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Author Topic: Not that I approve of vigilantism, but...
DadOf3
Jingle Bell Hock


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Kieran, welcome to the boards from a fellow Canadian, and still a relative newbie. I can sympathize with your situation. I think our Young Offenders laws need some serious work.

Having said that, I've had some strong feelings reading this thread as well. As the parent of a 13-year old boy, I can tell you that if I found out my son had been throwing paint balls at cars, houses, etc, he would be:
1) made to clean up everything he could clean;
2) made to pay some portion of the damage that he couldn't just clean up (we'd be responsible for the rest);
3) grounded for about a month, which means no visitors, no Scouts, no TV, no computer (except for school work), and not even any GameBoy;
4) assigned PLENTY of extra chores to keep him from being bored.

At the same time, if any guys forced my son into a car, drove him somewhere without telling him where they were going, made him strip down to his underwear and then threw him out of the car, I'd want their heads on a platter (metaphorically, of course - I think).

I can imagine how terrified he'd be, how much it would damage him, and how long it would take him to get over an ordeal like that. This wouldn't absolve him of guilt in the first place, but it would make me think twice about giving him any further punishment.

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Kieran
The Red and the Green Stamps


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You make excellent points, Dadof3, and thank you for the welcome. [Smile] I do think that the adults' reactions were excessive -- I simply wanted to make the point that I have stood in the shoes of wanting to do some excessive things myself when put in a frustrating and powerless position. I didn't, but...

I'm heartened that you're such a good Dad. [Smile] I wish more parents took such an active and fair-minded role in their children's behaviour.

-Kieran

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Sylvanz
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I would like to add that most kids are not like the future felons you are dealing with Kieran, and I don't think the op kids are either. They seem to be typical young teens who got carried away with stupidity, not an unusual thing to happen with boys/kids that age. Their parents appeard to be caring and involved people, and the kids would have gotten into plenty of trouble if their actions had been brought to the parents' attention. The point is, they're kids and they did something stupid to random inanimate objects; the boy's captors were "adults" and commited a felony or multiple felonies against a helpless kid for fun, and I hope they do some real time for it.

The law in your case isn't doing you or the kids any favors, but vigilantism is never a good thing. It sounds like you've had a lot more sense than the "adults" in the op. Particularly since you have a more personal stake in what the kids in your situation are doing. I think a neighborhood watch in the community and constant documentation and reporting of the damage these kids cause might be pretty constructive. The cops can't ignore you/your neighbors and the problem forever. The fact that they torture animals disturbs me the most. [Frown] It's one small step to younger kids and other helpless humans. Hmm I wonder what the "adults" in the op were doing at that age?

P&LL, Syl

Edited to add: Welcome to the boards Kieran!
Syl

--------------------
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire

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JOJO
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Don't want to get in on a "petty bickering," with the exception of welcoming another Kingstonian to the boards!

JO"Teen valndals? Can anyone say 'Aberdine St?'"JO

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JOJO
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Welcome Waffles
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The Memorial Storm
Lard Sharks


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I am not from Kingston but I am from Ontario and I have been to Kingston many times...does that count for anything? Oh yeah, and vigilantism all the way...GO BATMAN and SPIDERMAN GO!!! [lol]

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"Everything dies, but not everything comes to an end..." - Rev. Thomas Martin, City of the Dead

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naharnahekim
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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It's taken 2 days to fully read this thread. I have three things I must say, none of them having to do with the original post (most of the sentiments I have, have already been stated somewhere else).

First, I simpathise a little with wintermute, not becuase I think he's right nor do I think he has written a single post without coming off a total duoche, but becuase i think he is feeling attacked, cornered even, and desperatly grabbing for anything he can to "save face". (or he could just be a total wanker). That being said...

Winermute, in this thread you have absolutly no credibility, that might not be right, might not be fair, but that's the way it is. Cut your losses and give it up?

And finally, could wintermutes constant use of the term "strawman" actually be considered a "strawman arguement in and of itself? I only half understand the workings of this particular fallacy, but think that it would be absolutly lovely if true.

Much Love, and sorry fot the off topic post (as if that mattered in this thread) Mike Hanrahan

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Salamander
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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And I thought I was bad for bringing up my original grievances with this thread 8 or so days after it happened [Roll Eyes] [lol]

Although it is probably highly rude of me to answer on behalf of someone else... your answers are:

1) Never!
2) As I think I tried to point out, basically yes. It would be hilarious if it weren't so frustrating.

