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Author Topic: Stripping can be lucrative, students told at career day
Pretty Penny
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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Penny:
If that's the case, then I'm glad I didn't respond. These "what is morality" discussions are best suited for a college dorm room filled with post-bender philosophy majors at 2am before finals.

So you try to make a point by saying:
quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Penny:
In a democracy, laws are essentially a societal determination of morality.

But, you are now copping out of the discussion because morality should be dicussed in dorm rooms? Are you grasping at straws now?

I think I've been pretty open and honest in this discussion, thank you very much. But I don't see the point in going down the "moral equivalence" road. I think being a stripper is more moral than being a prostitute just as I think being a nurse is more moral than being a prostitute.

quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:

Beach...seems like your position ran afoul of your own reasoning...Life!

My position was, is and shall be that stripping is a valid vocational option for both women and men. And if you think my personal morality (stripping more moral than prostitution) makes me a hypocrite, then I guess I'll take some sominex to help me sleep at night.
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Oualawouzou
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
My position was, is and shall be that stripping is a valid vocational option for both women and men. And if you think my personal moralty makes me a hypocrite, then I guess I'll take some sominex to help me sleep at night.
Actually, it's more an attempt to understand the basis of what differentiates "moral" and "immoral" for you. So far, your arguments seem to run afoul of each other, that's why people ask you to sort it out.

Prostitution isn't immoral because it is immoral, just like it isn't moral because it is moral. You seemed to have said that it wasn't moral because it is illegal and law and morality are linked. Now, you're backing off of this. So, which is it?

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Pretty Penny
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I don't see how I'm backing off my statement that law and morality are linked.
From dictionary.com; Law = A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature.

I've made exactly one personal determination of morality (analogies aside). And that was that stripping is more moral than prostitution. I don't think that's a particularly unusual position to take. That's true in a legal sense and that's true in a personal sense.
Aside from defending my opinion that stripper does not equal uneducated prostitute, I had no problem with people asserting their own varying morals on me or my job. I only said that stripping was a valid occupation and as legit as any other. That doesn't mean it is as moral as any other any more than a bartender is as moral as a pediatrician in a NICU. But they're still both valid professions. I think I was quite clear in stating that stripping wasn't a [b]good[/i] option for all kids, so I am perfectly aware of the distinctions, moral and otherwise, between different careers.

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littleshop
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quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Penny:
I only said that stripping was a valid occupation and as legit as any other. That doesn't mean it is as moral as any other any more than a bartender is as moral as a pediatrician in a NICU. But they're still both valid professions.

I think what people are asking for is the reasoning behind your argument. In the last few posts you have argued that stripping is valid because it is valid, but people are asking you, "on what basis?"

They're trying to see if your argument is that stripping is valid because it is legal, while prostitution isn't valid because it is illegal. After that come the ancilliary questions about whether everything illegal is necessarily immoral.

It's not a personal attack on your career but an inquiry into your reasons.

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Mad Jay
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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Penny:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Jay:
Mowing down a schoolbus full of nuns is immoral because the nuns might get killed or hurt. Again, why is prostitution immorral?
If prostitution were legal, would you say that prostitution is moral?

Maybe I'd be more receptive if I knew where you were going with this.

In other words.......

What's yer point?

Seems like his point is; do you really feel that what is legal is therefor also moral?
Actually, Beach that is part of it, because I think she is begging the question

PrettyPenny, I'm not going anywhere with this. I'm not leading you on to any dangeruos ground. I just want to know why you think prostitution is immorral.

You say that prostitution is immoral because it's illegal, and then post a link that defines "legal" as something based on morals. Now, these 2 statements are anti-thetical of each other. You can take a position that either has morality based on legality, or you can have a legality based on morality, but not both. If your position is that both statements are true, then you are creating a cyclical argument. In essence, you are saying, prostitution is immorral because it's illegal because it's immorral because it's illegal.

I'm not trying to batter you. You can always say that you think prostitution is immoral because you feel it's immorral, or because you mom told you, or because whatever, and I will accept it. But, saying that prositution is immorral because it's illegal, is creating a cyclical argument

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Jay Temple
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quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Penny:
quote:
Originally posted by Fowlplay:
The thing I find amusing here is that both parties that were former exotic dancers, don't like their job choices being looked down upon by 'morally superior' people, but they have no problem being morally superior to a prostitute.

