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Author Topic: Guns - can the topic be discussed rationally?
daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Does any one else see the perfect humor and answer in this getting moved to Petty Bickering, considering the thread title?

I'm in hysterics here! [lol] [lol] [lol]

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~tough as nails yet nice as pie~
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:

Megaira: I don't know if you actually lied,

Lying is not an accusation that should be made lightly - particularily on a written forum - much less just tossed about. So unless you, or Tag know without a shadow of a doubt that I lied, there is absolutely no excuse or reason to bring the word into the conversation.

quote:
but you did, more than once, generalize things that Tagurit said about *some* gun owners as if she had said the same things about *all* gun owners.
How often do I need to quote her original posts?

Her rants certianly did not start out directed at "some" people -they were very generalized. I tried to narrow this down right along with her as she narrowed it down, amending my statements to "people who have guns for self protection." So if you have a quote where I got this mixed up, Silas, post it and I'm more than happy to acknowledge and apologize for the mistake.

A mistake, however, does not constitute "lying about Tag." The suggestion that I'm lying about her indicates that I woke up one morning and set out to trash her reputation on the board at all costs, and to hell with the truth, I'll just make things up to make her look bad (oh but, hey, with my "humiliation games" apparantly I have an entire underlying motive for posting on the boards, so lying would not, of course, be out of my scope, I'm sure).

Are we really that out there that I actually *need* to point out this is bullshit?


I don't think there is anyone on this board that would take being called a *liar* casually, much less be expected to swallow some bs sarcastic snark as a valid response for being called on it.

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DesertRat
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Wow.

Judging by this topic's current location, I would have to venture that the answer to the question posed in the topic heading would be a definite. "NO."

[Big Grin]

--------------------
High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Actually, I still don't think so, DesertRat, because the conversation around Tag's and my squabble hasn't been that heated at all. The crux of the "blowout," from my side, is Tag wanting to call a spade a spade in reference to me, but failing to acknowledge - and backpedalling over -her behavior elsewhere. That, actually, has little to do with guns, and more to do with her pride. And hey, obviously I'm not without it, because I won't leave the issue alone, myself.

(BTW -on that note, I do owe Prussian an apology for telling him to get off the racism topic and back to guns when I've just gone a couple pages into derailment on the same thread. Quite the irony.)

So that bullshit -and the demise of this and that thread - frankly, rests soley on my head. Theoretically, had I not bothered to respond to Tag's first rants, a couple people might have gone at it with her, realized they were banging their heads on a wall, and given up. Myself, not so smart. [Wink]


Oh, and silas, page three of this thread:

quote:
And yes, you're right, I used a generalized statement in reference to your arguement, myself, in the OP by saying "tags attack on gun ownership." It wasn't a matter of missing your point, it was a matter of you making some very generalized statements and therefore, myself drawing a generalized conclusion.

And regarding myself. Yeap, I went overboard in my responses to you. I won't make apologies for the first post, because while it's bitchy, it's true, and on par with what you were dishing out to others. But the ones shortly following that were unecessary and uncalled for.

I'm working my way through the rest to see, if, indeed you are right and I made mistakes in the process. Whether or not you are, does not validate the claim that I lied.
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DesertRat
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I wasn't being serious, I was just being a smartass... sorry. I deserve a stern trouting.

"Nobody pay any attention to me... I'll just be moving along now." [Big Grin]

--------------------
High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Ok, so, Silas, moving through the rest of the thread, I don't address Tag again until page 7, where I basically called bullpucky on her "I only lambast people when" comment, and then listed out a bunch of assumptions that kept being reiterated throughout the thread to the point of being redudundant.

To which she responded I was making half truths and "out and out lies" and demanded a cite, and cites she got.

and oh, now this edit:

quote:
[strike that. Not lies. Bullshit, stories, characterizations of how I would or would not react to her BS, but never lies],"
heh, so now it was my first response to you that you were busy stewing over.

