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Author Topic: Not that I approve of vigilantism, but...
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Wintermute:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
It does not give you the right to force them to strip, put them in your car, and drive them around all night.

So, I call bullshit again. I never said anything of the nature. Please, stick to what was said, and not your own manipulation of events please.
I didn't say you said it. That is, however, what happened. I was addressing *that* and not *you*.

Calm down.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Wintermute
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Now, how about the men who dragged the teenager into the car and forced him to strip to his underwear? Was that a good idea?

Though, I do find it funny in a dark humor kind of way. The behavior of the three men was inappropriate at best.
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Wintermute
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties:
Hmm.. could you possible cite where I attributed that to you? or is it more fun to live in your own world when making such accusations?

When you quoted me, then added your comments as if you were trying to correct something I said.
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Wintermute
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
I didn't say you said it. That is, however, what happened. I was addressing *that* and not *you*.

So, you were addressing that which was never said nor asked? Anglrdr, I am always calm. It is you who I worry about at times.
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Dropbear
Angels from the Realms so Glurgy


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The kids were clearly out of line - no doubt but they were also KIDS. Kids do stupid things.

Now consider the response - especially how you might feel. Chased by strangers, you alone caught, forced into their car, forced to take off all your clothes with no explantion, and then driven around waiting for god's knows what to happen to you (or do we imagine the idiot vigliantes were carefully explaning their actions and ultimate intent to the boy?).

I would suggest that anybody would be rightly terrified for their life and health in these circumstances.

The kids should be made to clean up their mess and grounded. The adults should be put in maximum security for a week wearing nothing but "Kiss Me I'm Cute" apron to get a similar feeling to what they meeted out.

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" The villagers had said justice had been done, and she'd lost patience and told them to go home, then, and pray to whatever gods they believed in that it was never done to them. -- (Terry Pratchett)

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Wintermute:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
I didn't say you said it. That is, however, what happened. I was addressing *that* and not *you*.

So, you were addressing that which was never said nor asked? Anglrdr, I am always calm. It is you who I worry about at times.
No, wintermute; I was trying to get some clarification on what you were trying to say before I commented upon it.

You wondered if the kids had learned their lesson, to which I asked if you felt the adults were justified.

Everytime I attempt to have a conversation with you, it winds up getting derailed. I do not know what it is about me that rubs you so the wrong way.

[ETA: Isn't "meet" spelled "mete?"]

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Wintermute
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
No, wintermute; I was trying to get some clarification on what you were trying to say before I commented upon it.

The statement I made was clearly only about the child.

quote:
You wondered if the kids had learned their lesson, to which I asked if you felt the adults were justified.
One does not equal the other.
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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Which is why she asked.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by abigsmurf:
It also wouldn't have been funny if they had all been blind chloe. The fact is these were a bunch of teenagers going around vandalising property and probably acting like dicks. Any thoughts to old people who are terrorised by these teens going around chucking painballs everywhere?

Yeah, I say get a grip. As a paintball player, I can tell you that a paintball must strike with significant force to breay, otherwise the just bounce. It is still vandalism and wrong, but should be "terrorising" to anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Wintermute:
No, I do not think the child should have been running around with a weapon that can cause death. I think the parents should have been charged for allowing their children to have access to a loaded and lethal weapon. No, I do not think the police acted justifiably in this incident.

And you accused AnglRdr of using a straw man? As was pointed out, the marker was nonfunctional and of no relevance. They were throwing the paintballs. This a a step above throwing rocks and not likely (in my experience) to cause damage. This would be similar to throwing berries or acorns.

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IMJW-052804

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Wintermute
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Which is why she asked.

Though while making the assumption that one was inclusive of the other. Yes, I wonder if the child has learned to leave his life of debauchery behind. Notice, in no way, shape, or form did I talk about the adults behavior. It is irrelevant to the first question.
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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Wintermute:


quote:
You wondered if the kids had learned their lesson, to which I asked if you felt the adults were justified.
One does not equal the other.
I didn't say that they did. I did not imply such a thing.

Before I took a position on your position, I was attempting to clarify just exactly what your position was.

Which is why I asked the question, without implying that one equaled the other.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Wintermute
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Before I took a position on your position, I was attempting to clarify just exactly what your position was.

Well, if you were trying to link the two events then why would my statement abut the child raise the question of the adults? It is simple that you were trying to link my statement about the child to the behavior of the adults. Otherwise, you would not have implied all the silliness that you did.
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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I just asked a NFBSKing question.

That is all.

Nothing less, nothing more.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Dropbear
Angels from the Realms so Glurgy


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr
Isn't "meet" spelled "mete?"

Dammit - yes. I knew there was something iffy about that spelling.
[Embarrassed]

--------------------
" The villagers had said justice had been done, and she'd lost patience and told them to go home, then, and pray to whatever gods they believed in that it was never done to them. -- (Terry Pratchett)

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Beastly Despot
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties:
How do you feel about vigilante punishment of blasphemy? [Wink]

Four Kitties

Heh. I missed this earlier, but that's a great question. Funny buy thought-provoking.

