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Author Topic: Guns - can the topic be discussed rationally?
tagurit
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Re: megaira's "List": So what if no one said those things in this thread? I never claimed they had, and the one I admitted to, wasn't in this thread either. So, I'll admit to a second one, that also wasn't in this thread. "they would not confront first, THEN shoot the intruder." There, admission complete. I referred to two items that were said in another thread, still not claiming they were said in this thread, remember. [Smile]
quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
Ok:
quote:
My initial gripe was not only about gun ownership, but the type of mentality that finds satisfaction in a person being killed, and further contends they would do the same, even posed in a way to that makes one (at least this one!) think they relish the thought, look forward to their own day of glory.
quote:
Being so in fear for your safety that you can't possibly consider not having a gun is another. I also see a big difference between owning a gun that you use for sport, and owning a gun with which you plan to kill someone.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Oualawouzou:
I cannot feel much pity for anybody getting killed while performing something illegal that made another citizen feel threatened for his or his family's immediate safety. *shrug*

How about glee? Can you feel exuberant?
quote:
The things that concern me today are 1) People expressing satisfaction that someone is killed and 2) The fear that drives people to keep guns specifically for the purpose of shooting other people, in their home.
quote:
I'm trying to come to grips with people who have as their first plan of action, should someone be, or they think someone is, in their house, to shoot first, ask questions later.
quote:
People being so afraid of whatever it is they think is out to get them, that they must keep deadly weapons in their home, particularly weapons whose only purpose is to kill people.
quote:
If they really want to protect themselves, why not, upon coming across an intruder, take a stance, aim your weapon, and shout "freeze!" or "drop your weapon!"
Now, you didn't specifically refer to any particular poster, but you did make these claims about those who keep firearms for home protection (which would include snopesters posting) but these claims were not based on anything anyone actually said, only your interpretation even after direct refutation.

pinqy

That's correct, pinqy. Many times throughout the thread I've attempted to explain that I'm not talking about gun owners in general, I'm talking about a certain group of gun owners. If I say that people that do a certain thing upset me, and you don't do the thing I'm talking about, in my mind it should be clear I'm not talking about you. However, running into it time and again in this thread, I explained that.

Some people (yes! in this thread, finally!) deny they keep guns because they're afraid. Well, a lot of people that don't keep guns for protection believe just the opposite. If you're not afraid, then why keep a gun for protection, is the logic that seems to prevail.

Other people in this thread have said they keep guns for protection, as an added measure of precaution. Extra precaution is dead bolts on your door. A security system is extra precaution. To me, and others of my persuasion, keeping a gun for protection is overkill.

Be that as it may, I endorse your right to own guns. I would hope the current trend of owning firearms for protection would decline, but I don't see that happening. Many gun owners advise others to get guns if they're uncomfortable in their homes. And so it goes.

Survey says! Last night I spoke on the phone with 2 friends (Berkeley CA and Ann Arbor MI), 3 cousins (Tecumseh and Ferndale MI and Windsor Ont) and exchanged emails with 5 other cousins (Stewart FL, Detroit MI, Warren MI, Richmond MI, Ferndale MI), all originally from the metropolitan Detroit area. None of them own guns for protection. One house has guns for hunting that are kept unloaded and locked away. All of them revealed they would never consider owning a gun for protection or shooting a human being. All of them feel safe in their homes/do not entertain thoughts of crimes being perpetuated against them. All of them believe that people keep firearms for protection because they are afraid.

I offer this because it was implied that I'm naive if I live in the suburbs of Detroit and believe I'm safe in my own home with the doors locked. There are a few of us, I guess.

I suppose I am a bit sensitive or delicate when it comes to hearing people say, somewhat nonchalantly, that they would kill people. I don't know the world you live in where guns are required to keep you safe at night. I really don't know if your world is all that unsafe, or if you only suppose that it's unsafe.

However, I never called anyone [participating] in this thread irresponsible, said anyone takes the responsibility of gun ownership lightly, or sleeps with a gun under their pillow.