Fowl"at some point, we're all hypocrites"play

Only in the sense that a pharmacist is morally superior to a drug dealer. (emphasis added)
The word "only" has been overlooked in this discussion, and I think it is an important element of her response. I agree with the earlier post that whatever consenting adults do is not immoral unless it harms an outside party. That said, when people break the law, it diminishes respect for the law, which is bad for society. To that very limited extent, one can say that an illegal activity is a little less moral than it would be if it were legal, or than a similar activity that is legal.

As an aside, I believe that if a law makes illegal something that is not otherwise immoral, then that law is itself immoral--because it too diminishes respect for the law.

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Pretty Penny
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Jay:

You say that prostitution is immoral because it's illegal, and then post a link that defines "legal" as something based on morals. Now, these 2 statements are anti-thetical of each other. You can take a position that either has morality based on legality, or you can have a legality based on morality, but not both. If your position is that both statements are true, then you are creating a cyclical argument. In essence, you are saying, prostitution is immorral because it's illegal because it's immorral because it's illegal.

If A=B, then B=A. It's not circular. It's mathematic certainty.
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Jay:

I'm not trying to batter you. You can always say that you think prostitution is immoral because you feel it's immorral, or because you mom told you, or because whatever, and I will accept it. But, saying that prositution is immorral because it's illegal, is creating a cyclical argument

If not supported by law, then all questions of personal morals come down to "because I said so". But that aside, I don't know of any example where anyone gave or received a disease from stripping. In my opinion, a married man watching a stripper is not adultery. I can't same the same of prostitution.
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Rhiandmoi
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Pretty Penny:I am trying to understand your position. Your reason for prostitution being immoral and stripping not is because the level of contact is greater than stripping. Is that right?

Or are you saying that it is immoral to break the law no matter what the law is, and since prostitution is illegal, it is immoral?

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Noemi
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quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Penny:
In my opinion, a married man watching a stripper is not adultery. I can't same the same of prostitution.

What can be considered adultery is fluid and depends on the people involved. What is your feeling about a situation where someone has permission from their spouse/spice, SO or whatever to see a prostitute and it is somewhere that prostitution is legal?

Noemi

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Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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Pretty Penny
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhi and Moi's High Sole Roulade:
Pretty Penny:I am trying to understand your position. Your reason for prostitution being immoral and stripping not is because the level of contact is greater than stripping. Is that right?
Or are you saying that it is immoral to break the law no matter what the law is, and since prostitution is illegal, it is immoral?

One of the reasons that I personally believe prostitution is less moral than stripping is because it's illegal. Another reason I believe it to be less moral than stripping is because of the likelihood of disease transmission. I don't see how these opinions are controversial or confusing.
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Pretty Penny
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemi:
What can be considered adultery is fluid and depends on the people involved. What is your feeling about a situation where someone has permission from their spouse/spice, SO or whatever to see a prostitute and it is somewhere that prostitution is legal?
Noemi

As I said above, where not covered by law morality is personal. If your personal morals say it's ok, then it is for you.
It wouldn't be for me.

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Wizard of Yendor
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quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Penny:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Jay:

You say that prostitution is immoral because it's illegal, and then post a link that defines "legal" as something based on morals. Now, these 2 statements are anti-thetical of each other. You can take a position that either has morality based on legality, or you can have a legality based on morality, but not both. If your position is that both statements are true, then you are creating a cyclical argument. In essence, you are saying, prostitution is immorral because it's illegal because it's immorral because it's illegal.

If A=B, then B=A. It's not circular. It's mathematic certainty.
This I find hihgly disturbing. Are you really saying that the law is identical to morality? I cna accept the opinion that it is always immoral to break the law (though I don't agree with it) but you seem to suggest that the reverse it true as well, that it's never immoral to do something that is legal. Which as I said, is highly disturbing. I hope I'm missunderstanding you.
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Pretty Penny
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You're misunderstanding me.
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Mad Jay
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Penny:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Jay:

You say that prostitution is immoral because it's illegal, and then post a link that defines "legal" as something based on morals. Now, these 2 statements are anti-thetical of each other. You can take a position that either has morality based on legality, or you can have a legality based on morality, but not both. If your position is that both statements are true, then you are creating a cyclical argument. In essence, you are saying, prostitution is immorral because it's illegal because it's immorral because it's illegal.

