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Author Topic: A Poem For France
Rhea
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
Your statement that:
“If France has lost "every battle since the days of Waterloo", then it is part of the defeated countries and has had no part in its own liberation. And if there haven't been good soldiers in France, how the heck did the Resistance help? Not all Resistance was civilian. the corps-franc Pommiès went all the way to Mannheim, and the division Leclerc was also a bunch of soldiers. The poem spits on them as bad soldiers” is absurd. The French government, along with many other European governments, ignored the German military buildup prior to WW II – or possibly hoped Germany’s military buildup was not a potential problem.

Just out of curiosity: Could you please explain that to me? I don't really understand what France and the rest of the world not recognizing the potential threat from Germany has to do with France allegedly losing every battle since Waterloo.
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Gerard Morvan
Deck the Malls


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Essayons, two questions:

Let's suppose that, instead of the US, it was France that was suffering from a wave of terrorist attacks. Would my country be justified in inva

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"Kentoc'h Mervel !"

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Gerard Morvan
Deck the Malls


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Essayons, two questions:

Let's suppose that, instead of the US, it was France that was suffering from a wave of terrorist attacks. Would my country be justified in inva

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"Kentoc'h Mervel !"

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Gerard Morvan
Deck the Malls


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Essayons, two questions:

Let's suppose that, instead of the US, it was France that was suffering from a wave of terrorist attacks. Would my country be justified in inva

--------------------
"Kentoc'h Mervel !"

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Gerard Morvan
Deck the Malls


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Essayons, two questions:

Let's suppose that, instead of the US, it was France that was suffering from a wave of terrorist attacks. Would my country be justified in invading another country under the pretense that it was helping the terrorists?

And having done so, would France be justified in supporting a puppet government despite a very strong insurgency?

I think fair to warn you here: these are trick questions.

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"Kentoc'h Mervel !"

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Gerard Morvan
Deck the Malls


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Two points about the original poem.

First, France hasn't lost every battle since Waterloo. Among other things, I can direct you to the conquest of Algeria, the Franco-Austrian war (Solferino), the Crimean war (Sebastpol), the Mexican war, WW I and II (the Garigliano, Stuttgart), Kolwezi, and the war against Libya.

Second, France is not the only country to "need" a Foreign Legion. Spain has one too. Besides, the concept is nothing new. The Roman army was a foreign legion. "Barbarians" enlisted and served twenty-five years, and if they survived, they received roman citizenship (Heinlein hasn't invented anything). Plus, other countries have used foreign-born troops. The British have their Gurkhas. And the US had d'Utassy's "Garibaldi Guard". And of course, you've heard of Claire Chennault's Flying Tigers.

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"Kentoc'h Mervel !"

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:

You can be with us or against us but you sure can understand that without us (the US) you would be speaking another language.

Regards,
Dick

Er, just for your information, the French do speak another language. It's called "French." I think I might have identified another reason for why you think those waiters were rude.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Without a soldier worth a damn
to be found within the region,
the French became the only land
to need a Foreign Legion

Foreign-born US soldiers take oath of citizenship in Iraq.

NB: I would like to make it clear that I do not believe that the US Army's increasing dependency on foreign-born soldiers is due to any weakness or inadequacy on the part of the American soldier. That would be an enormously stupid argument. Like, for example, associating the existence of the French Foreign Legion with some sort of weakness or inadequacy on the part of the French soldier.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:

In truth, the poem, Who Stands Alone is not a “poke in the eye” of the individual French soldier – even though, if read verbatim, it does state that as a fact

So, it is a "poke in the eye" but at the same time it isn't ?

Far out man !

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Ghost on Toast
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Gerard and Dara - fantastic posts. The original poem is not only nasty but full of holes.

I don't know if this is relevant but I want to say it. I know I said I'd giev up but I changed my mind.

quote:
Without a soldier worth a damn
to be found within the region,
the French became the only land
to need a Foreign Legion.

The poem says, clearly, that in the opinion of the writer there is not a 'soldier' worth a damn in France. This is not only grossly untrue but incredibly offensive.

Despite Essayon's claim that this poem targets the government and military as a whole this line is very clearly attacking the average soldier.

During the first 16 months alone of World War One alone, and as I've said don't know if this is relevant but I want to say it, 600,000 French were killed. By the end of the war 1.5million French were dead.

After the war around 400,000 French soldiers were unaccounted for. They had either been blown to smithereens or no-one had seen them die and therefore they could not be declared dead. They were simply missing.

Families throughout France lived in hope their loved one was in Germany in a POW camp, they clinged desperately of any news of amnesiac soldiers who returned, ignoring the fact they were blatantly not their loved one in a bid to claim them, such was their grief.

I would suggest, Essayons, you read 'The Living Unknown Soldier' by Jean-Yves La Naour. It is a heartbreaking study into the price France paid during the First World War. Not the government, not the generals but the French people.

And then just a few decades later - they gave everything they had and fought to the death again.

How you can say that there is no French soldier worth a damn is totally beyond me when so many gave up their lives to fight for their country.

OK so they needed some help to win but you cannot say these men weren't brave, and that they didn't pay the ultimate price.

You say to us now that by this stanza in the poem you don't mean individual soldiers but it sure doesn't read that way and out there people are reading this poem and being mislead, you are helping people to form a poor view of France.

So in short not only is your poem a nasty, vindictive, inciteful and hateful piece of clap trap (again, clap trap), it is also hugely irresponsible of you to put it on your site.

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It's been a while but I'm back!!

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Dark Rikku
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:

Rikku, the French Resistance was almost 100 percent civilian and even when compared to the Vichy French; they were a small minority of the French population. They were brave citizens of France who paid a horrible price when the Germans captured them. The French Resistance was NOT an army of the French government in exile. They were citizen “soldiers” who helped the allies secure a D-Day landing. They were very few in numbers but they were very effective.

My statement that they “contributed” to the success of D-Day is just that. They contributed but were in no way the linchpin that D-Day needed to succeed.