In the "Foot in mouth" thread, a couple of people proposed that as soon as you spot an intruder in your house you should shoot to kill. I'll pull up the quotes if necessary. But, again, I never claimed that anyone said that in this thread and when I addressed the position of shooting to kill on sight, I was referring to people that plan to shoot to kill on sight. If that's not your plan, then why would you be offended?

I think a lot of the problem is that megaira labeled this thread the way she did, then pulled me into it, making it appear as if I'm anti-gun. I have stated over and over that I am not in favor of making guns illegal, that I support the 2nd amendment rights, but that I have a problem with a certain (small, I hope) group of gun owners. Of course, I don't understand keeping guns in the home for protection, but even so, I defend your right to have them.

Open to editing because I'm posting while seeking work. [Smile]

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tagurit
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quote:
Originally posted by megaira:
You said you didn't feel attacked...but then you say I blew you out of the water. Makes sense.

Of course it does. I was picturing it all cartoony like, complete with me floating down in my super dooper parachute, smiling and waving at you in the water. Taa-daa!

tag-terrific

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daisyslegs
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Tag, the only problem with your survey is that I can also ask friends and family and come up with the exact opposite answer.

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ali_marea
The "Was on Sale" Song


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I wouldn't exactly say that surveying friends and family (people who would be more apt to share opinions and positions with you) is an objective sample of opinions.

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tagurit
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Well, daisy, I wasn't trying to say that my friends/family are the only ones with opinions, or even that their opinions are the only valid ones. I was just offering a sampling to demonstrate that there are people out there who feel perfectly safe in their homes, even in the metro Detroit area, without resorting to keeping guns for protection. As I mentioned, it was implied that I must be naive to feel safe where I'm living.

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ali_marea
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Hey now, I take exception to that. I never implied you were naive. I straight-up said you were.

I still stand by that. Just because your family and friends feel the same doesn't make me believe it any less.

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Island Manta
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:

In the "Foot in mouth" thread, a couple of people proposed that as soon as you spot an intruder in your house you should shoot to kill. I'll pull up the quotes if necessary. But, again, I never claimed that anyone said that in this thread and when I addressed the position of shooting to kill on sight, I was referring to people that plan to shoot to kill on sight. If that's not your plan, then why would you be offended?


Open to editing because I'm posting while seeking work. [Smile]

Constantly making references to the other thread (which I missed), I went & read it - thanks for the link Tag. Your first comments were quite vehement (I'll post them if you don't remember) - and I"m sure that those comments influenced opinions that have been expressed in THIS thread. We don't post in a bubble. After all the referneces to the FIM thread, it's no wonder that comments made there were discussed here.

Agreeing to disagree and letting the matter rest seems to be the best course of action for all concerned. Mudslinging & personal attacks (however polite) will just get folks feelings hurt, even with the realtive civility that's occurred in the past 2 or 3 pages.

I gotta get ready for work - more after ...oh...10ish AST.

-k

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pinqy
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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Re: megaira's "List": So what if no one said those things in this thread? I never claimed they had, and the one I admitted to, wasn't in this thread either.

which makes it even more incomprehensible how you could reach your conlusions of joy in the death of others, paranoia etc without having stated any reasons to have reached those conclusions and continuing to make those assertions after repeated denials.

quote:
Many times throughout the thread I've attempted to explain that I'm not talking about gun owners in general, I'm talking about a certain group of gun owners.
Objection: misleading. The "certain group" you were discussing was those who keep firearms for protection. No other group of gun owners were discussed and the only gun owners representative here are those that do keep a gun for protection (exception: ali_marea). You were making unfounded blanket statements about ALL those who keep guns for protection.

quote:
Some people (yes! in this thread, finally!) deny they keep guns because they're afraid.
Some? ALL! Neither in this thread nor the other has anyone claimed they did keep guns out of fear. You made that up.

quote:
Well, a lot of people that don't keep guns for protection believe just the opposite. If you're not afraid, then why keep a gun for protection, is the logic that seems to prevail.
Your sole opinion does not count as "prevailing logic."

