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Author Topic: Loose Change 9/11 "Documentary"
Robofication, Lightly Roasted
Jingle Bell Hock


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The 9/11 conspiracy theorists are back in force, again, this time in a "Documentary" by a group called Loose Change.

The "Documentary" is an hour and 21 minutes long and is freely available on the internet. Apparently it's been gathering steam--it's on Google Video, is one of the top downloaded videos on torrent sites, and is actually being shown in college courses.

Here's a link to the main site:

http://www.loosechange911.com/

The entire "Documentary" is so poorly done, I don't know what to say. That people still believe this crap is astounding.

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"As convenient as it may be, it's time I started taking responsibility for the messes I've created instead of always blaming everything on the law of entropy"

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Ben Who
Deck the Malls


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Well, it's not like we don't see it all the time here on Snopes. "I'm going to say two things that are common knowledge, one thing that's a little weird, and then six things that are total crap, and the common knowledge things will lend credence to the total crap."

"Bush received a copy of a report concerned that hijackers would attack the US. Therefore the Pentagon was destroyed by aliens from the planet Zog and replaced by one made entirely out of bread!"

I like bread.

Love, Who?

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7thWheel
I Saw Three Shipments


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Im waiting for someone to do a refuting documentary called "Exact Change" that pokes holes in it much the same way Farenhype 911 did to Farenheit 911
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Rach
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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ohhh yeah I've seen info. on this documentary and the poeple who've made it. They see conspiracies everywhere!

Religious group? Yes. I have looked at their websites and listened a little bit to their radio station, but it seems to me that they're more concerned with creating controvery and making a LOOOT of money from like-minded people.

Money makes the world go 'round eh?

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The Presence of an Intelligent Mind is one that can hold two opposing opinions at the Same Time.

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abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I skimmed it; also the forums, including a look at the "Skeptics" forum, where those who don't agree are welcome to post. It goes like this:

Skeptic: "I don't believe this, because of x and y"

Site: "well, you are a moron"

Skeptic: "but it doesn't add up, look at a and b"

Site: "you are a Bush-loving moron who will never see the truth"

etc....

[Roll Eyes]

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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Orpheum
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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I don't believe the Loose Change documentary (and yeah, I've watched it), but I wouldn't put *anything* past the Machiavellian cadre looting this country right now.

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A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.

Willy Wonka

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Robofication, Lightly Roasted
Jingle Bell Hock


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Who would believe it? I mean, they present no facts or sources, just "hints" and "questions."

For instance, one of the more hillarious parts of the "documentary" is the section on Flight 77 flying into the Pentagon.

The camera pans over a piece of debris lying on the lawn that is a piece of the outer hull of Flight 77. The American Airlines logo is cleary shown on this piece of debris.

But the narrator says, "And what of the piece of debris found on the lawn outside the Pentagon? It is an American Airlines piece. Skeptics point to this as clear evidence that Flight 77 flew into the Pentagon. But this piece could be from any American Airline plane."

And he stops there. Ok, it could be from any American Airlines plane. What the NFBSK is it doing on the Pentagon's lawn at that exact moment!? Did another plane, out of sheer coincidence, lose a piece of its outer hull and have it land exactly at a crash site at the Pentagon? Oh, it was *planted*....I see.

You morons.

Their whole argument is that the *absence* of proof means their argument is valid.

What really disturbs me is that people are eating this up....and are believing it yet again.

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"As convenient as it may be, it's time I started taking responsibility for the messes I've created instead of always blaming everything on the law of entropy"

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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I have people at my office who (otherwise) are fine research scientists & engineers, yet they are VERY into these conspiracy theories. It is mind boggling.

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And now for something completely different...

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by 7thWheel:
Im waiting for someone to do a refuting documentary called "Exact Change" that pokes holes in it much the same way Farenhype 911 did to Farenheit 911

I would rather see someone do a refuting documentary that relies on facts instead of hyperbole from the opposite camp.

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"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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Robofication, Lightly Roasted
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
I have people at my office who (otherwise) are fine research scientists & engineers, yet they are VERY into these conspiracy theories. It is mind boggling.

Michael Shermer addresses this in "Why (Smart) People Believe Weird Things."

