posted
As long as you get the crows to sign releases, it is ok. Unless you are filming a group of crows, which would be filming a murder for commercial purposes, which would be a snuff film...which snopes assures us don't really exist.
Posts: 420 | From: Oxford, PA | Registered: Nov 2005
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The internet truely is a haven for mildly creative people with WAY too much time on their hands, isn't it..... ,-)
Or in other words.... 5 million commedians out of work in North America, and here I am stuck with you.... Heh
Anyone got any USEFUL 411??? LOL
FYI, only poets call a group of crows a 'murder'.... ornithologists call it a 'flock' :-)
Posts: 41 | From: Windsor, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2006
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"Migratory birds (for a complete list, refer to 50 Code of Federal Regulation (CFR) Part 10) are protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act (MBTA). All native species of birds, with the exception of upland game species (chukar, pheasant, quail, grouse), introduced species (starlings, house or "english" sparrows, and feral pigeons) are protected by the MBTA. Migratory birds, their parts, nests or eggs may not be possessed, transported, imported, exported, purchased, sold, bartered, or offered for purchase, sale or barter without appropriate permits.
The activity mentioned in the email (use of birds for a movie) is not allowed in the United States, unless the film is produced for the purpose of wildlife conservation education (National Geographic or Discovery Channel films, for example). Commercial use of migratory birds is prohibited. This would include using birds in films produced for entertainment or commercials."
James Powell
Posts: 588 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jan 2003
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
I thought ornithologists knew that crows were solitary and didn't often flock...
A couple of people have asked Experts on Wildlife, and the person writing couldn't come up with any specific laws and said he'd never come across any restriction in his filming career despite having often filmed crows. Googling suggests that the only known source of the story is HBO's comments on the Six Feet Under credits. Could it be an obscure joke?
(edit) OK, ignore this! I would have thought that law was intended more to ban using captive migratory birds, though, rather than to ban filming wild birds altogether.
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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From doing a little research, it looks like the reason is something different. Under the Migratory Bird Act of 1918 it is illegal to possess the birds covered under the act. Crows are included. The act does allow for possesion of birds that are not indiginous to North America. The Pied Crow isn't indiginous to North America, and therefore would be legal to possess.
If you are setting up a film shot, it would stand to reason that you would be in possion of the bird, illegal for a crow, but not a pied crow.
Best I can come up with.
ETA: Spanked, but good
-------------------- On the crusade to eliminate Moral Asshattery wherever it exists Member: AAMAH Posts: 2940 | From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2004
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Though one must note that your 'source' (http://www.qty.com/permits_for_wildlife_research.html) Claims only to be quoting yet another (Undocumented) internet post, "The following is a post that I found on the internet........"
So, I'd wanna keep a few grains of salt around, until a better source comes down the pike.
Posts: 41 | From: Windsor, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:I thought ornithologists knew that crows were solitary and didn't often flock...
Hmm. It was my understanding that crows would typically gather in groups of 5 or so (a murder). The group would consist of the breeding pair and the offspring from the previous season or two. The group would work together to care for that season's chicks. This reflects what I observe around my house. Unfortunately, my bird books are all at home right now. I did a quick google search, but I didn't turn up anything that I call super reliable. Then again, I didn't look too hard.
I recognize that your post didn't say that crows never gather in flocks, but I though it would be good to point out that they do gather in groups to raise young.
-------------------- "How do you make chocolate? You take dark chocolate, you mix it with white milk, and it becomes a delicious drink. That is the chocolate I am talking about." --Ray Nagin Posts: 1325 | From: Missouri | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
The USFWS website can be checked for authenticity. I could not, in a quick check, find anything as specific as what was on the other site. However, the full Migratory Bird Act is on the USFWS site and a reading of it will confirm that possessing the birds to film would be illegal.
I do not think it would be illegal to film crows, as long as they were acting without any coercion from humans. If the crows just happen to be in the shot, no harm done. If the crows are restrained in their movements in any way, bad idea. If the crows do not want to cooperate with what the director wants, too bad.
That is why you see Pied Crows and other species in commercials.
James Powell
Posts: 588 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
It used to be legal to film crows, but not since the Hitchcock Amendment passed.
-------------------- "No hard feelin's and HOPpy New Year!"--Walt Kelly Hear what you're missing: ARTC podcasts! http://artcpodcast.org/ Posts: 7581 | From: Gainesville, Georgia | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Careful, Brad. You may be accused of being "mildly creative." *sigh*
-------------------- "This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman "Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam Posts: 4020 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ClintonHammond: Better to be 'mildly creative' than 'minimally exceptional'
:-)
Well, apparently you are just too clever for little ol' me. Nevertheless, I thought you might enjoy this. http://www.lawguru.com/cgi/bbs/mesg.cgi?i=735159686 It interprets your question in a way of which I never thought. It may be the true answer to your question since you capitalized the word "Crow" in your topic title.
Welcome to the board. Please note that we are allowed to post silly replies if the mood strikes. Please note that one or more persons will also try to find an answer for (generic) you. Please note that some people even do their own research. Go figure. Okay, I got it.