Can you call a hypothetical prediction a lie? I mean, part of it had already happened, so it's not a lie, and the rest hadn't happened yet, so, that's not a lie either. A prediction yes, a bad one, maybe (maybe not).

And *sure,* you had great reason to be mad. Boy, I wrote a snarky, bitchy post, then I followed it up with a couple jabs which took it quite overboard.

However, you have yet to acknowledge that you went way over the line yourself, unprovoked, on someone who didn't deserve it.

YOU, had it coming. I have it coming. What did Daisy do? She related a slightly embarassing story with acknowledgement that she wasn't proud of herself for what she said. But, you've been hanging on to her percieved "satisfaction" for pages now (right up to page 8) to justify yourself instead of just saying "yeah, you're right, I WAS a bitch, and I owe you an apology."

If calling you out on that and the other inconsistancies in your arguement you're hanging on to makes me a liar, then fine.


It is pretty pathetic, btw, that you'd make that claim, then backpedal (poorly) instead of tackling it head on...especially enough so that I had to go hunting down the area where you perceived I "lied." How lame is that, when I have to set out to prove myself the liar and wrong? [Roll Eyes]

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by DesertRat2:
I wasn't being serious, I was just being a smartass... sorry. I deserve a stern trouting.

"Nobody pay any attention to me... I'll just be moving along now." [Big Grin]

I know...sorry, I just felt I should point out that the issue itself wasn't too bad, considering. I'll trout myself. [fish]
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abby 68
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Blue:
quote:
Just a general question for any of the Police Officers on the board, would you recommend using a Air Taser for home defense?
My personal opinion is if you want to use a taser then use this one. I would say this is a viable option for those who want to protect without using lethal force, but realize that these arn't fool proof. Two people on my squad are on the injured list right now because the taser failed....twice. The person was hit and didn't really care. When we use them, especially against someone with a weapon, we don't deploy it unless there is someone with a lethal force option ready. Basically somebody has a gun drawn at the time this is being deployed just in case.

My number one piece of advise when you determine what you will use is to pick something you are comfortable with and practice with it a lot. IF you are not comfortable with a gun then please dont own one with protection in mind. IF you don't practice then please dont plan on using it. WHatever you use you should be highly proficent with it and know it inside and out before placing it in your home protection system. Be it a gun, taser, knife, bat, or escape plan.

Thanks for the advice darkblue [Smile]
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mnotr2
Jingle Bell Hock


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Can't resist... must post... must throw my $.02 in...

I love Snopes because (with obvious exceptions) posts are rational and well thought-out. People don't generally hold forth on issues they know nothing about. And when they do, it's usually quite amusing.

Gun ownership: I'd like to point out some important aspects of the 2nd amendment.

- Gun ownership is a right, not an obligation.
If you don't want a gun in your house, don't buy one; but don't try to take mine away either.
- As with the first amendment, there are limits.
Though the Bill of Rights states that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech and the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed, I don't think our founding fathers intended for there to be no contols on either right. It falls to us to decide (through our elected officials) what controls are needed. I can't parade around nude in public, and I have to wait five days when purchasing a firearm for the same reasons. Those controls are instituted for the public good (in the first case, trust me, you don't want me wandering around in the buff).
First amendment rights abused can be just as dangerous as second amendment rights, only in less direct and dramatic ways. To borrow a quote, though I disagree with what you say, I'll defend to the death your right to say it, and even if I disagree with your right to keep and bear arms, the same should hold true.

Mnot - the word "Responsible" is only implied in the Bill of Rights -r2

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Infinite goodness is creating a being you know, in advance, is going to complain.
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Casey, making hot chocolate
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Darkblue, are you me? That's what I usually say! [Wink]

It doesn't matter if you have a S&W Model 29- the Dirty Harry .44 Magnum- or a little Marlin .22, if you can't hit what you are aiming at, it's a waste. If you own one, get some instruction into its use.

--------------------
"To be or not to be! That is the question! Now, will you answer, dare, double dare, or take the Physical Challenge?" --Mark Summers as Hamlet
Countdown: 177 days and counting... or less. My blog. 14 keyboards owed.