If A=B, then B=A. It's not circular. It's mathematic certainty.

Aha!!! But when you say A implies B, that doesnt mean A = B. If all Lokums are Shlokums, that doesnt mean all Shokums are Lokums. I think you have a basic misunderstanding of set theory

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SweetieBird
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Penny:
As I said above, where not covered by law morality is personal. If your personal morals say it's ok, then it is for you. It wouldn't be for me.

Okay -- Child pornography is illegal, obviously. But let's say some guy finds an advertisement for little boy's underwear. He uses the ad's picture to sexually gratify himself.

The man is completely alone and no one will ever know what he is doing. Is the man acting immorally? If his personal morals say it's okay, then it is?

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BeachLife
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quote:
One of the reasons that I personally believe prostitution is less moral than stripping is because it's illegal. Another reason I believe it to be less moral than stripping is because of the likelihood of disease transmission. I don't see how these opinions are controversial or confusing. [/QB]
So in Nevada, where prostitution is legal, both are equally moral? Does morality change with government boundries. In places where stipping is illegal, are stripping and prostitution equally immoral? Are you immoral in these places, or only if you strip in these places? If I stip in a town where it's illegal, but live in a town where it's legal am I moral or immoral?

Nurses, doctors, dental hygenists, and dentists have a higher than normal likelihood of transmitting diseases. Are they immoral? Is a nurse or dentist who doesn't wear rubber gloves more immoral than a prostitute who always insists her john wear condoms.

Beach...or maybe morality is based on something else...Life!

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Pretty Penny
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
So in Nevada, where prostitution is legal, both are equally moral? Does morality change with government boundries. In places where stipping is illegal, are stripping and prostitution equally immoral? Are you immoral in these places, or only if you strip in these places? If I stip in a town where it's illegal, but live in a town where it's legal am I moral or immoral?

Asked and answered
quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:

Nurses, doctors, dental hygenists, and dentists have a higher than normal likelihood of transmitting diseases. Are they immoral? Is a nurse or dentist who doesn't wear rubber gloves more immoral than a prostitute who always insists her john wear condoms.

Are you honestly equating dentistry and prostitution?
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Oualawouzou
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Are you honestly equating dentistry and prostitution?
Given there are areas where both are legal, and that both carry the risks of transmitting diseases, and that these two were reasons you gave to judge of the morality of prostitution, yes, you can ask for a comparison. Is a negligent dentist more or less moral than a careful prostitute?

ETA: If I may ask so bluntly, do you believe that prostitution is inherently immoral, regardless of law, health, etc.?

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Pretty Penny
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quote:
Originally posted by Oualawouzou:
quote:
Are you honestly equating dentistry and prostitution?
Given there are areas where both are legal, and that both carry the risks of transmitting diseases, and that these two were reasons you gave to judge of the morality of prostitution, yes, you can ask for a comparison. Is a negligent dentist more or less moral than a careful prostitute?
The risk of disease transfer between a prostitute and a john is significantly higher than between a dentist and patient even with protection used. For there to be a fluid transfer from a dentist, he would have to be wearing no gloves, no disinfectant and would have to have an open wound. The same can't be said for a prostitute.
quote:
Originally posted by Oualawouzou:

ETA: If I may ask so bluntly, do you believe that prostitution is inherently immoral, regardless of law, health, etc.?

It's not a matter of moral/immoral. It's a matter of less moral/more moral.
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Oualawouzou
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quote:
It's not a matter of moral/immoral. It's a matter of less moral/more moral.
Ok then, that it is inherently less moral than other jobs, regardless of law, health, etc.?

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Le champignon arrive.

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Pretty Penny
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quote:
Originally posted by Oualawouzou:
quote:
It's not a matter of moral/immoral. It's a matter of less moral/more moral.
Ok then, that it is inherently less moral than other jobs, regardless of law, health, etc.?
I've already said (repeatedly) that I think it's less moral than stripping/nursing/etc. I think nursing is more moral than stripping. I think being a fireman is more moral than being a bartender. These beliefs probably put me comfortably in the 95th percentile of human beings. I still don't see the controversy.
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Wizard of Yendor
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Pretty Penny:
You're misunderstanding me.