Your statement that:
“If France has lost "every battle since the days of Waterloo", then it is part of the defeated countries and has had no part in its own liberation. And if there haven't been good soldiers in France, how the heck did the Resistance help? Not all Resistance was civilian. the corps-franc Pommiès went all the way to Mannheim, and the division Leclerc was also a bunch of soldiers. The poem spits on them as bad soldiers” is absurd. The French government, along with many other European governments, ignored the German military buildup prior to WW II – or possibly hoped Germany’s military buildup was not a potential problem.

Why you posture that a defeated county, France, could not participate in its own liberation via the French Resistance and exiled warriors who were willing to contribute to its liberation after D-Day is equally absurd. “Contribute” is the operative word. They helped. They contributed but they were NOT the linchpin needed for success. De Gaul (spelling purposely mutilated) marched into Paris as a victor after the US forces had captured Paris. Eisenhower provided Eye Candy for the French and it was pompous to boot.

In truth, the poem, Who Stands Alone is not a “poke in the eye” of the individual French soldier – even though, if read verbatim, it does state that as a fact – it really is a condemnation of French politicians and French military leadership. Soldiers are subject to the civilians and generals who lead them. Bad leadership equals bad results. The Germans put a “kaput” on the French. Their ego is deflated and they are no longer the world power of the 19th century.

Today, the US has taken the opposite approach to Europe in the late 1930s. Military superiority is paramount for our existence. The Soviet Union is no longer a threat. We will fight terrorism on other shores to protect the USA. We did not do this during the 1980s and 1990s but we sure as hell are doing it today.

About time!

Whiners and whimps stand aside! We will save your “bacon” only after we have assured our own freedom.

You can be with us or against us but you sure can understand that without us (the US) you would be speaking another language.

Regards,
Dick

Hey, Dick:

1) your unwillingness to consider Resistants as soldiers ignores the fact that they were recognised as soldiers by the allied forces, both during and after the war(FFI, division Leclerc, Giraud troops and CF Pommiès). May I remind you that 100% of soldiers, before they actually enlist, are civilians?

And yes, the *domestic* Resistance was mostly civilian. I know, I received a prize from them for studying them in-depth (Prix de la Résistance). I tend to think it makes the Resistance more appealing. But there also was an outside Resistance, people who left and joined the ranks of the British army as Frenchmen and troops stationed in the colonial empire who created their own corps (mentioned above). Although I do not consider the French state actually continued between 1940-1944, you must recognise that these soldiers were, indeed, "French soldiers" and that your poem said there were no French soldiers "worth a damn". Ergo , and logically, your piece of tripe considers they were not worth a damn, which is insulting to those who fought.

2) your argument that "the French government, along with the rest of the world, ignored the military buildup of Germany", while correct in every respect (but so did the US and British governments), cannot be construed to say that French soldiers aren't "worth a damn". It will have occured to you, I have no doubt, that a government and an army aren't the same thing, unless you are in a military dictatorship. As I am sure you do not suggest every government sould be or is a military dictatorship, then you should have said "without a leader worth a damn", which you did not. You chose soldiers, and for a reason: attacking a whole group, especially in a country where the army is by conscription, is more insulting than insulting "leaders", who in the tradition of populists everywhere are considered "separate" from the people. Nor will I consider "soldiers" is a figure of speech or a meter necessity in a poem that so pathetically ignores both.

3)poor little boy,nobody answers your questions!This is a free debate, you know, and people have a right to consider your question biased and to say so.


4) I do respect the US troops for helping save the day in 1944. And no, if nazi Germany had won, the tricky part for me wouldn't be to speak German, but to be alive at all. But honestly, as I said before, the US arrived rather late in the game. We would be speaking German if the British hadn't held, alone. So France doesn't owe its respect to the US in particular: it owes its respect, if anything, to the alliance, of which it managed to be a part despite the military superiority of Germany, and the whole world owes thanks to the British for carrying on and making this war winnable in the first place.

And said alliance was exactly that: an alliance. If the powers that be, for whatever reason, considered France as an ally in the peace treaties, and not just as a liberated country, then that should be good enough for you. How dare you consider yourself so highly as to deny France's status? Do you think France was given this status out of the kindness of the American heart (yeah, right)? What gives you the right, of your own personal accord, to take back what the Allied high command granted, then ? You think you know better than them?

Your understanding of the war in France is based on a very unilateral and selective reading of the whole war, and dismisses anything that doesn't fit in with your personal agenda. It seems the US was responsible singlehandedly for winning the war over Nazism. Sorry, this is not true. France as a nation (not as a state) did what it could, and this includes a fair share of heroic acts from people who were or became soldiers on the side of the Allies. These people fought to uphold France's honour, and by saying they weren't "worth a damn", you basically deny all they did, simply because you want people to recognise your fascinating "insights" on the fundamental psychology of the French and its history you claim to know.

Honestly, I believe we owe something to all those who fought for France and the rest of the world to remain democracies and to uphold human rights. Our duty is towards that spirit, more than towards the current US administration (that doesn't adequately represent these values, to my mind and that of all the WWII veterans in my family, American and British, who are alive to witness it). I do not believe the war in Iraq will do a blind bit of change-- or perhaps it will make matters worse-- concerning human rights and democracy in Iraq.

The French governement has stated its reasons for believing so. Other governments and institutions have issued similar statements. So far, their analysis (that it would just create a political quagmire from which a guerilla and even worse would-be dictators would rise; that it wouldn't make the world one bit safer, that terrorism would not even be slightly reduced, and that no weapons of mass destruction would be found)seems more valid than the American one.And I honestly wish it weren't so.

So did France betray the spirit of the WWII alliance by saying it would not be part of this ill-prepared, impossible to legitimise operation? No, I don't think so.

Whiners and wimps stand aside! Bumbling incompetence is coming through, with cheap rationalisations to boot!

The people who are betraying the spirit of the WWII alliance are the people who believe countries they've sent soldiers to in the past should grovel at the feet of their masters- exactly like the Warsaw pact was organised, exactly like the relations the french collaborationists thought they should have with Germany.