[Big Grin]

--------------------
"victory thru self-deception"

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LOADEDGOAT
I Saw Three Shipments


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I have a friend who had her 13 yr old daughter "borrow" her car one night while everyone was sleeping. She crashed the car into another car in an apartment complex. Now...the police "detained" the child as a juvenile, and meted out her punishment which consisted of probation, fine etc. The owner of the car took my friend to court saying she was responsible for her daughter's actions and wanted money. Well...in the state of Georgia, HE has to prove that the actions of the child were "malicious". Since her daughter had NO intentions of crashing the car into another, the judge in the case ruled that my friend was NOT responsible for any money rulings other than what the insurance paid on the vehicles. I got the idea the man just wanted a new car and maybe some other play things he couldn't afford otherwise. The damage to his car was under 300$ and consisted of a dent in the rear right panel.

What I have a problem her with is the "abducting" part of the "lesson". Detaining someone against their will is illegal, whether you know them or not.

LOADED "OH Yeah" GOAT

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~So, yesterday, I got over heated working on the truck, stung by a red wasp and bitten by a tick....just damn..*sigh*~My Friend Boomer's bad day

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NobbyNobbs
Deck the Malls


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One thing that jumped to my attention that nobody pointed out was that Wintermute mentioned his work with the Red Cross. It seems to me that, given his experience with the law, it's likely that his "profession in the medical field" consisted of handing out doughnuts after the blood drive.

Having dealt speciously with a profession does not make you an expert, and claiming to be an expert should require some form of proof to back it up.

The quote paraphrased from Randi originated with Carl Sagan, in reference to UFO abduction claims. It goes "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

--------------------
Back in the days before electricity, we were forced to watch TV by candlelight.

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Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by NobbyNobbs:
The quote paraphrased from Randi originated with Carl Sagan, in reference to UFO abduction claims. It goes "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

Aren't the anal probes proof enough?

--------------------
Ad astra per asparagus.

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spankmantha
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Aren't the anal probes proof enough?

[lol]

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"Mind is not a celestial state with idol hymns of praise." ~Pearl Jam "Angel"

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The Memorial Storm
Lard Sharks


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quote:
Originally posted by LOADEDGOAT:
I have a friend who had her 13 yr old daughter "borrow" her car one night while everyone was sleeping. She crashed the car into another car in an apartment complex. Now...the police "detained" the child as a juvenile, and meted out her punishment which consisted of probation, fine etc. The owner of the car took my friend to court saying she was responsible for her daughter's actions and wanted money. Well...in the state of Georgia, HE has to prove that the actions of the child were "malicious". Since her daughter had NO intentions of crashing the car into another, the judge in the case ruled that my friend was NOT responsible for any money rulings other than what the insurance paid on the vehicles. I got the idea the man just wanted a new car and maybe some other play things he couldn't afford otherwise. The damage to his car was under 300$ and consisted of a dent in the rear right panel.

What I have a problem her with is the "abducting" part of the "lesson". Detaining someone against their will is illegal, whether you know them or not.

LOADED "OH Yeah" GOAT

I am confused here...being detained by police is considered "abducting"? [Confused]

--------------------
"Everything dies, but not everything comes to an end..." - Rev. Thomas Martin, City of the Dead

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Latiam
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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I think she meant the abducting in the original situation. But I'm not sure either.

--------------------
Good morning Starshine! The Earth says hello.

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abigsmurf
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by LOADEDGOAT:
I have a friend who had her 13 yr old daughter "borrow" her car one night while everyone was sleeping. She crashed the car into another car in an apartment complex. Now...the police "detained" the child as a juvenile, and meted out her punishment which consisted of probation, fine etc. The owner of the car took my friend to court saying she was responsible for her daughter's actions and wanted money. Well...in the state of Georgia, HE has to prove that the actions of the child were "malicious". Since her daughter had NO intentions of crashing the car into another, the judge in the case ruled that my friend was NOT responsible for any money rulings other than what the insurance paid on the vehicles. I got the idea the man just wanted a new car and maybe some other play things he couldn't afford otherwise. The damage to his car was under 300$ and consisted of a dent in the rear right panel.

To be honest, in a situation like that, I would want more than just the insurance to repair the car. It's not pleasent being hit in a car and also insurance claims take up hours to fill out.

