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Author Topic: Hold Conspiracy Theories Up To The Light
Norton II
Deck the Malls


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An Op-ed article in The Day of New London, CT is promoting a 9/11 conspiracy theory.
quote:
A new Scripps- Howard poll finds that, with no help from the mainstream media, the theory is starting to stick. More than a third of Americans think our government let 9-11 happen as a pretext for war, and 16 percent believe that explosives, not jets, brought down the towers (New York Post, Aug. 3)

The charges have been brought by people like Steven Jones (physics professor at Brigham Young University) and Morgan Reynolds (former Bush administration chief labor department economist). Both of these men, in the videos I've seen, appear professional and sane. So when Jones says controlled demolition is the best explanation for the towers' collapses, you take notice. When he claims to have examined the towers' steel (molten scraps from 9-11 memorial sculptures: the rest was all melted in China), and to have found a signature of “thermate” cutting charges, well, you ask questions. And when Morgan Reynolds chimes in to say “the evidence for three WTC demolitions is overwhelming,” a reasonable person might half expect to see something about it on “60 Minutes.”

You don't, though. That's why many wonder, “What third tower?” It was WTC 7, a 47-story office building that collapsed, at near free-fall speed, on the afternoon of Sept. 11. Oliver Stone slipped actual footage of its fall into “World Trade Center” (a sign, according to conspiracy buffs, that he knows what's up). It was not hit by a plane or significantly damaged by the other collapses, more than 300 feet away. The purported cause of its fall was fire. No other steel-frame building in history has fallen to fire, ever, yet the only investigators appointed to study the collapse were not allowed access to the site.



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Rebochan the Retail Reindeer
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The thing is...if Bush needed 9/11 to go to war, then why did he spend so much time blaming the attacks on people besides Saddam before suddenly and noticeably switching gears and making the entire thing look idiotic and incompetent?

I forget who on here said this, but it bears repeating: conspiracy theorists are really just nitpickers. It's always about the tiny things and never the big things, like, you know, assuming Bush needed to manufacture a pretext when WMD was already the buzzword before he ever set foot in the white house.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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And, again, the ultimate killer: too many people would have had to have been in on it.

Also, such theories always involve a hyper-competent group, putting together a flawless master plan...and yet bumbling like oafs in every phase that the public can actually see.

I far prefer to believe the theory of consistency: these guys are oafs all of the time, just as it appears.

Silas

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Echinodermata Q. Taft
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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A question I've heard asked in reference to these theories....has anyone actually gotten an opinion from someone who makes a living demolishing buildings? I mean, a physics professor is all very well, but if I heard it from someone who has been imploding hotels in Vegas for the last ten years, I might be a little more apt to listen.

[tinfoil hat]Of course they haven't spoken out, because they're the ones who did it![/tinfoil hat]

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Echinodermata Q. Taft:
A question I've heard asked in reference to these theories....has anyone actually gotten an opinion from someone who makes a living demolishing buildings? I mean, a physics professor is all very well, but if I heard it from someone who has been imploding hotels in Vegas for the last ten years, I might be a little more apt to listen.

Yep. I've seen two separate interviews with such people, and they support the "standard version" of the events.

(They have to, since government "men in black" know where their children go to school...)

Silas

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Joe Bentley
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The one that has always got me is... why two different methods?

Okay we're supposed to believe that the guberment either:

A) Flew two planes, either remote controlled or suicide piloted, into the WTC.

or

B) Blew up the WTC with a series of explosions, yet timed the two impacts to make it look as if they did it.

Okay that would be insansely stupid even if it was just the WTC, but there are two more planes and one more attack to think about.

The Pentago was severely damaged by some sort of explosion. The most popular conspiracy nutjob theory is that the Pentagon wasn't hit by a large passenger jet, but by a smaller object, either a missile or smaller plane.

Ahhh... why? Why go through the trouble of faking the planes flying into the WTC but not fake another plane flying into the Pentagon? Can the United States government only afford two remote controlled Boeing 727s?

If it is a conspiracy why the two radically different methods?

And I won't even get into where the plane that crashed in Shanksville fits into these conspircy theories.

Also why did Osama Bin Laden, a trained engineer by the way, take credit for the attacks, and the collapse of the WTC specifically, in one of his video tapes? Is he supposed to be in on this huge conspiracy as well?

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"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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Singing in the Drizzle
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As for Steven Jones and thermite. If you get aluminium hot enough to burn it will easly melt the steel. Another thing a building can be damaged and weakened and not collaps right away. It had happen several times. It can take hours or even days, weeks or years to happen.

Just because someone on the news try to describe something have not seen before, Then compares it to things people may have seen dose not in anyway suggest that it happened that way.

If some group did plant explosive to implode a biulding to bring it down. I would think that someone working there would notice something. It take a lot of explosives rapped around the columns and lot of wire as well. You would have to get to the columns as and people would notice that as well.