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Dark Rikku
Santorum happens
Hail bloody marys

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Dark Rikku
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara:
quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:

You can be with us or against us but you sure can understand that without us (the US) you would be speaking another language.

Regards,
Dick

Er, just for your information, the French do speak another language. It's called "French." I think I might have identified another reason for why you think those waiters were rude.
Dara, YOMANK

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Dark Rikku
Santorum happens
Hail bloody marys

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Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Sorry, I didn't notice this whine until now.

quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
Peter H:

I wish to ask a question of you. Did you serve in the US military? You sure were a prime candidate for the draft in the late 60s and early 70s.

I served 25 years in the U.S. Navy, retiring as a Senior Chief (E8).
quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
Your insistence that I am a whiner really pisses me off.

Don't whine to me that you hate being called a whiner. It's not my fault that you're a whiner.
quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
The one thing that people who know me is that they would NEVER claim I am a whiner. Pushy, autocratic, arrogant, disciplined and, yes, a combat leader would be a few of the negatives and positives but whiner - NFW Jose.

Your whining that you're not a whiner isn't convincing.
quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
You seem to have a problem when I mention the Marshall Plan more than once – therefore you call me a whiner. Hey, buba, get a life and accept reality: the Marshall Plan worked.

You're not only a whiner, but you're not too bright. Either that, or your reading comprehension isn't too good. I wasn't saying anything about whether the Marshall Plan worked or not. As it happens, I know that it did work, getting Europe back on its feet economically and stopping the spread of Communism.

No, bubba, I was responding to your whine:

quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
(Now this is bordering on the ridiculous and is nothing more than trying to provoke an argument by injecting a question that I never touched on in my commentary above. I answered this question in the negative in an earlier post!

Originally posted by Peter H:
You brought up the Marshall Plan AGAIN in the post I replied to.

It would help your arguments if you replied to something I said, instead of something you pulled out of your rectum.

quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
Now, Peter H, should you wish to go toe to toe with me I relish the prospect and I guarantee you will go down in flames. Bring it on!

Oh, I'm quivering in my boots. My anal sphincter is just barely under control. Mommy, that mean man's picking on me!

Listen up, whiner, if you want to play silly games, I can play silly games. But I do not take kindly to threats from whiny bullies.

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Ad astra per asparagus.

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Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
The French government, along with many other European governments, ignored the German military buildup prior to WW II – or possibly hoped Germany’s military buildup was not a potential problem.

Obviously you've never heard of the Maginot Line. Learn some history before you start making idiotic statements.

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Ad astra per asparagus.

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Jaime Vargas Sanchez
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Ghost on Toast:

How you can say that there is no French soldier worth a damn is totally beyond me when so many gave up their lives to fight for their country.

Simple. When an American soldier is killed, it's because he's altruistically risking his life. When a French soldier is killed, it's because he's a worthless soldier who's crappy at survival. Can't you see how logical it is? [Roll Eyes]

Jaime

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"Everyone has problems. They only vary in design" - Mama Duck

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Ghost on Toast
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Ah - silly me - now I understand [Smile]

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It's been a while but I'm back!!

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Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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According to legend, when the last square of the Old Guard, surrounded at Waterloo, was invited to surrender rather than be annihilated, their commander, General Etienne Cambronne, shouted back, "La Garde muert, elle ne se rend pas!" (The Guard dies but never surrenders.) However, according to a different version of the legend, he replied, "Merde!", the much more earthy French expression meaning, "Shit!"

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Ad astra per asparagus.

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abigsmurf
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Gotta love the way that everyone forgets how the French Army was literally abandoned and trapped between the Sea and the unstoppable German army whilst the British army made their retreat at dunkirk (which ironically turned out to be one of Britain's biggest victories) and the US was profiting from selling arms to the allies...
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Essayons
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Been away for awhile and I return to complete BS.

At least Rikku backs her statements with logic and references (although I disagree with her I do respect her efforts and will respond later) and since she makes me think about the issues that she raises, it is to my benefit to continue to debate her as I learn from those exchanges.

To quote Peter H.:
Peter, Peter, Peter (to paraphrase that Hollywood lunatic Tom Cruise talking down to Matt Laurer) I have studied WW II and there is no doubt that I am aware of the Maginot Line. Is that the best you can respond with? I challenged you to go toe to toe with me and you took it as a physical confrontation as opposed to a historical/intellectual challenge.

There is a website that is, hmm, disrespectful of the French military history: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html that includes a statement about the Maginot Line as follows:
“Also should be noted that France attempted to hide behind the Maginot line, sticking their head in the sand and pretending that the Germans would enter France that way. By doing so, the Germans would have been breaking with their traditional route of invading France, entering through Belgium (Napoleonic Wars, Franco-Prussian War, World War I, etc.). French ignored this though, and put all their effort into these defenses.”
I chose not to reference the Maginot Line because it was a failure. Not a French soldier failure but rather a French civilian leadership and senior French military failure.

As to your continued references to me as being a whiner, all I can say is: DEPENDS, never leave home without them. Just in case your quivering sphincter muscle lets go. They give you a warm feeling when your bodily functions fail you and nobody will know.

And abigsmurf adds his/her erudite observation:
“Gotta love the way that everyone forgets how the French Army was literally abandoned and trapped between the Sea and the unstoppable German army whilst the British army made their retreat at dunkirk (which ironically turned out to be one of Britain's biggest victories) and the US was profiting from selling arms to the allies...”
The French doomed themselves and Hitler, for some reason, let the Brits escape at Dunkirk. What is your point? Who abandoned the French? Who supported the Brits other than the Brits themselves? The Brits escaped from an untenable situation. The French: kaput.

Yes, US manufacturers were making profits supplying England and the Soviet Union with war material. It was ALL paid for by the US Lend Lease program. No one has paid us back for that pre-US war entry support. Get the facts straight – the US bought the Brits and the Soviet Union precious time by supplying war material in 1940 and 1941 to defend their countries AND NOT ONE DIME HAS BEEN REPAID. So do you still defile the US as warmongering capitalists that CAPITALIZED because of the war? We, the US, paid the bill for your freedom! We paid that bill monetarily and with our soldier’s blood. And your response is: We were profiteering? Ask the 11,000 US soldiers buried at Normandy who profited.