Considering a 13 year old was driving the car, this isn't just an accident, it's a criminal act. I'm amazed he didn't get awarded compensation. Also : it said the money was covered by insurance. Who's insurance? Would an insurer really pay out for a father who illegally let a child drive a car? I'd bet the victim had to pay out of his own insurance. There goes his no claims bonus (not to mention the excess...).

Sorry but I've got to side with the guy sueing there because quite frankly, I'd be damn pissed and want compensation.

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Salamander
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by abigsmurf:
To be honest, in a situation like that, I would want more than just the insurance to repair the car. It's not pleasent being hit in a car and also insurance claims take up hours to fill out.

Considering a 13 year old was driving the car, this isn't just an accident, it's a criminal act. I'm amazed he didn't get awarded compensation. Also : it said the money was covered by insurance. Who's insurance? Would an insurer really pay out for a father who illegally let a child drive a car? I'd bet the victim had to pay out of his own insurance. There goes his no claims bonus (not to mention the excess...).

Sorry but I've got to side with the guy sueing there because quite frankly, I'd be damn pissed and want compensation.

Except, the kid wasn't being allowed to drive the car by anyone. At least, that isn't how I read it -- using quote marks around the word 'borrowed' suggests that the 13yr old in question actually stole the car and so was driving without the express permission and consent of the adult.

The part about the costs of the insurance is a little unclear in the anecdote told by LG. As for no claim bonuses and excess, I obviously can't comment on the insurance plan the guy had in question (or for insurance in the USA in general since I don't live there) but around here if you can identify the other driver most companies will let you keep the no-claim bonus.

--------------------
"victory thru self-deception"

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Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Two years ago I was involved in an accident caused by another driver (he ran a red light). My insurance company still treats me as a no-claim client.

--------------------
Ad astra per asparagus.

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abigsmurf
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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you don't lose your no claims bonus typically because the insurance company gets the money from the person at fault. However if the person does a runner and can't be identified (or has no insurance) you'll have to claim it off of your own and typically it affects your no claims
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Dwight
Baby 100 Grand


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Hello all.

I just recently happened onto this thread and thought I would add a little from a first hand perspective.

The original post is about the incident involving my sons last summer. The boys were charged with criminal mischief and are on informal probation for what they did. They are generally good kids who showed poor judgement, and none have ever been in trouble before. The damage was not nearly what was represented in the article as I went through the neighborhood the next day and the only person I could find aware of any damage was the gentleman with the spray painted garage door. The door was done at the same time, but by another boy who actually was not with the other 3. This is the vandalism the men witnessed and illustrates the point of them grabbing the wrong person (albeit someone who was equally wrong in his actions). They were only aware of the paintballs after the fact because my youngest son (the one they caught) happened to be the one carrying the container. My son was the only one who didn't run, he knew that he had done something wrong and stayed to own up to his action, for this (what I see as his honesty) he was put through an extreme example of vigilante justice.

As the case is slowly moving toward trial for the three adults in the incident, there is a lot that I can't get into regarding the particulars of that evening. All three adults are charged with Criminal Confinement as a class "C" felony and if convicted face 2-8 years in prison. There was far more than just the "ride" that occurred and the totality of the actions against my son are what influenced the severity of the charges. Suffice it to say that this was not a case of vigilante justice, but a group of men out to have a good time at the expense of someone smaller and weaker. In the boys, they thought they had the perfect victims for their criminal acts and that they would not be found out (i.e. the boys would never tell what was done to them because of what they were themselves involved in doing).

To answer some other questions from this thread, yes, the boys learned a very big lesson from their actions that night, the garage door was repainted at the boy's expense, although not by the boys themselves as I could not require them to return to a house directly across the street from one of the abductors. I was never able to find anyone else with damage from that night in spite of the police report stating that 5 cars had been paintballed. The adults (I can't quite bring myself to call them "men") in this incident have failed in any way to recognize that anything they did that night may have been wrong. One of the group strikes me as borderline sociopathic, and I think he was a driving influence on the other two.

Now for the hypotheticals; suppose the boy was repeatedly battered in the face while in the car, that his wallet "or anything of value" was demanded from him. That his pockets were searched and when found empty, that is when he was instructed to strip.

[edited for grammar]

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Sylvanz
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Hello Dwight, and welcome to the boards. You sound like a good dad, and I can't imagine the horror your family must have gone through on that night. I hope those "adults" get the maximum amount of time allowed, especially the ring leader. I thought it was more a matter of opportunistic and sadistic bullying rather than "vigilantism," though I don't approve of either.
I don't question the dedication or the expertise of reserve police officers. There are just some claims to that profession that I took exception to. Please let us know what happens with your case if at all possible, and good luck.

