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Author Topic: Not that I approve of vigilantism, but...
timbobmc
Jingle Bell Hock


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Hey, it's perfectly alright with me if the police tie the kids to a tree and pelt them with paintballs, but I think it would make the original victims feel better if they got to do the paintball pelting instead of the police. The police can be in charge of the tying and untying. Oh, and tie up the parents and let them be pelted, too, since they are ultimately responsible for the illegal acts of their children.

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Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen.

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Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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The laws are a compromise - ideally, I personally would be the one who decides what the laws are, but since few (or no) other people would agree to that, everyone agrees on a common set of laws.

However, why should I be upset when someone breaks this common set of laws in order to enforce his own personal laws if his laws are closer to my laws than the common set of laws is?

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Fools! You've over-estimated me!

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by timbobmc:
Oh, and tie up the parents and let them be pelted, too, since they are ultimately responsible for the illegal acts of their children.

Is that actually true? What about if your kid is convicted of murder? Do the parents go to jail?

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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timbobmc
Jingle Bell Hock


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Sure Christie, get rid of them all. The parents are obviously bad at parentling if they are unable to instill right and wrong in their kids.

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Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen.

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by timbobmc:
Hey, it's perfectly alright with me if the police tie the kids to a tree and pelt them with paintballs, but I think it would make the original victims feel better if they got to do the paintball pelting instead of the police. The police can be in charge of the tying and untying. Oh, and tie up the parents and let them be pelted, too, since they are ultimately responsible for the illegal acts of their children.

And the teachers!

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Troodon:
The laws are a compromise - ideally, I personally would be the one who decides what the laws are, but since few (or no) other people would agree to that, everyone agrees on a common set of laws.

However, why should I be upset when someone breaks this common set of laws in order to enforce his own personal laws if his laws are closer to my laws than the common set of laws is?

Because nothing is stopping someone breaking this common set of laws to enforce laws that are a lot further from your own laws than the common set is.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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That's why I'm not going out and organizing a protest to get the vigilantes released - they did break the common set of laws and the compromise I agree to is that those who break the common set of laws are punished.

However, I do not consider the vigilantes bad people or their actions morally wrong.

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Fools! You've over-estimated me!

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timbobmc
Jingle Bell Hock


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Haven't you heard, Chloe? Teachers aren't allowed to discipline children. That's why the education system in this country is in such bad shape. All I can do to a kid is make him write "meaningful" punish work if he misbehaves in my class or take away his recess. That's it. The PARENTS are responsible for the behavior of their children. I was just hired to teach them music, not how to abide by the law and manners (though I try).

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Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen.

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Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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I take it you'd prefer thumbscrews, timbobmc?

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But of course, I could be wrong.

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timbobmc
Jingle Bell Hock


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Chloe, I'm going to make a guess about you. You have children who constantly gave their teachers trouble, but you blame it on the teachers or ADD/ ADHD, or bipolarism, or the full moon or anything else besides your own bad parenting and lack of discipline at home. Your children are / were wonderful and the teachers just didn't understand them, right?

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope so, but your comments are telling me otherwise.

Yeah, I have students like that. We finally meet the parents and say, "So THATS why the kid acts that way."

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Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen.

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
I agree with DemonWolf. Woohoo!

I think I just saw four horsemen ride past my window! [Razz]

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Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

IMJW-052804

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by DemonWolf:
quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
I agree with DemonWolf. Woohoo!

I think I just saw four horsemen ride past my window! [Razz]
We're reprieved! I'm getting snippy over in the fetus thread.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Lady L
Squall of Me


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I don't think Chloe has any children....

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The Snopester formerly known as RooBug

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Because nothing is stopping someone breaking this common set of laws to enforce laws that are a lot further from your own laws than the common set is.

Stop it. You're scaring me. I almost posted a similar response.

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Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

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Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by timbobmc:
Chloe, I'm going to make a guess about you. You have children who constantly gave their teachers trouble, but you blame it on the teachers or ADD/ ADHD, or bipolarism, or the full moon or anything else besides your own bad parenting and lack of discipline at home. Your children are / were wonderful and the teachers just didn't understand them, right?