We drove the invasion of Europe on June 6, 1944 and were the linchpin that took the German forces to task. The squeeze between the Soviets and the US forces ended WW II.

And to the idiot who stated that the French speak a foreign language (French), my reference was to their speaking Russian today.

There is no doubt in my mind that without the invasion of Normandy the Russkies would have overrun Europe.

And one more thing, the Marshall Plan rebuilt Europe and not one dime has been paid by the beneficiaries. How many billions of US dollars have we, the US, invested in Europe’s future? Hey, who cares, we are just imperialists who siphon off European profits to our fiscal advantage.

Does Europe owe the US anything? Nah. We just saved your ass and rebuilt your economy and protected you for 60 years against the Soviet Union. Nah, you owe us nothing. We forgave your monetary debt.

We face another war today – Islamic terrorism. 9/11/01 was the Peal Harbor equivalent to 12/7/41. We, the US, have responded and have neutralized Afghanistan as a terrorist nation. Simarilary, we have deposed Saddam.

Will the terrorists attack the US again? Possibly, but they lost two countries as a result of the 9/11 attack. Not a good idea as we will pulverize any nation that attacks us. And, yes, Iraq was conspiring with Al Qaeda. You don’t believe that? Then build a Maginot Line to defend yourselves – end run, right flank – kaput.

Regards,
Dick


“Obviously you've never heard of the Maginot Line. Learn some history before you start making idiotic statements.”
quote:

quote:


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Felessan
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Essayons: Half of Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Poland, and several other nations were occupied by the Soviet Union after 1945. Last I heard, they were still using their native languages, not Russian, even after over four decades of subjugation by the USSR. That line about "if it wasn't for us you'd all be speaking -----" is just so daft.

Reference Lend-Lease: in 1940-41 the US supplied 50 'four-stacker' destroyers for use by the Royal Navy, but not for free. As I understand it, Great Britain gave the US the free use of Carribean bases in return. Cite will follow when I can find it (Chester Wilmot's "The Struggle For Europe", I believe).

Great Britain also supplied the USSR with large amounts of war material - for example, tanks and planes that Britain's own forces needed desperately. The Soviets didn't need hardware.

In Operation Overlord, just before the breakout that culminated in the Falaise Pocket, the bulk of German armour was concentrated against the British-Canadian contingent. Thereafter, the British Army fought hard to liberate Europe. To reduce the Allies to "Soviets and US forces" is just plain wrong.

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You fool! That's not a warrior, that's a banana!
- a surreal moment in a role-playing game

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Unusual Elfin Lights
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
And, yes, Iraq was conspiring with Al Qaeda. You don’t believe that?

Your own government does not believe that.

Iraq was not a state sponsor to terror before the invasion. Now it is the largest state sponsor to terror.

And Iraq had nothing to do with Sept 11. That was an Al Qaeda thing, and yes, they lost the use of most of Afghanistan.

But Iraq, that was your nation engaging in questionable warfare with another nation. Try not to mix the two.

Cheers. [Smile]

Posts: 2064 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dropbear
Angels from the Realms so Glurgy


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quote:
Originally posted by Essayons
Russkies

Russkies?

I find it astonishing that anyone would use this term. It is offensive and intellectually lazy.

If, however, you are going to use this term at least have the courtesy to use the full term: "No-good, godless, commie, pinko, russkies".

You can then go on to discuss the Frogs, the Krauts, Eye-ties, Pomm's and Polacks.

Russkies! ... Holy hell.

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" The villagers had said justice had been done, and she'd lost patience and told them to go home, then, and pray to whatever gods they believed in that it was never done to them. -- (Terry Pratchett)

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abigsmurf
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
[QB] The French doomed themselves and Hitler, for some reason, let the Brits escape at Dunkirk. What is your point? Who abandoned the French? Who supported the Brits other than the Brits themselves? The Brits escaped from an untenable situation. The French: kaput.

They were our allies, last time I heard, allies don't leave each other to die.

quote:

Yes, US manufacturers were making profits supplying England and the Soviet Union with war material. It was ALL paid for by the US Lend Lease program. No one has paid us back for that pre-US war entry support. Get the facts straight – the US bought the Brits and the Soviet Union precious time by supplying war material in 1940 and 1941 to defend their countries AND NOT ONE DIME HAS BEEN REPAID. So do you still defile the US as warmongering capitalists that CAPITALIZED because of the war? We, the US, paid the bill for your freedom! We paid that bill monetarily and with our soldier’s blood. And your response is: We were profiteering? Ask the 11,000 US soldiers buried at Normandy who profited.

The US government used the war to get them out of the depression. The whole point of the Lend Lease program was that, provided the country involved isn't conquered, the US would get a large portion of it's money/goods back. In the mean time, all the jobs created boosts the economy. 11,000 US soldiers may have been killed taking the french beaches but 60,000 British civilians were killed in the bombings by the Nazis before the US were involved.

quote:

We drove the invasion of Europe on June 6, 1944 and were the linchpin that took the German forces to task. The squeeze between the Soviets and the US forces ended WW II.

Despite what speilburg and co would have you believe, the British and canadian forces were heavily involved in the liberation of france and conquering of Germany. In fact the invasion wouldn't have been possible were it not for the RAF decimating the German air forces. There's also an argument that suggests were it not for the Battle of Britain, the German forces would have had enough air support to quickly take russia.

quote:

There is no doubt in my mind that without the invasion of Normandy the Russkies would have overrun Europe.

Communism had no support in the UK and Churchill deeply hated Stalin. It's questionable if the USSR would have been able to get communism in power in France and GB without more war (which stalin wouldn't have wanted).

quote:

And one more thing, the Marshall Plan rebuilt Europe and not one dime has been paid by the beneficiaries. How many billions of US dollars have we, the US, invested in Europe’s future? Hey, who cares, we are just imperialists who siphon off European profits to our fiscal advantage.

