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Author Topic: A Poem For France
Jaime Vargas Sanchez
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Kilrati:
I thought it was a rather good poem.

I'm not surprised.

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Kilrati:
For a Frenchman to oppose the liberation of Iraq, ( unless it is a anti-freedom, anti-free press Frenchman who refuses to vote in French elections on principle), is hypocrisy.

Ah, but if you're keeping track of the timeline, you might remember that the primary stated goal was not the liberation of Iraq, but the protection of the rest of the world from a madman with his finger on the button of WMDs. Not everyone believed that he had WMDs. Those who did not believe now appear to have been right. Wouldn't the real hypocrisy have been to go to war while not really believing in the cassus belli? Or would it be to change your mind and start hurriedly giving other reasons for the war once you were found to have been wrong?

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Kilrati
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Jaime Vargas Sanchez:
quote:
Originally posted by Kilrati:
I thought it was a rather good poem.

I'm not surprised.
LOL

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kilrati:
For a Frenchman to oppose the liberation of Iraq, ( unless it is a anti-freedom, anti-free press Frenchman who refuses to vote in French elections on principle), is hypocrisy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah, but if you're keeping track of the timeline, you might remember that the primary stated goal was not the liberation of Iraq, but the protection of the rest of the world from a madman with his finger on the button of WMDs. Not everyone believed that he had WMDs. Those who did not believe now appear to have been right. Wouldn't the real hypocrisy have been to go to war while not really believing in the cassus belli? Or would it be to change your mind and start hurriedly giving other reasons for the war once you were found to have been wrong?

The "democracy domino" was always given as a reason for war by some gov'nt officials and neo-con. think thank. Further, I was argued that these revolutions were necessary to win the war on terror. Personally, I always felt this was the main reason for the war and a just reason at that.

As for WMD, the main argument was not that Iraq had them, but that it could have them, which I always thought was bloody common sense sine the technology is 60 years old and was redeveloped independently by such high-tech superpowers as Pakistan and India. *


For some reason, they downplayed the democracy domino justification for the war and kept on hammering on the WMD reason till (some) people thought it was the only reason for war given. Maybe they were wrong to so, but in an 800 pages history of the second Iraqi war written 50years from now, weather or not Iraq really had nuclear weapons will be a footnote to page 455.

*This considers only nuclear weapons, not chemical and bacteriological one, which are also, by definitions WMD and are even more easily made.

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Noemi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Kilrati:
The Germans have no particular reason to be grateful for anything we did 50 years ago.

So, by extension, does this means that in the future you aren't going to expect the Iraqi people to be grateful?

Noemi

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Ghost on Toast
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I'm sorry but I just cannot understand the extreme arrogance of the viewpoint that just because the USA helped France 60 years ago, that they should now send their men into a war started by the Americans.

That's a ridiculous and unworkable point of view. What, is someone keeping a 'IOU a favour' score up at the UN?

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Don Enrico
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Kilrati:
The Germans have no particular reason to be grateful for anything we did 50 years ago. The French, on the other hand, vote because we installed a democracy there in ‘45.

Huh? [Confused]

Do I understand correctly that "the Germans" didn't want to be liberated from Nazi rule? All of them? So the german resistance (it existed!) and all the german Jews (yes, they were Germans, despite what the Nazis said!), Trade-Unionists, Communists, Christians, Jehovas Witnesses, Social Demokrats, you-name-it, suffering in concentration camps and awaiting the allied forces desperatly are just UL?
And, following your point further on, the Germans of today, other than the French, are still only reluctantly taking part in free elections, reading free press and using the benefits of free speech, because all that has been forced on them by the allied oppressors?

Thank you for enlightening me! Know I finally understand why a majority of Germans opposes the Iraq war! Just take a look at them, they're obviously all Nazis! Of course they don't want that the US do to Iraq what they did to Germany 60 years ago!

[flame]

Cooling down...

I'm ready to take any blame for building a straw man, but this really did make me angry!