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"I have a cunning plan"

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jtelson
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Funny, but not particularly relevent. Ask again when blasphemy's illegal.

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"Eternal pain and damnation await those who question the unconditional love of God."-Bill Hicks (1961-1994)

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Ben Who
Deck the Malls


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Can't help but notice that Wintermute, in about 50 posts on the subject, has never actually answered the question. He's attacked the parents, the kids, the police, nearly everyone who's asked him about it, and he'll probably bash me after he's done reading this. The only people he hasn't attacked are the grown men who forced two underaged kids to strip and then drove them around town.

Evidently Wintermute feels that there are certain justifiable occasions to forcing underaged kids to strip and driving them around town.

Ball's in your court, Wintermute.

Love, Who?

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Hero_Mike
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I remember vaguely many years ago that in Texas, a school principal called a parent to inform them that their child would receive some kind of physical punishment ("the strap") for some offence. The parent told the principal that they were not to touch their child, and that they would punish them in a way they felt appropriate. Maybe they didn't like corporal punishment. Maybe they had something more appropriate in mind. In any case, the principal said he was doing his duty to inform them, but would go ahead with the punishment anyway. The parents then later pressed charges against the principal for assault. Why? Whether or not a child deserves it, people still have the right to not have their children arbitrarily punished by anyone.

The bottom line is that you can't harm or "punish" someone else's children without their permission. Making a "citizen's arrest" is possible using only the threat of violence - as soon as you use that violence you are in trouble yourself. This would be, I presume, because you instigate the violence. If someone is running away from an armed robbery, gun in hand, that would be different, but this was not the case. Even if you catch someone in the act, they are still *presumed innocent* until proven guilty, and you do not mete out punishment on your own.

Example - you see me walking down the street with what you think is your iPod. You cause me harm in the process of conducting a "citizen's arrest". Then it turns out to be my own iPod. Who committed a crime here? Last time I checked, resisting a "citizen's arrest" can be classified as "self-defense".

Lot's of people have asked the "what if" question - "what if they were girls" and so on. What if these were adults who were caught? What if they were injured? What if the "arresting" group had a gun? What if one of them invoked his right to defend himself?

Very slippery slope here for the morally superior. There are a lot of people who think they would just toss away the law when it is convenient for them. They are, unfortunately, all wrong.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by jtelson:
Funny, but not particularly relevent. Ask again when blasphemy's illegal.

What about the vigilante punishment of blasphemy in the UK?

--------------------
~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
quote:
Originally posted by jtelson:
Funny, but not particularly relevent. Ask again when blasphemy's illegal.

What about the vigilante punishment of blasphemy in the UK?
Ok, without wanting to get into the main argument, I have to ask;

What vigilante punishment of blasphemy in the UK? Recently? Did I miss something?

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But of course, I could be wrong.

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Mistletoey Chloe
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Hypothetical. See 4K above, and jtelson's response.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Ah, all becomes clear - it just caught my eye in active topics and I couldn't find any explanation among the mangled carriages, twisted rails and fire engines. [Wink]

Thanks very much, I'll now leave you to your 'full and frank exchange of views'.

--------------------
But of course, I could be wrong.

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Oualawouzou
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
Making a "citizen's arrest" is possible using only the threat of violence - as soon as you use that violence you are in trouble yourself.

This varies from state to state. After a quick Google search, it seems to me force is acceptable in most cases, although excessive or deadly force is not.

ETA: and weither or not the person you arrested could sue you for any harm done (provided you didn't use excessive force) depends on state law as well.

--------------------
Le champignon arrive.

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Oualawouzou:
quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
Making a "citizen's arrest" is possible using only the threat of violence - as soon as you use that violence you are in trouble yourself.

This varies from state to state. After a quick Google search, it seems to me force is acceptable in most cases, although excessive or deadly force is not.

ETA: and weither or not the person you arrested could sue you for any harm done (provided you didn't use excessive force) depends on state law as well.

The use of force and how much will greatly depend upon how the case against the arrested person comes out. I think that this is something that normally protects the rights of a person who is eventually found to be innocent - i.e. you can't be arbitrarily assaulted by someone for what they *perceive* to be a crime. If I am using a coat hanger to get into my own car, someone may presume I am stealing it, and use force to "detain" me because they don't believe my explanation. I am committing no crime - what are my rights? Do I just sit back and take my lumps when someone yells "citizen's arrest"? What if a mugger yells "Citizen's Arrest" as they club me into submission (and I don't retaliate for fear of further prosecution for defending myself) and *then* takes my wallet when I've been subdued?

One thing I have heard is that you can only perform a citizen's arrest during a crime in progress. I should have remembered this during my previous example. I don't believe you can arrest someone for something you haven't personally witnessed, though the case of someone having your stolen property is another story.

Cites and searches will have to come later...I'm having a hayfever attack...

--------------------
"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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Oualawouzou
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
What if a mugger yells "Citizen's Arrest" as they club me into submission (and I don't retaliate for fear of further prosecution for defending myself) and *then* takes my wallet when I've been subdued?