England and France still paid back many billions. The marshall plan was used mainly to serve US interests : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_plan look at the histiography at the bottom

quote:

Does Europe owe the US anything? Nah. We just saved your ass and rebuilt your economy and protected you for 60 years against the Soviet Union. Nah, you owe us nothing. We forgave your monetary debt.

Apart from forcing us to disband most of the British empire and all the US bases we gave you in the UK of course...
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Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
To quote Peter H.:

The whiner will now post something that I never said, but this is a minor point.
quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
Peter, Peter, Peter (to paraphrase that Hollywood lunatic Tom Cruise talking down to Matt Laurer)

I'm supposed to be impressed that you can paraphrase Cruise? Or am I supposed to be impressed that you can write my name three times?
quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
I have studied WW II and there is no doubt that I am aware of the Maginot Line.

I'm supposed to be impressed that you read a book or two about WW2?

quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
Is that the best you can respond with?

I notice that you while you try to dismiss my comment with a sneer, you fail to show how it's a weak argument. An ignorant quote from a website that specializes in flashes is not good evidence of the Maginot Line's failure. Is that the best you can come up with?
quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
I challenged you to go toe to toe with me and you took it as a physical confrontation as opposed to a historical/intellectual challenge.

So you pretend that I offered a physical confrontation? You've gone into the realm of the silly.

No, whiner, I expected you to do exactly what you did do. Whine, lie, and otherwise show that you're an asshole.

quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
There is a website that is, hmm, disrespectful of the French military history: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html that includes a statement about the Maginot Line as follows:
[b]“Also should be noted that France attempted to hide behind the Maginot line, sticking their head in the sand and pretending that the Germans would enter France that way. By doing so, the Germans would have been breaking with their traditional route of invading France, entering through Belgium (Napoleonic Wars, Franco-Prussian War, World War I, etc.). French ignored this though, and put all their effort into these defenses.”
I chose not to reference the Maginot Line because it was a failure. Not a French soldier failure but rather a French civilian leadership and senior French military failure.

I will respond to this idiocy in a separate post. I just point out two things:
(1) http://www.albinoblacksheep.com is a website that specializes in flashes ( Gollum Rap is one of their better ones). It can hardly be considered authoritive on WW2.
(2) Qhen the Germans did invade France, they went through the parts of the French frontier not protected by the Maginot Line.

quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
As to your continued references to me as being a whiner, all I can say is: DEPENDS, never leave home without them. Just in case your quivering sphincter muscle lets go. They give you a warm feeling when your bodily functions fail you and nobody will know.

I love the way you whine "I'll show you I'm not a whiner...I'll...I'll...I'll make a schoolyard taunt at you! So there! Nyah!"

I was particularly impressed by your final comment. It certainly shows the depths of your knowledge of the Second World War.
quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
“Obviously you've never heard of the Maginot Line. Learn some history before you start making idiotic statements.”
quote:

quote:




--------------------
Ad astra per asparagus.

Posts: 4806 | From: Groton, CT | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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The seeds of the Maginot Line were sown in the trench slaughter of WWI. After much debate, in the late 1920s the French began to develop an elaborate system of fortifications on their frontier with Germany. Named after a War Minister who had lost an arm at Verdun, the Maginot Line was designed to prevent a direct German invasion of France by making such an attempt prohibitively costly in lives and time, permitting the French to husband their resources in the rear for a decisive counterstroke with mobile forces.

The basic concept was by no means as absurd as modern mythology would have us believe. Among the greatest fortification experts in the world since the 17th Century, the French were fully aware that their proposed new fortified zone (it wasn't a "line" at all) was not impregnable. But it would be so difficult to break that it would deter a German offensive into northeastern France. Unable to deliver a swift, decisive blow against it, the Germans would have to give up all thought of war with France, or accept to protracted war of attrition, or find an alternative way to carry on a war. It was this last possibility that French policymakers perceived as the most likely eventuality, specifically a German thrust into Begium. Such an undertaking by a revitalized Germany would inevitably bring Britain into the war on the side of France, a necessity given France's manpower inferiority vis a vis Germany. So the principal function of the Maginot Line was to canalize a German offensive into Belgium, where it could be met by motorized French armies supported by British resources. This plan had the added (if unspoken) advantage of having the horrors of war visited upon Belgium rather than France.

In 1940 the Germans came through the Ardennes Forest specifically because it weren't covered by the Maginot Line.

--------------------
Ad astra per asparagus.

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smoke
Corn on the Cobweb


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quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
Sooey is correct. Canadians were a major player in WW II as were the Polish soldiers. Neither gets the respect they earned on the field of battle. The French Resistance was a contributor to the success of D-Day and they should be recognized as such. Can someone tell me who was (Canadian soldiers, Polish soldiers, French Resistance) most helpful on D-Day and beyond?

Skip forward to Vietnam and the Paris Peace Accords of early 1973 and the total withdrawal of US combat troops from Vietnam in March of 1973. Who broke the Paris Peace Accords in 1974 that led to the defeat of South Vietnam in 1975?

There is the ongoing dialog that the US is “evil”, “imperialistic” and whatever else opponents of our policy can throw against us. There is also the generalized statement that during the Vietnam War that Canada sent 30,000 of its best men to fight the Vietnam War and the US sent 30,000 of its draft dodgers to Canada.

Since sooey is Canadian, I would ask that she respond, and any others who wish to, to a 1973 broadcast by Gordon Sinclair: http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Our_Culture/americans.htm

Most of the broadcast (1973) by Sinclair is true today. The exception is Airbus. And the Boeing/Airbus competition is still in doubt.

Regards,
Dick

We didn't "send" any troops to Vietnam thsoe 30,000 were Canadians who volunteered for the US military http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-71-1413/conflict_war/vietnam/ which would make them Oh I don't know kind of a Foreign Legion for the US?