As for the 757 and the hole in the pentigon. Every picture I have seen overlaying the 757 and the hole. Show it fits perfectly. The wings have very little mass and pententration power. They would have trouble going throgh a normal concrete wall, let alone a heavly renforced one. The engines on the other hand probably did most of the damage as far as braking throgh the walls.

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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But you guys don't understand... a building had never burned down before! Prior to 9/11, "fire" was a magic invention used only by pyrotechnicians and Jewish sorcerors when they weren't busy firing Colonel Zoidberg's mother in law. In fact, the direction "down" was an invention of the CIA. Those of us who did not "drink the Kool Aid" remember "up" and "more up". Before 9/11, there wasn't even a "before", there was only

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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I apologize for the last post. When I said "Jewish" I meant "international banker-ish". Or, if you are David Icke, "9 foot tall lizardish".

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Felessan
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Anpan Rebochan:
The thing is...if Bush needed 9/11 to go to war, then why did he spend so much time blaming the attacks on people besides Saddam before suddenly and noticeably switching gears and making the entire thing look idiotic and incompetent?

I forget who on here said this, but it bears repeating: conspiracy theorists are really just nitpickers. It's always about the tiny things and never the big things, like, you know, assuming Bush needed to manufacture a pretext when WMD was already the buzzword before he ever set foot in the white house.

It's one of my catchphrases.

Trust me, I will be saying it again...

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- a surreal moment in a role-playing game

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skeptic
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Singing in the Drizzle:
... a building can be damaged and weakened and not collaps right away. It had happen several times. It can take hours or even days, weeks or years to happen.

I've thought of this a few times over the last few years. If the towers had not collapsed, would they have had to be demolished later, at least down to the level where the planes hit.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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To me, the weakest link/most urgently missing explanation in the official explanation is why the WTC 7 collapsed. It had not recieved any serious damage, it was not a blazing inferno. It really shouldn't have fallen like that.

quote:
As for Steven Jones and thermite. If you get aluminium hot enough to burn it will easly melt the steel.
Nope. You can heat it as much as you want, and it will still not burn unless you add a good oxidizer, which is hard to do to solid aluminium. Thermite is finely powdered aluminium mixed with an oxidizer (usually iron oxide) pressed into pellets, and even that requires quite some heat to ignite.

Besides, an ordinary fire does not burn very hot, even if (and that's a big if) there was large amounts of jet fuel present (the previously mentioned if being that the fuel went up in the big initial fireball and was gone).

quote:
I forget who on here said this, but it bears repeating: conspiracy theorists are really just nitpickers. It's always about the tiny things and never the big things
Without commenting on the current issue, most conspiracies that have been proven to be real have been found out by persistent nibbling at the little things. If you've done military service and worked with camouflage, you know that an entire camp can be perfectly hidden, but someone leaving a colourful plastic bag outside can give it all away to aerial surveillance.

This is why the little things are important. It doesn't matter if the big things are OK, if there are enough little things that does not work within the official explanation, they need to be researched until an explanation is found. Sure, one by one they can be explained as some unlikely occurance, but if they start to need too many unlikely explanations, something may be fishy.

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/Troberg

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Felessan
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Troberg wrote:

quote:

Without commenting on the current issue, most conspiracies that have been proven to be real have been found out by persistent nibbling at the little things.

Some examples of this would be welcome.

My own problem with many Conspiracists is, as I said before, they seem to think that they don't have to prove anything. They search for small flaws in the "official" case, incorporate vague rumours and unsubstantiated hearsay, cross-fertilise each other's assertions, and avoid any real discussion of their own motivations. Further, they often start from an automatic assumption that any act of terror - in some cases, natural disasters - must be the result of a given bugbear.

We have the anti-Semitic and anti-Western hatreds of Joe Vialls, the derivative rants of David Icke, and the single-issue hatchet job of Thierry Meysannes. They all share the features I outlined. Leaf through Jon Ronson's Them and you'll find more.

If anyone of that ilk has ever uncovered a genuine conspiracy on the scale of S11 - and it has to be a proven example of such - I would really like to know.

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You fool! That's not a warrior, that's a banana!
- a surreal moment in a role-playing game

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Menolly
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by skeptic:
quote:
Originally posted by Singing in the Drizzle:
... a building can be damaged and weakened and not collaps right away. It had happen several times. It can take hours or even days, weeks or years to happen.

I've thought of this a few times over the last few years. If the towers had not collapsed, would they have had to be demolished later, at least down to the level where the planes hit.
Skeptic, IMNSHO that much force at impact would have no problem displacing structural beams. I'm not any kind of expert, but I do know that just a twist on a beam can screw up its ability to hold something steady and mess up its overall strength. And that's even before the explosions. Just thinking about how much weight those beams are holding up boggles my mind--any engineers out there know details on this? I'm just Jane Q. Public here...

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Felessan
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Hello, Menolly, how are the fire lizards?

Sorry I can't help with the engineering question...