P&LL, Syl

ETA: Dwight did you edit because I swear part of your post disappeared. [Confused]

Syl

--------------------
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Hi Dwight, and welcome. I hope your son's doing OK, and I second Syl's impression that you're a good dad. Since this is your first post, and you probably found the thread by googling for references to the case, I just wanted to ask that you not judge us as a community by the thread as a whole. It's in Petty Bickering for a reason, as it degenerated into nasty personal squabbles towards the end, and some of the snarkiest earlier posters have either seemed to settle down or move on. So I hope you browse a bit further and see that we're really quite nice, sometimes.

--------------------
~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Dwight
Baby 100 Grand


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quote:
Originally posted by Sylvanz:
ETA: Dwight did you edit because I swear part of your post disappeared. [Confused]

Syl

Thank you for your kind words, they are appreciated.

Yes, actually I did edit the post. I decided that part of my post had no real connection to my reason for being here, and might only serve to incite further "petty bickering". I also understood that your posts were merely asking for some clarification. It was the commments made by "Hero_Mike" to which I took exception.


Shortly after the incident there was discussion of it on a local radio call-in show and it is amazing the number of adults who thought this action wholly appropriate. A great many of them would feel the same way even with all the details. I think also that most people have no clue that paintballs are water soluble.

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Dwight
Baby 100 Grand


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Chloe, thank you as well. Yes, my son seems to be doing OK. He's irritated at having to deal with some of the details of the prosecution, but understands the necessity. He was deposed by the defense this past Friday and according to the prosecutor he represented himself very well.
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Salamander
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Hi Dwight,

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that it would be interesting to hear the eventual outcome of the case. If the 3 adults are found guilty (and I can't see why they wouldn't), I hope they receive a suitable sentence for what they've done.

--------------------
"victory thru self-deception"

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LOADEDGOAT
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by The_Memorial_Storm:



I am confused here...being detained by police is considered "abducting"? [Confused] [/QB][/QUOTE]


I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear at this point...by "abducting", I meant the original posting where the young boy was taken for a "lesson".

--------------------
~So, yesterday, I got over heated working on the truck, stung by a red wasp and bitten by a tick....just damn..*sigh*~My Friend Boomer's bad day

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LOADEDGOAT
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by abigsmurf:



To be honest, in a situation like that, I would want more than just the insurance to repair the car. It's not pleasent being hit in a car and also insurance claims take up hours to fill out.

Considering a 13 year old was driving the car, this isn't just an accident, it's a criminal act. I'm amazed he didn't get awarded compensation. Also : it said the money was covered by insurance. Who's insurance? Would an insurer really pay out for a father who illegally let a child drive a car? I'd bet the victim had to pay out of his own insurance. There goes his no claims bonus (not to mention the excess...).

Sorry but I've got to side with the guy sueing there because quite frankly, I'd be damn pissed and want compensation. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Abigsmurf,

Thanks for your reply. The car that the girl crashed into was parked in the complex lot, and empty. Compensation WAS made to the man. His car was repaired and my friend spent extra money having his car repainted. While she didn't tell me exactly how much, (HER insurance paid for the repair, she paid to have it painted), having a car completely repainted can't be cheap. The man did not work, so he didn't miss any work days. What the man wanted was something like 50,000$ for 300$ worth of damage to his vehicle. BTW, this was years ago, and this man had NO insurance on his vehicle (this was before the computer check). He didn't take her to court because she(or her insurance company), refused to repair his car, he did it for what he could possibly get.

(EDITED) I want to add, just in case, that her insurance, from what I gathered, paid for the vehicle panel because the child was charged with some type of misdemeanor "joy riding". Not vehicular theft nor GTA.

LG.

--------------------
~So, yesterday, I got over heated working on the truck, stung by a red wasp and bitten by a tick....just damn..*sigh*~My Friend Boomer's bad day

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Dwight
Baby 100 Grand


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Just an update to the paintball story- the defense has asked for a delay. The next pre-trial conference is set for September 2006. Trying to distance themselves as far from the news coverage as possible is my guess. I'll be sure to let you know how things turn out.
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Unusual Elfin Lights
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Thanks for keeping us posted. It will be interesting to have someone who knows extemely well the details of the story.

Good luck. [Smile]

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