As for D-day and WW2 in general no our military doesn't get much recognition in the US despite being the only country to actually acheive it's objective on D-day.
As for De gaulle being allowed to march into Paris before US troops as a propaganda tool Essayons you might want to explain to me why the Canadian troops who reached Rome first had to wait to enter until the US command arrived. seems like propaganda to me but perhaps you can refute that, you know since your the Tom Cruise of World war 2 knowledge.

As for owing other countries.... hmmm where do you think all your air traffic went on 911 Essayons ?
Here in Canada where people put your countrymen up in their homes. You know what we got from your President for doing this? Not even a NFBSKing thank you.
We joined you in Afganistan and what did we get?
Our biggest casualties being the result of American friendly fire by a cowboy pilot.
If you're going to claim France owes the us support because of the two world wars (both of which you guys were late joining) you might want to check back to 1776 and 1812 and realize you'd be singing God Save the Queen if it wasn't for France.
Two for France two for the US, debts all squared. France doesn't owe you anything.

Gordon Sinclairs broadcast is from 1973 is irrelevant to the Iraqui war. It isn't even particularly relevant to the Vietnam war. It's about how the US gives disaster aid but gets none and gets no credit for the good it does but gets critisized for many things.

--------------------
I sat on the cat. Now he is flat. Think I'll wear him outside as a hat.
'Bout time he did something useful-- an original poem by Smoke
(no cats were hurt in making this poem but one came damn close.)

Posts: 374 | From: the right side of the Detroit River Ontario | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
smoke
Corn on the Cobweb


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quote:
Originally posted by sooey:
gosh, as a canadian it's becoming harder and harder to choose between mocking the french and mocking americans when it comes to wwii historificalitologyneretics. i mean, "la resistance" gets bigger every time un petit bebe is born, yet the british still had to sink le freakin' navy so the germans wouldn't sail off with it. but... americans made "pearl harbour" - with ben affleck but no jlo - and they were like... homating (or whatever it's called when the guy is gay but the girl is... puerto rican?) yup - americans still come out on top in mockworth value. yay! (lucky for canada we're on top and the weight of our big hard rocks can crush you if necessary - be afraid - be very afraid... bwahahahahahaha. yup. and we've got the queen - don't forget our queen. she's a mean queen, too, and don't take too kindly to her colonies gettin' no credit where at least LOTS OF!! credit is due - on wwii, at least (heheh - we suck on iraq, eh. but like, so do americans, so... and i don't think the queen approves, either. her lips look more pursed than usual around tony blair, these days, i've noticed.) no offence, eh.

sooey i understood this on first reading no problem.
maybe its a Canadian humour thing eh?
thought you was trolling a bit after but no problem bud
debates here are beauty eh?

--------------------
I sat on the cat. Now he is flat. Think I'll wear him outside as a hat.
'Bout time he did something useful-- an original poem by Smoke
(no cats were hurt in making this poem but one came damn close.)

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Zampano
On Her Majesty's Secret Room Service


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This whole debate of "who owes who" is taking a perverse twist. France being indebted to the US people is not synonymous with France having to comply with Bush Jr.'s every whim. As for Iraq's specific case, France was trying to help the US by warning them of their strategy's flaws. If a man gets dumped by his fiancée and vows to beat the first woman he'll cross, the best friend's role is NOT to tell him : "Go ahead, you're my buddy so you can't be wrong."

--------------------
Dear members of the Nobel academy, you must wonder : is this man a madman or a genius ? Well, I'm both. I'm a mad genius. (proceeds to show how M&M's reverse aging.)

Posts: 103 | From: Paris, France | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
smoke
Corn on the Cobweb


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quote:
Originally posted by Zampano:
This whole debate of "who owes who" is taking a perverse twist. France being indebted to the US people is not synonymous with France having to comply with Bush Jr.'s every whim. As for Iraq's specific case, France was trying to help the US by warning them of their strategy's flaws. If a man gets dumped by his fiancée and vows to beat the first woman he'll cross, the best friend's role is NOT to tell him : "Go ahead, you're my buddy so you can't be wrong."

I only brought up the who owe's who debate as that is the underlyng premise of the poem in the OP (long long ago) that France owes the Us allegiance. I like your allegory. A true friend is one who is willing to tell you you're making a mistake. Sometimes however the friend doesn't listen.

--------------------
I sat on the cat. Now he is flat. Think I'll wear him outside as a hat.
'Bout time he did something useful-- an original poem by Smoke
(no cats were hurt in making this poem but one came damn close.)

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Dark Rikku
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Hey, Dick:

1) the Maginot line was a failure, but it was the most serious attempt any nation in the area made at preventing Germany from invading. Therefore, the existence of the Maginot line does disprove your original statement that the French didn't see anything coming or that they didn't do anything about it. That Nazi Germany chose another route was something no military strategist in the pre-war world had thought likely. The military didn't do the right choice, but they did, very much, try to do something (please note that some very high-ranking officers as well as civilans are responsible: Petain, the winner of Verdun and all-around bastard was the one who said building tanks and arming the nation was useless, and the executive followed).

2) you believe we are trying to prove that the US is a greedy imperialist nation. This is not at all the point . The question is not "does France owe anything to the US" (yes, it does) or "does the US have economic interests in Iraq?" (yes, it does, and so does any nation that uses oil or has had anything to do with Iraq in the past thirty years,in either way), but rather: "should France's criticism of the war in Iraq be attributed to cowardice and greed?", which seems to be the point (if any) of the piece of crap you like to call a poem. You were the one who dragged in a most callous way France's interest, to which I argued you didn't want to go there if you wanted to keep this debate intelligent. You challenged me to propose a valid rational explanation of why the US could also be seen as having economic interests and I rather think I did. But this was simply treating you and your country with as much conceited arrogance as you did mine. If you find it annoying that people will underline the nastier possible aspects of the US policy and attribute it to dirty motives, well, sorry dude, but that's a taste of your own "medecine". Feel any better? No, I didn't think so, because the only thing it shows is how offensive and biased your approach was.