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You fool! That's not a warrior, that's a banana!
- a surreal moment in a role-playing game

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Menolly
We Three Blings


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Robinton's put them on tour for the summer. Hectic but rewarding experience, I tell ya! [Big Grin]

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Let's just pretend we're normal for a minute ~ New favorite T-shirt quote

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Without commenting on the current issue, most conspiracies that have been proven to be real have been found out by persistent nibbling at the little things. If you've done military service and worked with camouflage, you know that an entire camp can be perfectly hidden, but someone leaving a colourful plastic bag outside can give it all away to aerial surveillance.

This is why the little things are important. It doesn't matter if the big things are OK, if there are enough little things that does not work within the official explanation, they need to be researched until an explanation is found. Sure, one by one they can be explained as some unlikely occurance, but if they start to need too many unlikely explanations, something may be fishy.

No, I completely disagree. Any conspiracy theory I've seen that's turned out to have a shred of truth did not come to light because of nitpicking. It came to light because somebody found actual evidence of a conspiracy. The United States' overthrowing of multiple (often democratically elected) rulers in South America and the Middle East, for example, came out (and were never that closely guarded a secret) because the people involved talked about them. Similarly, the Iran-Contra affair, the deal with the wife of the US military officer smuggling drugs in from (I think) Venezuela, and oil for food... none of that was uncovered by "nitpicking".

On the other hand, you can pretty much spot an inane, factless conspiracy theory by the presence of people whose modus operandi it is to poke little tiny holes in the "official" (read: the logical) story. It's the real-life version of the cockroach defense some defense attorneys use when they know their client is guilty. Just crap on everything and maybe the combined weight of the crap will cause the judge to throw out the case. I haven't seen many conspiracy theorists take on the Chewbacca defense strategy (maybe David Icke) but it's only a matter of time.

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pinqy
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If you are going to blow up a building and blame it on someone else, then blow up the building using materials your someone else would have used, and set arrange other clues. Simple, to the point, and workable. Using remotely controlled planes to cover up the actual explosions is not only unnecessary, but stupid. There is zero need to disguise the typical terrorist act of using explosives with the unusual act of crashing planes. Why would anyone do it that way when it's just more stuff you have to cover up? Or you could just crash the planes or use a missle...why use actual explosives on top of that?

pinqy

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Without commenting on the current issue, most conspiracies that have been proven to be real have been found out by persistent nibbling at the little things.
Examples? I'm unaware of any conspiracy theories that have proven to be real.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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Richl
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Moonlanding?
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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Richl:
Moonlanding?

I took a class with a guy who got punched by Buzz Aldrin.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Without commenting on the current issue, most conspiracies that have been proven to be real have been found out by persistent nibbling at the little things.
Examples? I'm unaware of any conspiracy theories that have proven to be real.

pinqy

Dood, I gave you like 4 in my post! Maybe they're not what you think about when you think of whacked-out conspiracy believers, but they were most certainly conspiracies and they did come to light. See also: Watergate, the actual Holocaust (which was undoubtedly a massive conspiracy that the Nazis did try to hide for several years), the deal with the Juventus soccer team, and the New York City College point-shaving scandal.

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Aptenodytes_Forsteriis
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
quote:
Originally posted by Richl:
Moonlanding?

I took a class with a guy who got punched by Buzz Aldrin.
The guy who wrote that awful "it was all faked" movie?

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Slick:
quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Without commenting on the current issue, most conspiracies that have been proven to be real have been found out by persistent nibbling at the little things.
Examples? I'm unaware of any conspiracy theories that have proven to be real.

pinqy

Dood, I gave you like 4 in my post! Maybe they're not what you think about when you think of whacked-out conspiracy believers, but they were most certainly conspiracies and they did come to light.
I did miss your post. And no, those weren't quite the type I was thinking of. Although, honestly I'm having trouble articulating what the difference is.

ETA: OK, I figured it out. I am unaware of any instances where the generally accepted truth has been proven to be false and part of an deliberate conspiracy. Foreign involvement in coups etc doesn't really cut it for me, either, because the "conspiracy" part is an addition rather than a seperate explanation.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
quote:
Originally posted by Richl:
Moonlanding?

I took a class with a guy who got punched by Buzz Aldrin.
The guy who wrote that awful "it was all faked" movie?
Yup, that's the guy!

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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MKULTRA? COINTELPRO? The Tuskegee experiments? Some of those - MKULTRA in particular - look really, really silly at first glance.

Also, if "Oswald didn't really shoot JFK" meets your definition of conspiracy, I'm having trouble seeing how the US removal of Arbenz from Guatemala or Mossadegh from Egypt isn't. Before definitive proof came in the form of CIA documents in the 1990s there were plenty of people who dismissed the Arbenz affair as so much liberal conspiracy theory hogwash. Was that the "generally accepted truth"? I can't tell you; I remember first learning about Arbenz being a US-run thing in a Noam Chomsky book - generally considered outside the realm of normal public discourse. And the US didn't officially recognize its involvement in Egypt until 2000.

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