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Island Manta
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Manta, since I posted in reference to the FIM thread, myself, I believe I'm aware of its existence and content. You're right that we don't post in a bubble. None of us.
quote:
Agreeing to disagree and letting the matter rest seems to be the best course of action for all concerned.
[lol] Now she tells us!
I figured you did, but the lack of actual quotes might have confused those folks that didn't actually read the thread. I was wondering what all the hubbub was about - and have to admit that I didn't search the thread out - it wasn't that important to refute anything within it - until I actually read it & understood where other posters (those who referred to it) were coming from.

As far as the "agreeing to disagree" - t'wasn't the first time [Big Grin]

quote:
Originally posted by megaira:
Sorry Manta...



No worries - I expected this one to rage on, and have been proven right [Big Grin]

-k 'bedtime for me...I get to dive for FUN tomorrow!'

--------------------
"You never know when you will be attacked by a wild tortilla" - José Zavala
"Happiness isn't happiness without a violin playing goat"
Be good and you will be lonesome

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Prussian Blue
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by megaira:
BTW -on that note, I do owe Prussian an apology for telling him to get off the racism topic and back to guns when I've just gone a couple pages into derailment on the same thread. Quite the irony.

No worries. I find the diversions in these threads the most interesting part sometimes, tho they can be frustrating.
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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Casey, sliding through the snow:
Darkblue, are you me? That's what I usually say! [Wink]

It doesn't matter if you have a S&W Model 29- the Dirty Harry .44 Magnum- or a little Marlin .22, if you can't hit what you are aiming at, it's a waste. If you own one, get some instruction into its use.

I third the advice to get training on any gun one owns. As for aiming, a shotgun is always a good choice if you aren't so keen eyed.

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by ali_marea:
quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Pardon me? You think we're naive for feeling safe in our homes? What do you feel we should be feeling in our homes? You live in D.C. How do you feel in your home?

Right, you did flat out say it. I was trying not to sound accusatory. [Smile]

Ack, no not for feeling safe in your own homes. I should have probably worded that better. Thought about it. Didn't do anything about it. My fault.

Ok, what I mean is I think it's naive to think that, in the suburbs of Detroit, you are safe just because you don't know violent people. (I might not even be wording this right. I guess I just mean to say it's not all rosy, regardless of where you live. It's a little worse if you live close to big cities. Crimes are frequently random. You have no control over that. To think you do just because you don't hang out with "bad people" is, IMO, naive.)

As far as how safe I feel? I dunno. I feel about as safe as anybody else who lives in the city. I don't live in a high crime neighborhood, but there are crimes that happen here. I think my chances are just about the same as everyone else for getting robbed or attacked.

ETA: I mean I feel my chances are about the same as everyone else who lives in my area. Watching the news, it seems there's almost more violence in the 'burbs. In the boonies I'm not seeing much of a violence problem. So I guess it's still fairly safe to live in cow-country *grin*

Well, I had expressed my take on random violence in the FIM thread. [Smile]
quote:
Most violent crimes are committed against people by people they know. I prefer not to hang around with people that are violent or unlawful in nature. That ups my odds right off the bat. Random acts of violence are like playing the lottery. Odds are against it. You think I'm going to live my life in fear on the offchance that I'll win the lottery?
So, it's not as if I'm operating unaware of the outside world. I think the risk to myself not significant. I take reasonable precautions such as locking my doors, etc., just like anyone else.

--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
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AAMAH

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
So, it's not as if I'm operating unaware of the outside world. I think the risk to myself not significant. I take reasonable precautions such as locking my doors, etc., just like anyone else.
that's what they all say. At least the ones that survive.

--------------------
~tough as nails yet nice as pie~
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
daisys does Myspace

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Blue:
quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Anyone else noticing a pattern here? Are our shooters just extraordinarily good, or what is it? What if the burglar is an excellent shot?

