"Why should it be forgotten? Why "hope" when we can learn from the lessons of the past.
At least theoretically. Bosnia and Darfur suggest we haven't gotten the hang of it yet."
That's very true, I understand what you are saying, shame on me for not highlighting that important point.
What I was trying to raise was the fact that there are some things that people should never want to remember, my country (and countless others) was ruined on the basis of one persons' sick and grotesque vision.
I've seen the smug narrow-mindedness of Polish Neo-Nazism on the streets, the fighting and the sheer stupidity of attacking foreign and coloured tourists/people.
If that is people willing to learn from past mistakes, then I'll eat my underwear...
Kindest regards, Stefanosz
-------------------- Niebios Przeczysta królowo, ty zawse wspieraj mnie >>> Zdrowaš Mario Posts: 37 | From: Poland | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: Well, as much as I disagree with the shootings, I have to agree with the defense. The very principle of the legal systems is based on the rule that you can never be condemned for something that was legal when it was done. The basis for this is of course that you should have a reasonable chance of knowing that it's illegal before committing the crime.
If we let go of that principle, we open up a door to some really dangerous territory. I think that even (or perhaps especially) the victims in these shootings would agree with that.
The court reasoned that the punishment was not based on a law that wasn't effective when the shootings occured, it based the punishment on the rason of severe violations against human rights. They stated that the shooters themselves should have disobeyed the orders because it was obvious.
Of course the shooters could have disobeyed the firing order because of severe violation of human rights. But they would have had to face severe punishment for that through the system, so I guess the decision was a hard one. And if the shooters had family themselves it would have been even tougher.
Where does the sense for unjustness end and the instinct of self-preservation start? Like I said before, I think it is easy to take the high road and say something like that when you never lived in an oppressive system yourself.
I have no problem with punishing the people that *gave* the order, since they definetly should have know that it is a violation of human rights. I do have a problem with punishing the people that had to carry out the order because otherwise they would have been treated as traitors and punished like them.
Gavida
-------------------- "He looked bigger when I couldn't see him" - Jayne Cobb Posts: 359 | From: Essen, NRW, Germany | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: One Swedish actor (Hans Alfredson), who have often taken a public anti-nazi stand, plays the father of Picasso in the movie "The Adventures of Picasso" (an excellent light comedy if you know something about Picasso, truly a Swedish classic, both intelligent humour and some unexpected visual jokes). During the occupation of France, that character is a nazi collaborator, but the actor did not want to say "Heil Hitler!", so if you listen carefully, he actually say "Halv liter!" (half liter) instead.
Sorry, but you really got it backwards. All "dialogue" in that film consists of gibberish, albeit constructed from real words or said in languages that most people wouldn't understand, in a way that half of the fun is identifying what is really being said. Eg there is a German officer going by the rank of Hauptbahnhof. It sounds very German (which it is) and very impressive but isn't. I suppose you also remember young Picasso's Finnish fiancée. The greeting her father said, makkara, means sausage and the song she sang is in reality a recipe for kalakukku, a Finnish fish pastry.
-------------------- Små hönor skall inte lägga stora ägg för då blir de slarviga i ändan Posts: 1334 | From: Sweden | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
quote:Originally posted by Andrew of Ware, England: I have heard that swastikas can be used in Germany for stage productions and for re-enactments (e.g. for television). In Britain there do not seem to be any restrictions as I have seen Second World War re-enacting groups include 'Germans' iun correct uniforms for their displays.
Oh, and many 11th and 12th century churches in England have swastikas as part of their decorations. I believe the design predates the Christian cross.
You'll see it all over India too, although the arms are often reversed from the Nazi version.
Not, reversed but straightened, like it should be . Pointing east, west, north, south Hindu swastika
quote: It was a symbol used by, amongst others, the Mughals.
Not in the beggining, but as time went by they did incorporate the Hindu symbol into their architecture. In fact, many Maratha rulers who fiercely defended their regimes agains the Mughal invasion would use Swastika on their coins to diffrentiate themselves from the Muslim rulers.
quote: It symbolized, IIRC, 'the wheel of life'.