Signora Del "not even mildly creative" Drago
-------------------- "This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman "Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam Posts: 4020 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Ya... While googl'ing/Wiking I found that lawguru post as well....
"we are allowed to post silly replies if the mood strikes" No one said you weren't.... Just don't expect me to give them much creedance! :-)
'minimally exceptional' ... is a quote from the great George Carlin....
Posts: 41 | From: Windsor, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Creedance...is that when Native Americans move rhythmically to music?
Bettie "Maximally Exceptional, thank you" Page Turner
-------------------- You fail to consider, for such is the tyranny of fashion, that the swan is not a slim animal... -Jincy Kornhauser, Melinda Falling Posts: 1762 | From: Charleston, West Virginia | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Keeper of the Mad Bunnies: It is true.
"Migratory birds (for a complete list, refer to 50 Code of Federal Regulation (CFR) Part 10) are protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act (MBTA). All native species of birds, with the exception of upland game species (chukar, pheasant, quail, grouse), introduced species (starlings, house or "english" sparrows, and feral pigeons) are protected by the MBTA. Migratory birds, their parts, nests or eggs may not be possessed, transported, imported, exported, purchased, sold, bartered, or offered for purchase, sale or barter without appropriate permits.
The activity mentioned in the email (use of birds for a movie) is not allowed in the United States, unless the film is produced for the purpose of wildlife conservation education (National Geographic or Discovery Channel films, for example). Commercial use of migratory birds is prohibited. This would include using birds in films produced for entertainment or commercials."
And a more overly inclusive/restricive law is hard to imagine. It is even illegal to rescue an injured 'migratory' bird, unless you are licensed under the above permitting regulation.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Signora Del Drago-Threadslayer,Inc.:
quote:Originally posted by ClintonHammond: Better to be 'mildly creative' than 'minimally exceptional'
:-)
Well, apparently you are just too clever for little ol' me. Nevertheless, I thought you might enjoy this. http://www.lawguru.com/cgi/bbs/mesg.cgi?i=735159686 It interprets your question in a way of which I never thought. It may be the true answer to your question since you capitalized the word "Crow" in your topic title.
Welcome to the board. Please note that we are allowed to post silly replies if the mood strikes. Please note that one or more persons will also try to find an answer for (generic) you. Please note that some people even do their own research. Go figure. Okay, I got it.
Signora Del "not even mildly creative" Drago
Signora, I have found many of your posts to be mildly creative. I would go so far as to say that you are a minimally exceptional snopestress. The Penguin
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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-------------------- "This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman "Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam Posts: 4020 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ClintonHammond: Ya... While googl'ing/Wiking I found that lawguru post as well....
"we are allowed to post silly replies if the mood strikes" No one said you weren't.... Just don't expect me to give them much creedance! :-)
'minimally exceptional' ... is a quote from the great George Carlin....
Don't use Mr. Carlin to mock the very people you are asking for help. Especially as a newcomer to the board.
-------------------- "I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, EVIL stuff... and I want in."- Homer Simpson Posts: 2161 | From: Delaware | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:...The act does allow for possesion of birds that are not indiginous to North America. The Pied Crow isn't indiginous to North America, and therefore would be legal to possess...[/QB]
I wish they would have made it illegal for most foriegn birds too.
Posts: 4922 | From: Kyoto, Japan | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:...The act does allow for possesion of birds that are not indiginous to North America. The Pied Crow isn't indiginous to North America, and therefore would be legal to possess...
I wish they would have made it illegal for most foriegn birds too. [/QB]
If I remember the history correctly from my ornithology class, the Migratory Bird Act was meant to protect America's natural resources, i.e. bird feathers.
As we all know, America isn't often interested in protecting foreign natural resources.
-------------------- If the sum of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square on the other two sides, why is a mouse when it spins? Posts: 90 | From: Cleveland, OH | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis: And a more overly inclusive/restricive law is hard to imagine. It is even illegal to rescue an injured 'migratory' bird, unless you are licensed under the above permitting regulation.
It's also illegal to own indigeneous bird feathers without the proper permits.
Realistically, Fish & Wildlife will not come pounding on your door and fine you should you possess a mockingbird feather. However, in my dealings with wildlife conservation and management, I have met many zealous defenders of the MBA who nastily lecture well-meaning people who pick bird feathers off the ground. Most people are ignorant of the MTBA and its raison d'etre. I don't like these zealous birders who scream "You can't have that blue jay feather! That's illegal under the Migratory Bird Act! You don't have the proper permits!" while the average person asks "Huh?"
When I worked for a zoo we had to prohibit children from picking up the numerous vulture feathers on the premesis. Eventually I gave up trying to explain to the law to people, because let's face it, the vulture is a garbage bird that even I have little respect for. And it's really difficult to explain to a child (and the parents) why they can't have a feather from a common, abundant species lying on the ground.
While I understand the reason for the law, it is extremely prohibiting, but it is generally not enforced for the average person having a few birds feathers in their collection. I only know of one instance (in Oregon?) where someone who rescued an injured bird was criminally charged and fined. Most people will understand a law that applies to rare, endangered or threatened species, but the MBA encompasses basically every native American bird, and it's hard for the general public to understand the reasoning for this - that's why it seems shockingly restrictive.