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope so, but your comments are telling me otherwise.

Yeah, I have students like that. We finally meet the parents and say, "So THATS why the kid acts that way."

Just to get this straight, am I to understand that anyone who doesn't support vigilante justice and corporal punishment must automatically be a bad parent?

Either way, count me in with Chloe and glad to be there - and I can assure you my kids have never received anything but praise from their teachers.

ETA quote

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But of course, I could be wrong.

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by timbobmc:
Chloe, I'm going to make a guess about you. You have children who constantly gave their teachers trouble, but you blame it on the teachers or ADD/ ADHD, or bipolarism, or the full moon or anything else besides your own bad parenting and lack of discipline at home. Your children are / were wonderful and the teachers just didn't understand them, right?

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope so, but your comments are telling me otherwise.

Yeah, I have students like that. We finally meet the parents and say, "So THATS why the kid acts that way."

Wow! I have to say that your ability to guess people's home situations is surpassed here only by your compassion and respect for the law.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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timbobmc
Jingle Bell Hock


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No, I'm just NFBSKing with Chloe. If she can't figure out when someone is being sarcastic, she should stick her head in a bucket and leave it there.

I actually have a lot of respect for the law, just not idiots who think they're kids are above the law just because they are they're kids.

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Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen.

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Lady L
Squall of Me


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quote:
Haven't you heard, Chloe? Teachers aren't allowed to discipline children. That's why the education system in this country is in such bad shape.
For some odd reason, I have a hard time believing this. I would like to think you're being sarcastic.

quote:
All I can do to a kid is make him write "meaningful" punish work if he misbehaves in my class or take away his recess.
Hey, it worked on me and numerous other classmates as a child. What else do you feel would actually work in disciplining children?

quote:
The PARENTS are responsible for the behavior of their children.
Agreed.

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The Snopester formerly known as RooBug

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Oh, sarcasm! As in saying the opposite of what we mean? So when you said, " Chloe, I'm going to make a guess about you. You have children who constantly gave their teachers trouble, but you blame it on the teachers or ADD/ ADHD, or bipolarism, or the full moon or anything else besides your own bad parenting and lack of discipline at home," you really meant "you don't have any children," or "you have children but they're well-behaved in school," or "you have children and they're badly-behaved but you don't blame the teachers," right?

A brilliant riposte, indeed! Note to self: master this "being sarcastic" thingy.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by timbobmc:
No, I'm just NFBSKSing with Chloe.


I can see you joined quite recently, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: we don't do that sort of thing here. If you want to hurl unwarranted abuse at people, God knows there are plenty of websites for just that. We're here to talk about stuff, as civilly as possible, not to 'NFBSK' with each other.
quote:
If she can't figure out when someone is being sarcastic, she should stick her head in a bucket and leave it there.
If you can't figure out how to conduct yourself in a public debate....

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Bug Muldoon
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
No, I'm just NFBSKing with Chloe. If she can't figure out when someone is being sarcastic, she should stick her head in a bucket and leave it there.

You're a pathetic excuse for a human being, an immature pseudo-fascist who doesn't have even the most basic comprehension of the purpose of law.

Now try to figure out if I was being sarcastic or not.

ETA : spanked with far more restraint and finesse by Chloe and Dara.

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All along the untrodden paths of the future, I can see the footprints of an unseen hand.

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
quote:
Originally posted by DemonWolf:
quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
I agree with DemonWolf. Woohoo!

I think I just saw four horsemen ride past my window! [Razz]
We're reprieved! I'm getting snippy over in the fetus thread.
You haven't seen my reply yet!

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Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

IMJW-052804

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abigsmurf
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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um enough of the personal insults and back to the topic on hand?
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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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Redirect: should parents be held legally responsible for the actions of their children? And for how long?

If your 6-year-old breaks my window with her baseball, you should pay for it.

If your 15-year-old throws paintballs at my house, the kid should clean up.