3) the point we (I believe) are trying to make is that: a- Even though the US entered the war and gave a decisive help, it does not follow that the US liberated Europe all on its own, or that the European countries, occupied or otherwise, did not fight valiantly or contribute to the liberation.Therefore you do not have sufficient grounds to say French people are cowards, or that Europe is a bunch of incompetent countries; and although French people should be thankful, the US can in no way be considered the lone and most bloodied defender of the free world.
and b- The question of "owing" is irrelevant, as the very substantial and rational arguments put forward by France for refusing the war don't express a rejection of the US as a nation, but merely give a very strong criticism of how efficient the suggested measure (invading Iraq) would be for the desired goal (making the world a freer place and fighting terrorism). Asking a governement to think about what it is doing before it kills the boys, pleading it to reconsider if the program seems disastrous, and refusing to take part in a dubious and ill-prepared military adventure all seem to me better ways to express our concern for the sons and daughters of those who helped us be free again than saying "sure, you don't have proof, you don't know what you're doing, you probably won't make things better in the long run and most definitely will make things worse in the short term,but sure, hey, I'll chip in with my own sons and daughters just to get an awful lot of them slaughtered for no valid reason: who's counting?".

Wanting a country to enter a war is a serious matter. When this country tells you your "evidence" is really suspicious and meagre, and that your plan seems to suck, big time, then perhaps you should try to come up with better evidence and a better plan, instead of calling that country names. The US didn't enter WWII right away: they thought it was better strategy to wait. Do you think it should have sent troops to help with the ligne Maginot, even if it had had good reasons to believe the damn thing wouldn't help at all, just to show it cared about France? Surely not. Well, think of France as being in that position.

And incidentally, Europe paid for the Marshall plan by granting the US special tariffs and other privileges. I have read somewhere that the long-term consequences at least evened things out.

Finally, Dick keep your boring sphincter references for yourself. Once again, if you are being this vulgar and violent, don't expect any respect. I wouldn't expect this level of idiocy from an eight-year old.

Great post UELoyalist.

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Dark Rikku
Santorum happens
Hail bloody marys

Posts: 148 | From: Paris, France | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Essayons
The Red and the Green Stamps


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This is the shortest and hopefully a reasonably correct history of the liberation of Paris (August, 1944) that I am aware of: http://www.barking-moonbat.com/index.php/weblog/comments/daily_dose108/

The French 2nd Armored Division was reconstituted during 1943 in England and landed in Normandy during early August 1944. It had a magnificent history of battle during the North Africa campaign – even garnering Field Marshall Montgomery’s praise and givin Montgomery’s distain of anything not British, they must have been magnificent.

Regarding the Canadians and the conquest of Rome, yes they were a very significant factor (I believe it was the 1st Canadian Infantry Division ((5th Canadian Armored?)) attached to the Brits). Did they enter Rome first and just sit there until the other Allies arrived? I did a very quick search and could not corroborate this ascertation. Since they were attached to the Brits, I would gather that they were waiting for the Brits to arrive, should they have been waiting for anyone.

Regarding the inflammatory comment that Canada did not participate in the VN War but “possibly” formed a US “Foreign Legion” as 30,000 Canadians volunteered for service in the US military during the Vietnam War – get a non-liberal grip on reality. They VOLUNTEERED to serve with the US military. They were not segregated into a Canadian volunteer super division; they were integrated into our armed forces. During the Vietnam War, the US had 2,300,000 troops serving in Vietnam over a 7 year period – in country – and 9,000,000 in uniform. The Canadians were a “factor” which all US servicemen appreciate.

The Canadians were a factor from D-Day on as were the French. Being a “factor” is in no way equivalent to leading the charge. The Canadians landed 14,000 troops on Juno beach and had over 100 ships in support. They landed on sandy shores with no cliffs. Check out Omaha beach. Do Canadians believe they would have achivieved their objective on D-Day had they been assigned to Omaha beach?

Whether you believe it or not, the D-Day beach assignments were delegated by the capability of the units to achieve the objectives. Omaha beach was considered the toughest beach to assault and the US took it on.

As a further note, the Normandy invasion was at best questionable regarding the success of the invasion. Thus, in the US sector, “green” troops (not battle hardened veterans) made the D-Day landings. The US troops were cannon fodder should the invasion fail. Thankfully, it did not fail.

And lastly, whoever the idiot is who dismisses Gordon Sinclair’s 1973 broadcast as “irrelevant” for today and also during the Vietnam War in 1973 – make some actual hard observations regarding his post. I

Let’s see. Hurricane Katrina is zeroing in on New Orleans, LA today and it would appear that this hurricane will do horrendous damage. Should that be the case, will any country outside the USA offer support? I doubt it. We’ll see but I am not going to hold my breath for support. Hey, don’t worry, we can handle the problem ourselves but it would sure make us feel better should anyone step up and support us. Nah, ain’t going to happen.

Gordon Sinclair was correct over 30 years ago. We give and the world condemns us as “imperialists.”

Ah, and Whinny de Poo. Hey Peter H. get off the whiner issue. You may have spent 25 years with the Navy but you will only get my respect should you have been with the SEALs or on the PBRs. I worked with both along with building FSBs for the Green Berets. Boots on the ground and brown water warriors (Mekong Delta Navy – aka Mobile Riverine Force) are my heroes. I like guys who have been in combat.

Should you prove your combat experience, I will honor you but please beware that I have contacts that, within a day, will expose a combat fraud. I have done combat fraud exposures in the past.

Regards,
Dick

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Unusual Elfin Lights
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Essayons,

Are you now asserting that it is only US ground forces that deserve respect?

Posts: 2064 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Essayons
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Rikku:

It is late and I need to get some sleep. Your postings are for the most part thought provoking and I appreciate your input.

I appreciate discourse but abhor ad hominum statements. For the most part you have avoided this discourse but not entirely.

You are not my enemy. You are a voice of dissonance to my opinions. The others are echoes of liberalism.

I appreciate your opinions as they have been well thought out.

May we continue to disagree is the essence of freedom. You enjoy that freedom as do I.