Thank goofness.
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SweetieBird
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anyone else feel like hitting their head against a brick wall?

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Pretty Penny
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Sure. I absolutely feel like hitting their heads against a brick wall. [Smile]
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BeachLife
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So I imagine you would agree that stripping is probably one of the least moral of legal professions, right?

If not, please list a half dozen profesions which are 'less' moral.

Beach...not that morality can be qualified, but let's pretend for now...Life!

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Jon Up North
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Beach: IMHO what this really comes down to is either fear or shame of your own sexuallity and I honestly think it is being projected against others who are more relaxed about things.

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Pretty Penny
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
So I imagine you would agree that stripping is probably one of the least moral of legal professions, right?
If not, please list a half dozen profesions which are 'less' moral.

How about I rattle off some I feel are the moral equivalent?

Romance novelist, video game designer, actress, model, poet, etc. They're all in the business of selling fantasy.

And just so I understand where you're coming from, you play Halo 2, right? So apparently (in your world) playing out the fantasy of killing hundreds of people/aliens with rocket launchers/grenades/machine guns is morally a-ok, but watching a woman take her clothes off is not. And paying a few bucks to see a woman's breasts is much more objectionable than paying hundreds of dollars to see unimaginable violence and destruction played out in your online fantasy world.

Yeah, that makes sense.

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BeachLife
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So any kind of fantasy or fiction is immoral or less moral than reality?

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Pretty Penny
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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
So any kind of fantasy or fiction is immoral or less moral than reality?

That depends on what the reality is, doesn't it?
But you digress.
Do you think spending dozens of hours blowing up buildings and people online is morally superior to spending a couple of hours watching me take my top off?

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Jon Up North
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Or right from the beginning:

Is being naked immoral?

Is having someone see you naked immoral?

Is having more than one person see you naked immoral?

Is earninng money immoral?

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Wintermute
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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
If not, please list a half dozen profesions which are 'less' moral.

Lawyers
Arthur Anderson Accountant
Lawyers

She was taking her clothing off. Big deal.
from the looks of her picture I am sure she made a lot of money.
Now, I have to find some humor that you are trying to condem her, but not the people that went to the clubs to see her.
Penny if you used it as a means to an end then more power to you.

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Johnny Slick
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I think he's going too far with the lawyer thing (not that I think that stripping is way immoral or anything; it's just on that "I really don't care about its morality list"), but for the first time ever, I think I agree with Wintermute!

Woo hoo! Give me a hug, big guy!

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BeachLife
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quote:
Originally posted by Wintermute:
quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
If not, please list a half dozen profesions which are 'less' moral.

Lawyers
Arthur Anderson Accountant
Lawyers

She was taking her clothing off. Big deal.
from the looks of her picture I am sure she made a lot of money.
Now, I have to find some humor that you are trying to condem her, but not the people that went to the clubs to see her.
Penny if you used it as a means to an end then more power to you.

But it's never been about what Penny is doing. It's about whether Penny should step into a class room of someone else's 12 and 13 year olds and tell them that taking thier clothes off for money is a good idea.

For most kids it would have no effect, some kids would seriously get the wrong idea. Others would be subjected to something they or their parents find morally objectionable. Should the school make decision based on the morals of the few parents who think there is nothing wrong with that, or the many who don't want thier kids to be subjected to a stripper on career day?

Beach...it's not about Penny's self esteam...Life!

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Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
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Jon Up North
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quote:
So any kind of fantasy or fiction is immoral or less moral than reality?
Well, certainly the bible is less moral than reality [Wink]

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Wintermute
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
Should the school make decision based on the morals of the few parents who think there is nothing wrong with that, or the many who don't want thier kids to be subjected to a stripper on career day?

And some parents do not want their children subjected to the police, or military on career days. These are still both noble and legal jobs in my opinion.
Now, I do think 12-13 is to young to be talking to them about strippers, but why not 16-17?
I think the realties of stripping would need to be discussed as well.

Posts: 4580 | From: Walnut Creek, CA | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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