Actually, yes, I am a very good shot, and I can say this without bragging. I have been practicing regularly for a quarter-century, under the tutelage of two veterans. I have practiced with stationary and moving targets. If I desired a career in law enforcement, I suspect that passing marksmanship requirements would not be a substantial hurdle (although other things would).

The odds of a burglar having my level of skill are not significant.

I believe you are a good shot, First. What strikes me as a bit peculiar, though, is that I've heard so many times, in this thread and the FIM thread, people say that if they come across an *intruder in their home, the intruder is dead, or they will kill them. It seems that everyone posting in these threads is sure of their marksmanship.

Again, having read you over the years, I feel relatively sure that you are a good shot. But, can everyone be as good?

*intruder in this instance stands for the threat that would have someone fire on them. I left out the criteria (armed, etc.) for clarity.

--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
---
AAMAH

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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responsible gun owners train and are sure. I'm not saying everyone is responsible, but the vast majority of legal gun owners are trained and responsible.

There will always be idiots, but it's not fair to judge a group by a few irresponsible morons.

--------------------
~tough as nails yet nice as pie~
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
daisys does Myspace

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Moosedog
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Island Manta:


Where I live now, there is a constant threat of voilence on my person.

Then why stay there? There are places on the planet where that is not so.
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Gale
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Not much call for diving instructors in Racine or Omaha would be my guess.
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Moosedog
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quote:
Originally posted by Gayle:
Not much call for diving instructors in Racine or Omaha would be my guess.

You mean Racine, WI? Lots of diving in Lake Michigan.

If the only way I could continue to practice my profession, though, were to be living in a place where I was under constant imanent threat of deadly violence against my person, I'd find another profession.

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Mama Duck
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
What strikes me as a bit peculiar, though, is that I've heard so many times, in this thread and the FIM thread, people say that if they come across an *intruder in their home, the intruder is dead, or they will kill them. It seems that everyone posting in these threads is sure of their marksmanship.

Wouldn't reasonable marksmanship be a sign of a responsible gun owner? You have a rather dangerous tool in your possession. It would behoove you to learn how to use it well and properly. Thus the odds of a responsible gun owner missing an intruder who will in all likelihood be no more than 20 feet away from him/her are rather small.

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There is no interpersonal problem so big that it can't be solved with a suitably large amount of high explosives. ~ Bufungla

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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She loves where she lives, Moosedog. I suppose given the emotional payoff she gets from living where she is and doing what she does, the risks are acceptable to her and she does what she sees fit to manage them.

I guess it's lucky for you both that you're different people. [Smile]

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Mama Duck:
quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
What strikes me as a bit peculiar, though, is that I've heard so many times, in this thread and the FIM thread, people say that if they come across an *intruder in their home, the intruder is dead, or they will kill them. It seems that everyone posting in these threads is sure of their marksmanship.

Wouldn't reasonable marksmanship be a sign of a responsible gun owner? You have a rather dangerous tool in your possession. It would behoove you to learn how to use it well and properly. Thus the odds of a responsible gun owner missing an intruder who will in all likelihood be no more than 20 feet away from him/her are rather small.
I blame this inability to understand the difficulty (or lack thereof) in hitting a target at close range in an enclosed space on our lousy mass-media.

The burglar is not Remo Williams or Barry Allen or Neo. He is not going to dodge bullets. At least, not a half-dozen in quick succession.

Furthermore, most REAL gun owners are not going to stick the gun wayyy out in front of them, hold it with two fingers on each hand, and shake uncontrollably until the burglar walks up and takes it away from them.

And most homeowners who DO shoot an intruder are probably going to puke their guts out over it (at the very least, and need significant mental health counseling) at some point afterwards. If I ever shoot someone, I expect to.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Blue:
And most homeowners who DO shoot an intruder are probably going to puke their guts out over it (at the very least, and need significant mental health counseling) at some point afterwards. If I ever shoot someone, I expect to.