There is a brilliant Quantum Physicist who wrote an article full of equations proving that God exists. Not the God we imagine (old guy, gray beard sitting on clouds). Instead, this physicist says that God will be a massive computer constructed eons into the future.

His theory rests on the fact that man will outgrow planet Earth (true), man will eventually develop the technology to leave planet Earth and populate other parts of the galaxy (specious), man will continue to do this in order to survive as a species (true), technology will continue to grow at an exponential rate (true), and, since this physicist is a believer in the limited Universe (that it will end in a crunch), his final theory is that a computer so massive in storage power, memory, and AI will be constructed that, when the Universe collapses, *all* human experiences, memories, thoughts, etc., will be recreated as energy and stored in the computer.

Basically, we'll all be rubbing arms with Julius Ceasar, Atilla the Hun, Jesus, and our Grandmothers millions of years in the future.

Bizzare, except that his physics and mathematical equations are sound. Only his logic is flawed. Each event has to take place in order for everything to occur.

Man has to leave Earth (may not happen), man has to continually populate planets across the galaxy (may not happen), a computer must eventually be built as specified (may not happen). Any breakdown in the steps and this guys "proof" falls apart.

And this physicist hangs out with Stephen Hawkings and other brilliant minds. His normal Quantum Physics work is considered brilliant and groundbreaking.

He just believes a weird thing.

--------------------
"As convenient as it may be, it's time I started taking responsibility for the messes I've created instead of always blaming everything on the law of entropy"

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Communication Attempt
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
I have people at my office who (otherwise) are fine research scientists & engineers, yet they are VERY into these conspiracy theories. It is mind boggling.

I've heard a saying Going to school makes you educated but it doesn't necessarily make you smart

I'm not surprised by those conspiracies.A common reaction to disastrous events is the desperate need to find a reason for it's occurence.When something bad happens to someone their first thoughts often are "What did I do to deserve this?" as if the event was caused as a reaction of their own actions.

In this case,people can't grasp that a rich man with fanatic followers can attack the USA this way.It is sad,it is a tragedy,but that's what happened.People have a hard time accepting that,they want to believe it takes more that an insane arab to hurt them,that something higher is involved

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"I love God,he's so deliciously evil!" -Stewie,Family Guy

The fun thing about standards is that they come in so many varieties.

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karamazoune
I Am Curious, Yellowtail


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quote:
Originally posted by Robofication, Lightly Roasted:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
I have people at my office who (otherwise) are fine research scientists & engineers, yet they are VERY into these conspiracy theories. It is mind boggling.

Michael Shermer addresses this in "Why (Smart) People Believe Weird Things."

There is a brilliant Quantum Physicist who wrote an article full of equations proving that God exists. Not the God we imagine (old guy, gray beard sitting on clouds). Instead, this physicist says that God will be a massive computer constructed eons into the future.

His theory rests on the fact that man will outgrow planet Earth (true), man will eventually develop the technology to leave planet Earth and populate other parts of the galaxy (specious), man will continue to do this in order to survive as a species (true), technology will continue to grow at an exponential rate (true), and, since this physicist is a believer in the limited Universe (that it will end in a crunch), his final theory is that a computer so massive in storage power, memory, and AI will be constructed that, when the Universe collapses, *all* human experiences, memories, thoughts, etc., will be recreated as energy and stored in the computer.

Basically, we'll all be rubbing arms with Julius Ceasar, Atilla the Hun, Jesus, and our Grandmothers millions of years in the future.

Bizzare, except that his physics and mathematical equations are sound. Only his logic is flawed. Each event has to take place in order for everything to occur.

Man has to leave Earth (may not happen), man has to continually populate planets across the galaxy (may not happen), a computer must eventually be built as specified (may not happen). Any breakdown in the steps and this guys "proof" falls apart.

And this physicist hangs out with Stephen Hawkings and other brilliant minds. His normal Quantum Physics work is considered brilliant and groundbreaking.

He just believes a weird thing.

What that person (the mathematician) is believing reminded me of the Last question by Isaac Asimov... maybe he got his inspiration there.
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Robofication, Lightly Roasted
Jingle Bell Hock


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Want a good laugh? Check out all the comments about this video on Shoutwire:

9/11 Staged

And Karama, I believe the physicist was inspired by Asimov's question.

I'm sorry I can't recall the guys name...