(The feather prohibition has brought back thousands of Florida wading birds who were on the brink of extinction in the early 20th century. Egrets were massacred but the hundreds of thousands for their plumes, which were the height of fashion.)
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
I was told that an artist who became angry and tossed her bird feather collection onto her painting and later exhibited the work was arrested for possession of the bird feathers.
I am not sure if this ever happened.
Posts: 885 | From: Florida | Registered: May 2004
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posted
::related story:: We got a ticketed once for possesion of owl feathers that DD had picked up on a camping trip. They couldn't find anything else so we got that one.I guess our van looked like it should have drugs in it so they kept looking for something.
(it was an area that was known for problems but we weren't the problem)
-------------------- Contact me for discounts Charter member WNDMDC "I am putting you on hold now.Listen to the elevator music and LIKE it."~My 'J' Posts: 1816 | From: NE, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:I thought ornithologists knew that crows were solitary and didn't often flock...
Hmm. It was my understanding that crows would typically gather in groups of 5 or so (a murder). The group would consist of the breeding pair and the offspring from the previous season or two. The group would work together to care for that season's chicks. This reflects what I observe around my house. Unfortunately, my bird books are all at home right now. I did a quick google search, but I didn't turn up anything that I call super reliable. Then again, I didn't look too hard.
I recognize that your post didn't say that crows never gather in flocks, but I though it would be good to point out that they do gather in groups to raise young.
In my home town, also in Cayuga County, they have an enormous problem with crows. Between 50 and 70 thousand roost there every winter and it's really become quite a problem, between the noise and the droppings. So yes, crows will definitely form flocks. Some are enormous.
-------------------- "No Biblical hell could ever be worse than the state of perpetual inconsequence." Beatrice in Dangerous Beauty Posts: 1816 | From: Cayuga County, NY | Registered: Nov 2005
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It is illegal to import many animal products without a permit, and the fines can be stiff. I wouldn't say the US doesn't care about the wildlife of othe countries. It's just that the manpower and resources aren't enough to catch every violator.
Posts: 239 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
If you look at a lot of commercials with birds in them, you'll notice that the crows they show aren't black like those in the US, but black and white. These are pied crows, not native to the US.
I've always assumed it was because it is illegal to own these kinds of birds and it would be difficult/impossible to film with wild birds. I didn't realize it was actually illegal to film native crows.
-------------------- Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. Posts: 2110 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:posted by dfresh As long as you get the crows to sign releases, it is ok. Unless you are filming a group of crows, which would be filming a murder for commercial purposes, which would be a snuff film...which snopes assures us don't really exist.
FWIW dfresh, you made me laugh.
quote:posted by Signora Del Drago Welcome to the board. Please note that we are allowed to post silly replies if the mood strikes. Please note that one or more persons will also try to find an answer for (generic) you. Please note that some people even do their own research. Go figure.
Right on, Signora. I would high five you, were it possible.
quote:posted by ClintonHammond "we are allowed to post silly replies if the mood strikes" No one said you weren't.... Just don't expect me to give them much creedance! :-)
Oh no, whatever will we do now? I was really counting on the appreciation of someone who joins a community, wants others to find his information for him, treats them rudely and puts little dash noses in his smilies.
ClintonHammond, I've stumbled upon several of your posts today and I just have to ask: are you being a jerk on purpose? Does it make you feel superior to people you'll never meet? Are you some type of troll? Are you totally socially impaired? I'm honestly curious about your behavior here.
There was so much snark in my post I feel icky now.
edited to fix quote, something I make an effort to do
Bad candy, no more snark!
-------------------- Me: "He's 19? Uh oh, I bought him a beer." A: "You contributed to the deliquency of a minor in drag!" "Sweet spell check: keeping drunks off the radar since 1995."- IND GodRe-AnimateGreenPorkBush Posts: 3986 | From: Illinois, jealous? | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
You're welcome, Bill D. What can I say? I speak for the masses. If you and I are the masses. And yes, you're being a hypocrite
ETA: Whadda ya know, my 2000th post.
-------------------- Me: "He's 19? Uh oh, I bought him a beer." A: "You contributed to the deliquency of a minor in drag!" "Sweet spell check: keeping drunks off the radar since 1995."- IND GodRe-AnimateGreenPorkBush Posts: 3986 | From: Illinois, jealous? | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by candy from strangers: You're welcome, Bill D. What can I say? I speak for the masses. If you and I are the masses. And yes, you're being a hypocrite
ETA: Whadda ya know, my 2000th post.
You go, girl. (Signora, too). Congrats on the 2000th!
-------------------- "No Biblical hell could ever be worse than the state of perpetual inconsequence." Beatrice in Dangerous Beauty Posts: 1816 | From: Cayuga County, NY | Registered: Nov 2005
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-------------------- Me: "He's 19? Uh oh, I bought him a beer." A: "You contributed to the deliquency of a minor in drag!" "Sweet spell check: keeping drunks off the radar since 1995."- IND GodRe-AnimateGreenPorkBush Posts: 3986 | From: Illinois, jealous? | Registered: Nov 2005
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