That's a good point; TV has grotesquely sanitized gunshot wounds. The facts are a hell of a lot messier. To quote Macbeth, "Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him?" And it ain't all just blood...

re accuracy, I would suspect that most gun owners consider themselves good shots in the same way that most car owners consider themselves good drivers: at least part of it is an incorrect self-assessment.

I do really like the idea someone (I'm sorry, I forget who!) suggested: play it out once in a while. Have a live-action role-playing-game with squirt guns. Find out exactly how long it takes to get yourself armed and shoot; find out exactly how bad your aim is when a big scary guy (even if he's only your brother-in-law pretending to be a burglar) is waving a (rubber) knife at you.

Simply shooting at targets at a range is good...but playing at combat could be better.

(I've learned a lot about people -- and myself! -- from Lazer Tag combat!)

Silas

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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That was me, I was thinking it might actually be a fun just for...fun. They have those nerf dart guns...
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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by megaira:
That was me, I was thinking it might actually be a fun just for...fun. They have those nerf dart guns...

Aye! It was a darn good idea. Either for education, training, or just for fun!

Nerf is good, although I really love those old spring-loaded suction-cup tipped guys. Lazer Tag is okay, but has some bad problems with realism.

(Engendering the slogan, "Real men shoot matter!")

Silas

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megaira
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I agree, Laser Tag wouldn't cut it for me, but Paintball wouldn't be such a good idea in the house.
[Smile]

I thought of squirt guns first, but then realized that a. we have leather furniture and b. the kitchen linoleum is lethal when I spill water on it...bad idea.

quote:
(Engendering the slogan, "Real men shoot matter!")
We women just shoot off our mouths. [fish]


I just realized you have 10,000 posts.

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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We have three sets of toy guns in out house shooting nerf darts, foam discs and ping pong balls. And bb guns for use outside (but not shooting one another).

Beach...Paint ball is much more relistic, even painful when shot...Life!

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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Island Manta
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Moosedog, megaira is correct. I love living here. It's not that I expect to have someone attack me the minute I walk out of my house - I don't. I am, however, vigilant when I go out at night, or drive through certain areas of the island (day or night). It's not ALL that way. The good WAY outweighs the bad...it's just less safe here than where I used to live.

Friends of mine have been mugged (and one was beaten) others have been robbed....Hell, I have been robbed (my own stooopid mistake for falling asleep on the beach) - but I survived. I will survive. And if you lived with views like this, and living your dream job - you'd probably put up with a LOT [Wink]

-k 'took me 14 years to get here'

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"You never know when you will be attacked by a wild tortilla" - José Zavala
"Happiness isn't happiness without a violin playing goat"
Be good and you will be lonesome

Posts: 3569 | From: USVI | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:

I do really like the idea someone (I'm sorry, I forget who!) suggested: play it out once in a while. Have a live-action role-playing-game with squirt guns. Find out exactly how long it takes to get yourself armed and shoot; find out exactly how bad your aim is when a big scary guy (even if he's only your brother-in-law pretending to be a burglar) is waving a (rubber) knife at you.

Simply shooting at targets at a range is good...but playing at combat could be better.

(I've learned a lot about people -- and myself! -- from Lazer Tag combat!)

Silas

Hrr. Been there, actually. Done impromptu drills, and used to play Lazer tag a lot. Paintball is good too.

Back when I was a Boy Scout, our Scoutmaster was a bit of a "survivalist" (Ex-Marine, etc.) and we played "stalking" games with a lot of variations (we started with Lazer Tag and eventually upgraded to "creeping death"-style assassination games.)

We introduced this game to the other troops at summer camp. Almost got thrown out when one of the troops started "killing" people who weren't part of the game.

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Moosedog
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Island Manta:
Moosedog, megaira is correct. I love living here. It's not that I expect to have someone attack me the minute I walk out of my house - I don't. I am, however, vigilant when I go out at night, or drive through certain areas of the island (day or night). It's not ALL that way. The good WAY outweighs the bad...it's just less safe here than where I used to live.

OK. Perhaps I took your description the wrong way. I had a picture of you living practically in a war zone.
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