A whole lot of the Germans in 1945 were thankfull to be liberated, and the overwhelming majority of todays Germans is thankfull that someone put an end to Nazi rule!

As pointed out before, that doesn't mean that we have to support any war that any of the former allies starts today under the flag of "freedom". Or would you think that Germany should have supported the liberation of Afghanistan by Sowjet forces in the 1980's?

Don Enrico

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My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear

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Kilrati
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Of course there was German resistance. My point was that the French have things like free press and elections because of an American intervention, similar to the one Bush is attempting in the mid-east. This makes French opposition to the war very hypocritical, at least for a Frenchman who enjoys the benefits of the American liberation (democracy, free press, human rights etc.). This is not the same as saying France owes to the us to go war for every times the US declares a war. The fact that this is another war of liberation matter a lot.

Are Germans also hypocrites for opposing the war? On some level yes. But a German war opponent can honestly say that most Germans in 45 wanted nothing with the US, fought the US, and say that the US should have attacked his country. The German war opponent can long for the 3rd reich, stolen from his people by filthy american democracy peddlers. If he does so, and only if he does so, he can oppose the war in Iraq in a rational sensible way.


Kilrati

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Bug Muldoon
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
. My point was that the French have things like free press and elections because of an American intervention, similar to the one Bush is attempting in the mid-east.
That comparison is wrong on so many levels, it's not even funny anymore. France was a sovereign nation, attacked and occupied by a foreign force, the allies assisted them in regaining their territory.

Iraq was a sovereign nation, attacked and occupied by a foreign force for vague reasons.

quote:
This is not the same as saying France owes to the us to go war for every times the US declares a war. The fact that this is another war of liberation matter a lot.
"War of liberation" is hardly a defendable statement.

quote:
Are Germans also hypocrites for opposing the war? On some level yes.
Define "Germans". All of them ? Even the ones who are two generations removed from WWII ? Even the ones who fought on the Nazi side out of nationalism and a sincere belief they were changing the world for the better ?

quote:
The German war opponent can long for the 3rd reich, stolen from his people by filthy american democracy peddlers. If he does so, and only if he does so, he can oppose the war in Iraq in a rational sensible way.

If I were German, I'd be hideously offended by this tripe, and demand an immediate apology.

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All along the untrodden paths of the future, I can see the footprints of an unseen hand.

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Kilrati
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
quote:


Define "Germans". All of them ? Even the ones who are two generations removed from WWII ? Even the ones who fought on the Nazi side out of nationalism and a sincere belief they were changing the world for the better ?

My point is, if the reason your country has election, a free press and democracy is a anmerican invasion, you can't oppose a similar american invasion, unless you reject the fruits of the one you benefitted from.

quote:
If I were German, I'd be hideously offended by this tripe, and demand an immediate apology.
Well boo-hoo. Think I'm not offended that my country is accused of:
-Invading to countries for oil
-Using mustard gas on civilians
-Intentionnaly trying to kill an Italian journalist and a negociator
-Perpetrating a genocide in Alfganstan by cutting the food supply lines
-being the cheif sponsor of terorism (Chomsky)
-Killing the Iraqis if we liberate them, staving them if we impose sanctions, and supporting Saddam otherwise
-Bush compared to Hitler by people who admire Ill, Castro, Ho Chi Min ...

If you can't stand being called a hypocrite, well &?%*&?


If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged.
Noam Chomsky

Kilrati

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Don Enrico
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilrati:
Are Germans also hypocrites for opposing the war? On some level yes. But a German war opponent can honestly say that most Germans in 45 wanted nothing with the US, fought the US, and say that the US should have attacked his country. The German war opponent can long for the 3rd reich, stolen from his people by filthy american democracy peddlers. If he does so, and only if he does so, he can oppose the war in Iraq in a rational sensible way.

So I've got three choiches:
  • Being rational and sensible and supporting the war in Iraq,
  • being a NFBSKing nazi a**hole and oppose the war in Iraq in a rational and sensible way, or
  • oppose the war in Iraq out of different reasons and skip being rational and sensible.
Well, I'll go for number 3, thank you.

quote:
Originally posted by Kilrati:
My point is, if the reason your country has election, a free press and democracy is a anmerican invasion, you can't oppose a similar american invasion, unless you reject the fruits of the one you benefitted from.