Whether it is the US or France or Brittan or Australia (or many other nations) thankfully we are, thankfully, free to voice our opinions.

We will never agree that the war in Iraq was justified. I never believed it was driven by WMD or oil. Long before the Iraq war I believed it had to happen because the stability of the middle-east was the issue.

You will be vehemently oppose to my position. So be it.

I await your response.

Regards,
Dick

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smoke
Corn on the Cobweb


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quote:
Originally posted by Essayons:
Regarding the Canadians and the conquest of Rome, yes they were a very significant factor (I believe it was the 1st Canadian Infantry Division ((5th Canadian Armored?)) attached to the Brits). Did they enter Rome first and just sit there until the other Allies arrived? I did a very quick search and could not corroborate this ascertation. Since they were attached to the Brits, I would gather that they were waiting for the Brits to arrive, should they have been waiting for anyone.

They were on the road to Rome after the battle of Monte Cassino and were ordered to halt so that the Us could enter first.

Regarding the inflammatory comment that Canada did not participate in the VN War but “possibly” formed a US “Foreign Legion” as 30,000 Canadians volunteered for service in the US military during the Vietnam War – get a non-liberal grip on reality. They VOLUNTEERED to serve with the US military. They were not segregated into a Canadian volunteer super division; they were integrated into our armed forces. During the Vietnam War, the US had 2,300,000 troops serving in Vietnam over a 7 year period – in country – and 9,000,000 in uniform. The Canadians were a “factor” which all US servicemen appreciate.

You asserted that Canada sent 30,000 troops to Vietnam as if we were a willing participant in that war. Much different than people joining a foriegn military venture as individuals. The comment of it being a foreign legion was sarcasm because of your earlier remark about the French Foreign Legion.. my apologies I should have relaized that would be above your head [/B]

The Canadians were a factor from D-Day on as were the French. Being a “factor” is in no way equivalent to leading the charge. The Canadians landed 14,000 troops on Juno beach and had over 100 ships in support. They landed on sandy shores with no cliffs. Check out Omaha beach. Do Canadians believe they would have achivieved their objective on D-Day had they been assigned to Omaha beach?

Whether you believe it or not, the D-Day beach assignments were delegated by the capability of the units to achieve the objectives. Omaha beach was considered the toughest beach to assault and the US took it on.

As a further note, the Normandy invasion was at best questionable regarding the success of the invasion. Thus, in the US sector, “green” troops (not battle hardened veterans) made the D-Day landings. The US troops were cannon fodder should the invasion fail. Thankfully, it did not fail.
[ B]As far as cannon fodder ever heard of Dieppe ? A factor after D-day? you do relize the italian campaign was first don't you? are you saying they weren't a factor there?
The US was the biggest wealthiest best armed of the allies damn right they should take on the biggest assignment. Toughest thats debatable. Check out ww2 casualties as a percentage of military personnel before you whine about how your country sacrificed more than any other


And lastly, whoever the idiot is who dismisses Gordon Sinclair’s 1973 broadcast as “irrelevant” for today and also during the Vietnam War in 1973 – make some actual hard observations regarding his post.

Well that Idiot would be me Dick. And you know what, Dick ,saying I'm an idiot because I pointed out the broadcast was about the US coming to other countries aid during disasters and not about the war then posting about how no one will be coming to the US's aid for Katrina and citing Sinclair's broadcast just proves my point. I heard the original broadcast and have heard it many times since. Did you think you had found something new? [/ B]

Let’s see. Hurricane Katrina is zeroing in on New Orleans, LA today and it would appear that this hurricane will do horrendous damage. Should that be the case, will any country outside the USA offer support? I doubt it. We’ll see but I am not going to hold my breath for support. Hey, don’t worry, we can handle the problem ourselves but it would sure make us feel better should anyone step up and support us. Nah, ain’t going to happen.

Gordon Sinclair was correct over 30 years ago. We give and the world condemns us as “imperialists.”

[ B]And yet you ignore that we took in all your planes on 911 helped with the recovery of ground zero and send (or offer) supplies and red cross support to pretty much every natural disaster the US has. You might want to check these things before you whine about the rest of the world being mean.



Ah, and Whinny de Poo. Hey Peter H. get off the whiner issue. You may have spent 25 years with the Navy but you will only get my respect should you have been with the SEALs or on the PBRs. I worked with both along with building FSBs for the Green Berets. Boots on the ground and brown water warriors (Mekong Delta Navy – aka Mobile Riverine Force) are my heroes. I like guys who have been in combat.

Should you prove your combat experience, I will honor you but please beware that I have contacts that, within a day, will expose a combat fraud. I have done combat fraud exposures in the past.

Regards,
Dick



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I sat on the cat. Now he is flat. Think I'll wear him outside as a hat.
'Bout time he did something useful-- an original poem by Smoke
(no cats were hurt in making this poem but one came damn close.)

Posts: 374 | From: the right side of the Detroit River Ontario | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dark Rikku
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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I appreciate your praise, Essayons, and I am aware that my posts aren't always perfect (no one's are). So I'm not a liar and a bogus researcher, then?

But I beg to differ: I am a sniveling liberal, and I don't think most of the people who have expressed their opposition to the war on this thread have done so in a disrespectful (certainly less so than many of your posts) or incoherent way. I believe you should look behind the irony and grasp the essence of the arguments.

I believe the criticisms expressed both on the "poem" and the war in this thread are largely relevant, and that you can hardly ask people to be calm and centered when you call people names and threaten them verbally. The poem people are supposed to be discussing on this thread propagates very insulting and unfair clichés on the french, and proposes a vision of international dynamics and that makes me cringe.

The very first thing you should do when a country isn't in agreement with yours is to consider its reasons to do so, not to immediately blame its opposition on a lesser value and shifty-eyed nature-- and please don't say "but they're calling us imperialistic" in lieu of refutation of these arguments, as you are only mirroring the most rabid of those you are trying to challenge, and not at all demonstrating any kind of rationality and consequence.

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Dark Rikku
Santorum happens
Hail bloody marys

Posts: 148 | From: Paris, France | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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