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"As convenient as it may be, it's time I started taking responsibility for the messes I've created instead of always blaming everything on the law of entropy"

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Pseudo_Croat
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Just out of curiosity, is there any site that actually provides a blow-by-blow debunking of this film? I don't watch things like that (they only make me angry, which is not a good thing for me), and I don't know what to Google for in this regard, so....

- Pseudo "counterfeit change" Croat

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"At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

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Mickey Blue
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
He just believes a weird thing.
Eh, sounds wierd but then virtually all religious beliefs (beyond "be good to people") are pretty wierd.

I mean, it would to an observer seem odd no doubt for highly educated adults in a technologically advanced world to belive in stories that are essentially highly detailed and immensly popular fairy tales, but many people do, and they are still incredibly intelligent people, just the way we are, rationality does not always have to occupy every facit of our mind.

As for conspiricy theorists.. Yea sounds silly to me too, but I think people have a need to believe some events have more to them then the sometimes bland truth (granted 9/11 was truly historic, but at its core it was simply an attack on the US, but if you dress it up with a government conspiracy..).

Oh well, to each their own I suppose.

quote:
I would rather see someone do a refuting documentary that relies on facts instead of hyperbole from the opposite camp.
Good luck with that one, somehow I doubt a political documentery could be made with just facts and fair analysis would do well in a country that has been conditioned to be very polorized on certain issues.

ETA: To clarify, I doubt it could be made and sold to a production company, much less the big screen. The masses want hyperbole, and to have their beliefs stroked and their sacred cows left along, in other words they want the Davinci Code, not religioustolerance.org.. (sorry couldn't come up with a movie/book fairly neutral on the subject off the top of my head.. Which tells you something [Smile] ).

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"All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do"

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Robofication, Lightly Roasted
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat:
Just out of curiosity, is there any site that actually provides a blow-by-blow debunking of this film? I don't watch things like that (they only make me angry, which is not a good thing for me), and I don't know what to Google for in this regard, so....

- Pseudo "counterfeit change" Croat

This is on the James Randi site.

Everyone in this forum basically does a blow by blow debunking.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53102

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"As convenient as it may be, it's time I started taking responsibility for the messes I've created instead of always blaming everything on the law of entropy"

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Penny
Deck the Malls


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One guy on the Randi forum (Gravy) created this site:
http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

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Pseudo_Croat
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Penny:
One guy on the Randi forum (Gravy) created this site:
http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

Thanks, Penny! It's a very nice debuking, but the way he repeats the same questions over and over sometimes can be annoying. Still, it answered a lot of questions for me, and I learned some stuff that I didn't know before, especially regarding black boxes.

The bit about "Loose Change" quoting heavily from an anti-Zionist group was especially damning. I think people that swallow conspiracy nonsense such as this should be shocked to see what agenda they are really supporting through their beliefs.

- Pseudo "every which way but loose" Croat

--------------------
"At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

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snopes
Return! Return! Return!


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Pentagon loon convention hits Los Angeles!

http://www.americanscholarssymposium.org/

- snopes

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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Oh, come on, snopes. You know you want to drop in for at least one seminar.

You can't get that kind of entertainment for ... $74?!? What the hell kind of ripoff is that?!?

It's almost as if they're trying to profit off such nutjob theories. But, of course, that couldn't be it for these truth-seekers. [Roll Eyes]

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Ogre4Hire
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Don't know... Was David Icke's name on the guest list?

--------------------
"I felt a great disturbance in this farce..." Nodwick in Lich Wars: the Henchman Strikes Back

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dissonance
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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So, the Loose Change filmmakers are being sued for copyright infringement.
Link to the letter from the Naudet brother's lawyer. The Naudets were the French filmmakers who were filming with the firefighters on 9/11; the Loose Change people didn't get permission to use their footage. The Loose Change website has been taken down except for the legal letter.

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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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It's all part of the plot! You can't copyright the truth!

[Roll Eyes]

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Spamamander in a pear tree
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Robofication, Lightly Roasted:
This is on the James Randi site.

Everyone in this forum basically does a blow by blow debunking.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53102 [/QB]

Great. I didn't realise the Randi site had a forum. Now I'm going to have ANOTHER addiction. Gee, thanks!

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"There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning." -Albert Einstein

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