Where does the line get drawn between parent-responsible-for-child and child-responsible-for-hirself? Do we draw a bright line at age 18, they way we do for voting? Do we draw a bright line earlier for throwing paintballs? Where do we draw it? Are children and parents all similar enough that such lines may be fairly drawn?

Discuss. [Wink]

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by timbobmc:
No, I'm just NFBSKing with Chloe. If she can't figure out when someone is being sarcastic, she should stick her head in a bucket and leave it there.

I actually have a lot of respect for the law, just not idiots who think they're kids are above the law just because they are they're kids.

What about idiots who think that they're above the law because someone else did something? For example, an idiot who beleives that he witnessed a crime so now he can do as he pleases with the child that did it?
Like if I saw you parked too close to a fire hydrant, I could steal your keys and throw them down a storm drain?
If you are making too much noise at night, I should cut the power lines to your house?

Who needs the police? We're dishing out justice here!

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Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

IMJW-052804

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties:
Redirect: should parents be held legally responsible for the actions of their children? And for how long?

If your 6-year-old breaks my window with her baseball, you should pay for it.

If your 15-year-old throws paintballs at my house, the kid should clean up.

Where does the line get drawn between parent-responsible-for-child and child-responsible-for-hirself? Do we draw a bright line at age 18, they way we do for voting? Do we draw a bright line earlier for throwing paintballs? Where do we draw it? Are children and parents all similar enough that such lines may be fairly drawn?

Discuss. [Wink]

The parent of a minor is legally responsible to know what his/her child is doing and to teach right from wrong. The parent should make ammend for damages because the child is not likely to have money or to be able to get a job. It also as an incentive for the parent to monitor the child's behavior.
The parent should be free to discipline the child further to ensure there is not a repeat of the behavior.

In this case, the guys should have called either the parents of the police. The kids could be detained (but not driven around aimlessly) if necissary. The parents should have paid to clean up/repair the damage or, even better, made the kids do it. As long as reparations are made.
IMO, only the the parents or the courts should decide what the punishments are. As long as adequate reparations are made and it does not happen again, it is none of the agreived parties business whether the kids "learn their lesson." If it hapens again, the victim can call the police or sue in court.

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Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

IMJW-052804

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Lady L
Squall of Me


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Dwolf said it better than I could have.

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The Snopester formerly known as RooBug

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by RooBug Sammich:
Dwolf said it better than I could have.

Woohoo! I'm on a roll! Usually I phrase everything so poorly that it take the rest of the deay to dig my foot out of my mouth! [Big Grin]

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Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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Yes, DWolf, but you haven't reallly answered my question.

Should a parent be held legally responsible for a child's acts, as in the parent goes to jail if the kid commits a crime?

This bit here:
quote:
Originally posted by timbobmc:
Oh, and tie up the parents and let them be pelted, too, since they are ultimately responsible for the illegal acts of their children.

appears to say that parents should be punished equally with their children.

I happen to disagree quite vehemently with timbobmc on this one, because often it just doesn't matter what kind of example parents set, how strictly they instill values and respect -- sometimes NFBSK kids are going to do stupid-assed things. And often (not always, but plenty often enough) it's the kids who are most stringently taught who rebel the most.

Have you ever heard the phrase "cops' kids and preachers' kids" -- usually spoken with an impatient sigh and much rolling of eyes? I know that when I was a teen, the stricter my parents got the more I rebelled. My parents weren't cops or preachers, just strict; but I dated several guys whose parents were. [Razz]

No one could ever say that my parents didn't do their darndest to instill good values in me, but that doesn't mean I didn't do some incredibly illegal things when I was a teenager. Had I been caught, should my parents have gone to jail along with me? What about the cop's kid: should he have a criminal record and lose his job because his teenaged son broke and entered? What about the preacher's kid who burned down that garage; should his father lose his place in the pulpit and do time for the arson along with his son?

To me it sounds as if timbobmc is advocating such, and I disagree.