Not really (although you might interpret it that way) It symbolizes holiness and natural evolution. It's symbolises that the natural order of the universe causes everything to change. It's a symbol of constant change and growth
-------------------- Nico Sasha In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel. Posts: 4912 | From: VA | Registered: Jul 2003
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Now that you say it, it sparked my memory, and you are probably right. It was at least 20 years since I saw it, so I'll use that as an excuse. I'll really have to try to find that movie again, it's truly brilliant.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Floater: Eg there is a German officer going by the rank of Hauptbahnhof. It sounds very German (which it is) and very impressive but isn't.
My German's a bit rusty, but doesn't that mean 'Head Train Station'?
I saw the WWII Disney cartoon 'Der Fuehrer's Face' the other day...It should have won an award for 'most gratuitous use of swastikas' (along with it's Academy Award). Not just stamped on everything, but the alarm clock, the trees, the windmill...
-------------------- "My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere Posts: 1225 | From: Wichita, Kansas | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Floater: Eg there is a German officer going by the rank of Hauptbahnhof. It sounds very German (which it is) and very impressive but isn't.
My German's a bit rusty, but doesn't that mean 'Head Train Station'?
I saw the WWII Disney cartoon 'Der Fuehrer's Face' the other day...It should have won an award for 'most gratuitous use of swastikas' (along with it's Academy Award). Not just stamped on everything, but the alarm clock, the trees, the windmill...
A more idiomatic translation of Hauptbahnhof would be "central railway station." ;-)
*makes note to find this "Der Fuehrer's Face" cartoon because it sounds hilarious*
Best, Tim
Posts: 61 | From: Bayonne, NJ | Registered: Aug 2006
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"Hauptbahnhof" is indeed "central (railway) station". "Haupt" in German equals (mostly) the English "main", but it is used in military and police ranks a lot to mark a senior officer. The superior of a police "Kommissar" (inspector) would be a "Hauptkommissar". Nazi Germany used ranks like that, too (for example "Hauptsturmbannführer"), so giving "Hauptbahnhof" as a German military rank will sound right to most non-Germans at first.
-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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To add: As I had my 10 month tour of Duty in the Bundeswehr ((West) German Army) I was told in our "Political Education" that we have the duty to refuse any order that would violate the consitution or morals or laws. As example: Firing on unarmed civilians, raping, plundering, etc. And for the rank of "Hauptbahnhof" it sounds a bit like "Hauptman" (Army Captain).
-------------------- ~Reality, the refuge of those who fail in RPGs~ aka Darkfist Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Posts: 334 | From: Lancaster, Ohio | Registered: Dec 2005
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Rob D, how did you end up in Lancaster, Ohio, when you obviously are / used to be a German citicen?
Just curious,
Don Enrico
-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by TimK: *makes note to find this "Der Fuehrer's Face" cartoon because it sounds hilarious*
Definitely. Donald Duck has a nightmare he's in 'Nutzi' Germany. Disney finally released it from the 'Vault' a couple of years ago on DVD, along with "Education for Death - The Making of a Nazi" (Disney's darkest cartoon ever), and "Victory Through Air Power" (Which is said to have convinced FDR to back Strategic Bombing), all of which Disney had previously said they would never release to homve video. It also has several WWII Disney shorts ("Donald Duck Gets Drafted", etc), and some educational clips they did (The Seven Dwarves fight malaria!). The DVD set is called Walt Disney Treasures - On the Front Lines.
quote:Originally posted by Don Enrico: Nazi Germany used ranks like that, too (for example "Hauptsturmbannführer"), so giving "Hauptbahnhof" as a German military rank will sound right to most non-Germans at first.
I guess you're right, most people would not have gotten that. All SS ranks ended with "führer" ("Hauptsturmführer" for "Captain"), I guess so they'd feel closer to "Der Führer" and his cult of "Führer-worship" ("We Heil! Heil! Right in der Führer's face!"). Wehrmacht ranks were more or less what they are today ("Hauptman", etc), which are fairly similar to US Army ranks.
-------------------- "My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere Posts: 1225 | From: Wichita, Kansas | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Nazi Germany used ranks like that, too (for example "Hauptsturmbannführer"), so giving "Hauptbahnhof" as a German military rank will sound right to most non-Germans at first.