Clubbing someone who is not resisting is very clearly an abuse of force. If someone tells you "You are under arrest", they also have the obligation to tell you why and to contact the police immediately. From what I've seen, you can't be prosecuted for resisting this type of arrest (like you would for an arrest made by an officer). However, the person arresting you has the right (but not the obligation) to physically coerce you into waiting for the police to arrive (within reason, of course). In most states (again, it varies), as long as this person uses reasonnable force, they won't be prosecuted; but if you physically resist the arrest, you might be prosecuted for assault.

In other words, you have every right to defend yourself against an unwarranted assault. Know your rights and you should be able to tell apart citizen arrests and mugging without much trouble.

quote:
One thing I have heard is that you can only perform a citizen's arrest during a crime in progress.
Again, this varies by state. Some states allow a citizen arrest if you have "reasonnable grounds" to believe a crime has been committed by the person you are arresting. Other states require you to actually witness the crime.

ETA:
quote:
The use of force and how much will greatly depend upon how the case against the arrested person comes out. I think that this is something that normally protects the rights of a person who is eventually found to be innocent - i.e. you can't be arbitrarily assaulted by someone for what they *perceive* to be a crime.
Again, varies by state. Some state protect citizens who make a mistake during a citizen arrest, others don't.

--------------------
Le champignon arrive.

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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Context, people, context!

jtelson if you'd read the thread, you would have found this little gem of an exchange:
quote:
Originally posted by Troodon:
Personally I think making the kids strip was a stupid thing to do, and illegal as well. However, I don't think it was wrong, in the sense of being morally wrong.

quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties:
There are plenty of things that are morally wrong that are not illegal, particularly since there are so many different moralities out there.

How do you feel about vigilante punishment of blasphemy? [Wink]

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that blasphemy is a crime in the UK (thanks for the reminder, Chloe!), then we enter a discussion of what is morally wrong, what is illegal, and what is both. Anyone else care to take it in that direction?

And yes, I spelled "mete" wrong. [fish]

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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timbobmc
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Actually, I think the adults should have stripped the little NFBSKs to their underwear, tied them to a tree, and smeared them witht he remaining paintballs. Then called the cops themselves and tell them where to find the kids.

I think vandals of any age deserve whatever punishment, and more, that they get.

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Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen.

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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What do people who commit assault deserve?

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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And kidnapping. Don't forget the illegal restraint.

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Excessive force is hard to explain becaise as soon as you the person resists, the situation could quickly turn into one where the force is no longer for the purpose of detention, but for self defense. If you, for example, grab the arm of a fleeing suspect, that may be fine (depending on the laws in that state), but at that point the suspect starts to fight back, you may need to use enough force to injure the person merely to avoid injury to yourself.
A citizen's arrest should be performed only in a case of dire emergency or if the suspect is certain to be peaceful. Otherwise it is too dangerous to both parties involved and may even endanger the police officer(s) who arrive.
I would advise anyone to call the police first and to not try to detain criminals if it can be avoided.

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Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

IMJW-052804

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Shadowduck
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by timbobmc:
Actually, I think the adults should have stripped the little NFBSKs to their underwear, tied them to a tree, and smeared them witht he remaining paintballs. Then called the cops themselves and tell them where to find the kids.

I think vandals of any age deserve whatever punishment, and more, that they get.

And you're a teacher? [Eek!]

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But of course, I could be wrong.

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timbobmc
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Yep

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Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen.

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timbobmc
Jingle Bell Hock


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I'm a popular teacher, too. BUT I teach K-4, so you can still control the kids with a good fussing.

I'm not religious, but I believe the punishment should fit the crime. They vandalized things with paintballs, hit them with paintballs.

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Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen.

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties:
]
Leaving aside for the moment the fact that blasphemy is a crime in the UK (thanks for the reminder, Chloe!), then we enter a discussion of what is morally wrong, what is illegal, and what is both. Anyone else care to take it in that direction?

IMO, morality is irrelavent when it comes to enforcing the law. Whether what the kids were doing was moral or not is irrelavent, as is the question of guilt. What they deserved was to be apprehended and given an opportunity to due process, that it the law. What they got was kidnapped and sexually assalted. They did not deserve what they got because no one deserves to be the victim of a crime. IMO, it is that simple.

The alternative is that these guys give the kids vigilante justice, the kids' parents decide the the guys went to far, dish out some of thier own. The families of the guys decide that the families went too far and before we know it it's tha Hatfields and McCoys all over again.
We have to police for a reason. If you choose not to do things according to the law, no matter how justified that you feel that you were, you deserve to be arrested and tried for your crime.

If you feel that the law is immoral (because I know that question is coming), then become active and get it changed. That is why our country has a way to change our laws. You can write to your congressman, you can challenge the law in court. You can even hold a (peaceful) demonstration. Our system works best when everyone participates. It fails when only those with an adgenda do.

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Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

IMJW-052804

Posts: 7224 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I agree with DemonWolf. Woohoo!

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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