That leads to the question of when the parents' legal responsibility ends and the child's begins: the parents are financially responsible for fixing the 6-year-old's broken window, and the parents of the 15-year-old are financially responsible for rebuilding the garage IMO. But should the parents go to jail for either one? No.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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We had neighbours when we were growing up who had 7 kids. 5 turned out just fine, two have been in and out of Juvvie, then jail, then prison since they were in their teens. They got into drugs in high school and in order to get the money to support their habits they started breaking into houses and helping themselves to the portable, saleable contents. Sadly, they've moved well on in their chosen "careers" since then.

Should their parents have been put in jail whilst their kids were in a Young Offenders facility? Even though it could be demonstrated that they were pillars of the community and were successfully raising their other kids? And that no one was more devastated by their actions than the parents?

I always think of that family whenever I'm tempted (based on nothing more than a headline or two) to condemn the parents of Young Offenders.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties:
Yes, DWolf, but you haven't reallly answered my question.

Should a parent be held legally responsible for a child's acts, as in the parent goes to jail if the kid commits a crime?

There goes my winning streak!

That is a tough question. The age of the child comes into play here. For a child to commit certain crimes below a certain age, there may be a question of criminal neglect.
Lets say that the kids in the OP were 6. I would be outraged that the parents were letting the kids out unsupervised with a paintball marker (even one out of gas)! I would support charges being filed because the parents should have been acting in a more supervisory role and were clearly begligent. If the children were 15, then they knew that what they were doing was wrong and the parents can't possibly be expected to watch them every second.
If a police officer's child took the service weapon and held up a store, then that officer should face disiplinary action for not seruring the weapon out of the child's reach. If the kids obtained his own weapon, then the it is the kid's responsibility. There is only so much that a parent can do.

ETA: to clarify, a parent should only face legal dicipline if the actions or inaction of the parent was directly responsible for the child's behavior.

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Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

IMJW-052804

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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Nicely put.

Now let's take it a step further in our hypothetical: the parents of the child with the paintball gun and pellets should be held responsible under your scenario, since their actions in giving the stuff to their kid directly contributed, right?

How about the parents of the other two kids, who did not give them such stuff? Are they responsible for their children's actions, and to a lesser or greater degree than the parents of delinquent #1?

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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Wintermute
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Who:
The only people he hasn't attacked are the grown men who forced two underaged kids to strip and then drove them around town.

Interesting how you missed this.
quote:

The behavior of the three men was inappropriate at best.

Ben, it would help if you paid attention. I answered the question with my first statement. The problem is when you try to read something into the statement that is obviously not there.
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Wintermute
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
Last time I checked, resisting a "citizen's arrest" can be classified as "self-defense".

Depends on your state law. In CA resisting a citizens arrest is against the law. You can use the level of force required to enact the arrest, up to and including deadly force as required. The level of force must be in line with the crime though. You can not shoot someone for littering.
Posts: 4580 | From: Walnut Creek, CA | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Hero_Mike
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quote:
Originally posted by Wintermute:
quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
Last time I checked, resisting a "citizen's arrest" can be classified as "self-defense".

Depends on your state law. In CA resisting a citizens arrest is against the law. You can use the level of force required to enact the arrest, up to and including deadly force as required. The level of force must be in line with the crime though. You can not shoot someone for littering.
I'm so glad I don't live in California, else I'd expect you to be putting me in a headlock for spitting on the sidewalk. You'd quickly consult Wintermute's Official Guide to Force vs. Crime and check that a headlock is "appropriate" force for this crime.

You forget a simple point about all of this - make a citizen's arrest and be *wrong* about it - and then what? You felt justified in using deadly force because in your opinion, I looked like the mug shot of a murderer you saw on tv the night before. You could be totally convinced and swear on a stack of holy books and copies of the Constitution that I was the one. But I'm not. And I'm dead. And you shrug your shoulders and think that you did the right thing because it would be worse to do nothing.

Or does there not exist any possibility in your world for you being wrong?

I am confident that I've committed no crime. Should I ever move to the US I will feel compelled to carry a gun to protect myself from attitudes like this.

If you ever try to pull this on someone, I hope that they perform a "citizen's arrest" on you for assault and "false arrest".

--------------------
"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

Posts: 1587 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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