It also depends a lot on how it's delivered. If it's barked by a military guy in uniform in fake German, even nürnburgerbratwurst would sound like a legitimate rank.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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HP sauce bottles used to (and maybe still do) have the ingrediants in German and reading those makes you end up doing an impersonation of Hitler. I sometimes wonder that if German sounded like French whether Hitler's speeches would ever have had the same impact.
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
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Don't know about French, but I've heard English translations and they come across just fine (shudder). It's all in the delivery, like Peter Sellers as Dr. Strangelove singing the Beatles She Loves You (Ja, Ja, Ja).
-------------------- "My neighbor asked why anyone would need a car that can go 190 mph. If the answer isn't obvious, and explaination won't help." - Csabe Csere Posts: 1225 | From: Wichita, Kansas | Registered: Nov 2003
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Michigan Girl
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales
posted
A bit OT, but what exactly does heil mean?
Michigan "Obviously not a German speaker although I can count in it" Girl
-------------------- ~ Yep, I'm in Michigan ~ My blog http://catsrule2k.blogspot.com/ I am not willing to give up my constitutional freedoms just because I have nothing to hide Posts: 142 | From: Michigan | Registered: Aug 2006
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When used in a combination like "Heil Hitler", "Heil" is basically equivalent to "Hail", as in "Hail to the King". Other meanings are "salvation" and - as an adjectiv - "complete", "in order" or "unbroken".
Don "eins, zwei, drei..." Enrico
-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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It's a rather solemn form of salute, which you find in english as "hail to". So, it's "Hail to Hitler".
Further, the german adjective "heil" means "safe, in good health", and the german verb "heilen" means "to heal". So I guess the deeper meaning is "long live Hitler".
There was a joke about that double meaning. Two german psychiatrists meet in a Berlin street in 1936. One says "Heil Hitler !" (which also can mean "heal Hitler"), whereupon his colleague answer "Heil du ihn." (which translates into "nope - you heal him").
-------------------- Desperate, but not serious. Posts: 689 | From: Confoederatio Helvetica | Registered: Sep 2005
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-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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Alex Buchet
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales
posted
A free download from YouTube of "Der Fuehrer's Face:
posted
Bugs Bunny sang a song called "Any Bonds Today?" on tv back when I was young. (Long time ago) It must have been during the Korean War.
I heard a version of it, not by Bugs, that referred to WWII. It was quite patriotic and I'm pretty sure Irving Berlin wrote it.
"First came the Czechs, and then came the Poles, and then the Norwegians, with three million souls. Next came the Balkans, then Belgium and France, they fell every one, with hardly a chance..."
Quite a history lesson there. I wonder if the song was ever done as a cartoon.
Posts: 161 | From: California | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Major D. Saster: It's a rather solemn form of salute, which you find in english as "hail to". So, it's "Hail to Hitler".
Further, the german adjective "heil" means "safe, in good health", and the german verb "heilen" means "to heal". So I guess the deeper meaning is "long live Hitler".
The same double meaning exists in English, except that the words are spelt differently: there is "hail", and there is also "hale" - but this word only tends to exist as part of the phrase "hale and hearty" nowadays.
Furthermore, the greeting "hail" has a much more common variant - "hello". So, translated into modern idiomatic English, what all those Germans were saying was actually "Hello Hitler!"
-------------------- 'I don't care what they say about me as long as they spell my name right.' P.T. Barnam Posts: 128 | From: Staffordshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Delta-V: What about "Heil, Myself!"?
The Fuhrer is coming, the Fuhrer is coming, the Fuhrer is coming! Heil Hitler! Heil Hitler! Heil Hitler!
Heil myself Heil to me I'm the kraut Who's out to change our history Heil myself Raise your hand There's no greater Dictator in the land!
Posts: 39 | From: London, England | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote: "Also, in Australia, it has also been forbidden by law, albeit indirectly, by banning all racist salutes and accompanying phrases and categorizing Nazism as "racist.""
There was no cite for this on Wikipdedia and, frankly, I find it hard to believe. I've certainly never heard of any such law. I've tried Googling but got nowhere - does anyone have any idea one way or another?
Or did someone confuse Australia with Austria?
-------------------- You fool! That's not a warrior, that's a banana! - a surreal moment in a role-playing game Posts: 2480 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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