And Bug (like so many others before) just pointed out that it may not be a "similar american invasion". Is every war that one of the former WWII allies claimes to be a "liberation war" by definition similar to liberating Europe (including Germany) from Nazi terror? And if so, why did the US (as well as France, Germany, and a lot of other countries) oppose the military liberation of Afghanistan by the Sowjet Union?

quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
If I were German, I'd be hideously offended by this tripe, and demand an immediate apology.

Thank you, Bug, but I tend to choose the people I let myself get offended by wisely. [Smile]

Don Enrico

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The Fourth Man
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Kilrati:
My point is, if the reason your country has election, a free press and democracy is a anmerican invasion, you can't oppose a similar american invasion, unless you reject the fruits of the one you benefitted from.

In other words: since American soldiers fought for our freedom of opinion and speech 60 years ago, how dare we have and voice a different opinion from the current President of the USA?

I appreciate the irony of someone calling the French hypocrites, then telling them to shut up for the sake of freedom of speech.

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Archangel
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilrati:
Well boo-hoo. Think I'm not offended that my country is accused of:
-Invading to countries for oil
-Using mustard gas on civilians
-Intentionnaly trying to kill an Italian journalist and a negociator
-Perpetrating a genocide in Alfganstan by cutting the food supply lines
-being the cheif sponsor of terorism (Chomsky)
-Killing the Iraqis if we liberate them, staving them if we impose sanctions, and supporting Saddam otherwise
-Bush compared to Hitler by people who admire Ill, Castro, Ho Chi Min ...

Kilrati

You don't like the comparisons? You should have thought of that when the opportunity to oppose the war was still there.
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Kilrati
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
I appreciate the irony of someone calling the French hypocrites, then telling them to shut up for the sake of freedom of speech.
I'm not asking the French to shut up for the sake of freedom, I'm asking the French to fight for the sake of freedom.
Asking the French to shut up is, of course, futile.

Kilrati

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Oualawouzou
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I'm not asking the French to shut up for the sake of freedom, I'm asking the French to fight for the sake of freedom.
Isn't that similar to the "you're racist" argument?

Guy A: "I think blabla."
Guy B: "I don't think blabla."
Guy A: "You're racist!"
Guy B: "The heck?"
Guy A wins.

Guy A: "Go to war!"
Guy B: "I won't go to war."
Guy A: "It's a freedom war, fool!"
Guy B: "The heck?"
Guy A wins.

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Kilrati:
I'm not asking the French to shut up for the sake of freedom, I'm asking the French to fight for the sake of freedom.

Does not "freedom" include the freedom to choose not to fight?

Four "draft the Quakers!" Kitties

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by The Fourth Man:
I appreciate the irony of someone calling the French hypocrites, then telling them to shut up for the sake of freedom of speech.

I appreciate the irony of the French being upset at being told to shut up, when that's what they told Eastern Europe to do.

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
Does not "freedom" include the freedom to choose not to fight?

Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection by that state.

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
Does not "freedom" include the freedom to choose not to fight?

Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection by that state.
Wow.

"Support" and "defend" are not the same thing. They can also be defined or described in very different ways by different people. No one has yet been able to explain to me how preemptively going halfway across the planet to conquer Iraq is defending my state.

I refuse to allow my 4-year-old daughter to go fight in Iraq -- will you remove the protection of the state from her, or from me? My 85-year-old grandmother is strongly against the current war; would you like to reclaim her Social Security? If she supported other wars but just not this one, does that mitigate at all?

Four Kitties

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Heavy B
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
Does not "freedom" include the freedom to choose not to fight?

Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection by that state.
Is that written somewhere in our Constitution, Bill of Rights or any other document or is that your opinion?

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
Does not "freedom" include the freedom to choose not to fight?

Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection by that state.
Are you seriously going to trot out that old argument that somehow Iraq was a real and imminent threat to the US?

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
Does not "freedom" include the freedom to choose not to fight?

Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection by that state.
Bollocks.

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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See how they howl. Throwing poop is next.

Fourkitties: I take it noone has ASKED your daughter or grandmother to go to Iraq.

You DO understand that one has to be asked to do something before one can refuse to do it?

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
See how they howl. Throwing poop is next.

Fourkitties: I take it noone has ASKED your daughter or grandmother to go to Iraq.

You DO understand that one has to be asked to do something before one can refuse to do it?

Let me rephrase.
quote:
Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection by that state.
My grandmother refuses to support or defend our state's participation in the war in Iraq. That same state currently supports her financially through Social Security and Medicare. Should her benefits be revoked?

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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The Fourth Man
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
I appreciate the irony of the French being upset at being told to shut up, when that's what they told Eastern Europe to do.

That's what Chirac told Eastern Europe to do. And he was being a moron. I'm not pretending all Americans choke on pretzels, thankyouverymuch.

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If you keep trying, you'll eventually succeed. Therefore, the more you fail, the higher your chances of success.
-- Jacques Rouxel, 1931-2004 RIP :(

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
My grandmother refuses to support or defend our state's participation in the war in Iraq.

Your grandmother has stopped paying taxes?

No, your example is meaningless because it assumed definitions to my words which I have not imparted to them.

It's like asking me if I'm asking you to put people on leashes if I say you should lead them.

Sorry, wrong 'lead.'

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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Okay, point taken. Darnit, this is no fun if you don't take the bait! [Wink]

May I ask you, then, to provide an example (hypothetical or not) of a such a person from whom the state's protection should be withdrawn?

Four Kitties

ETA: Whoopsie! Wrong smilie.

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Well, the line I was quoting goes on to mention anarchists (at least, the type who will not support a state) and pacifists (at least, the type who will not defend a state).

So, the first example that would come to mind would be... Chris Rock.

"I ain’t fightin’! I wouldn’t give a fuck if I saw a Russian tank rollin’ down Flatbush Avenue." [lol]

The right to be protected when you call is concurrent and inseparable from the duty to protect if called.

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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So should we not protect the Quakers?

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Kilrati
The Red and the Green Stamps


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There is quite a difference between refusing to join a war, and opposing a war, a further difference between opposing a war, and smearing the reason for the war, yet a giant step from that to inventing stories of mustard gas and war crimes and finally, a giant leap from all of that to actively aid the enemy, through a oil for food scam, than resulted in the starvation and death of thousands.

Kilrati

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
So should we not protect the Quakers?

I wouldn't. Or at least, I wouldn't give them the same level of prioritization.

I liken it to a HMO not covering diseases caused by smoking.

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Anyway, here's Snopes to the rescue... In Battle of Mutual Hostility, U.S. Is Outmatched by France -a-chow

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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STF
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
Does not "freedom" include the freedom to choose not to fight?

Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection by that state.
Bollocks.
Why?

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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I think this is the first thread to actually survive being condemned to Petty Bickering...

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Four Kitties
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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
So should we not protect the Quakers?

I wouldn't. Or at least, I wouldn't give them the same level of prioritization.

I liken it to a HMO not covering diseases caused by smoking.

Hmm. Diseases when they are specifically caused by smoking, or any disease that could be caused by smoking, if you understand the distinction? For instance, I lost a friend to lung cancer last spring -- she didn't smoke, neither did her parents, her spouse, or anyone else (so it wasn't second-hand smoke that did her in). Would she be covered under your hypothetical plan? People can get emphysema, lung cancer, heart disease, etc. without being smokers.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
Diseases when they are specifically caused by smoking,

Yes.

More broadly, (too broadly, in fact, this would have to be specifically nailed down to prefent abuse) injury incurred as a result of doing something the detrimental effects of which you are clearly and specifically warned of beforehand.

This would include the commission of crimes, smoking, alcohol abuse, riding a motorcycle without a helmet, and a few other things.

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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