quote:
Other people in this thread have said they keep guns for protection, as an added measure of precaution. Extra precaution is dead bolts on your door. A security system is extra precaution. To me, and others of my persuasion, keeping a gun for protection is overkill.
So what? Others think it is just the right amount of kill. How on earth does an extra deadbolt stop someone already in your house because they came through the window? How is spending thousands of dollars on a complex security system and installing extra locks not paranoid but buying a pistol for a couple hundred dollars (and used additionally for pleasure shooting) is? Less money and effort = greater concern? odd reasoning.


quote:
I suppose I am a bit sensitive or delicate when it comes to hearing people say, somewhat nonchalantly, that they would kill people.
Yet you yourself nonchalantly said you'd severely beat someone.

quote:
I don't know the world you live in where guns are required to keep you safe at night.
Why do you think anyone believes that they require a gun to keep themselves state? Where in the nine hells did you reach that conclusion? Stop inserting your bias and opinion as other people's thoughts. It's getting old.

quote:
But, again, I never claimed that anyone said that in this thread and when I addressed the position of shooting to kill on sight, I was referring to people that plan to shoot to kill on sight. If that's not your plan, then why would you be offended?
Because you were presenting it as the norm and as the mentality of gun owners who keep guns for protection. Because even after people in this thread stated that yes identification was necessary, even after gun owners themselves reprimanded the single "shoot first" statement, you continued to characterize gun owners as wanting to shoot first.

pinqy

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tagurit
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Manta, since I posted in reference to the FIM thread, myself, I believe I'm aware of its existence and content. You're right that we don't post in a bubble. None of us.
quote:
Agreeing to disagree and letting the matter rest seems to be the best course of action for all concerned.
[lol] Now she tells us!

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megaira
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eggnog latte, you shall be a triple shot.

quote:
Re: megaira's "List": So what if no one said those things in this thread? I never claimed they had, and the one I admitted to, wasn't in this thread either.
LOL such crap!

Let's recap!

You started out in the other thread with a froth at the mouth rant about people being ready to kill over their possessions and that it was expressed the guy "deserved" to die.

Then... well, I'll just quote you:

quote:
Because everyday people are breaking into your house to rape you, or your wife, or to kidnap or dismember your children. You people are gun-happy sick puppies, I'll tell you.

I'm ashamed to be associated with you. I'm ashamed you live in my country. Go ahead, tell the world what a bunch of trigger-happy losers we have living in the US. Instead of being so proud that you own a gun and you're not afraid to use it *on another person!* you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. But, you should be ashamed moreso because you're so damn scared. If you weren't living in fear, then why would you find it necessary to have a gun and be ready to shoot?

Just who I want to live next door to, a bunch of damn paranoids with guns! That's just great.

tag guns don't kill people....people kill people... That's right! Bingo! urit

This was followed with a tit for tat with John, and you capping (haha capping) it off with:

"How long you had those guns and never got to shoot anyone? You know you want to...."

At which point, I came in and said you had your head up your ass, and took a couple potshots.

Sarcastic snarkage ensued in which you claimed to be amused and implied nefarious things about my charecter, mainly that I'm into "humiliating" people.

That thread, of course, got closed and a new one was started over here about guns, in which I foooolishly used your name in the first post, and you of course turned up to "defend your honor" and backpedal all over the place about how you only really get upset over this, that, the other thing -all things that were proven to be groundless or bullshit assumptions on your part.

At that point, you could have acknowledged your error, made your apologies (to them, not me), and this would have set a new tone for further discussion in the thread. But this did not happen, and so, of course, set a tone regarding what you've been saying here in this thread, currently.

From that point on, it's been a series of reiterating the same stale arguements, oh, and nonsense about lambasting someone "only" under X circumstances -which is bullshit, and has been proven bullshit more than once already.

I point out the lambasting excuse is bullshit, then go on to point out point out, as well, that the arguements (against guns for self protection) I see being reiterated are stale and non applicable to the conversation because no one has *said/admitted*any of these things that you were trying to use as your base as what you get upset/worry about. You come back and say that you never said or implied those things. I provided quotes out the wazoo of where you did indeed imply those things.

Backpedal city, and I'm apparantly a liar on top of it all. Tsk, now that's naughty.


Oh boy, and there's more.
quote:
Many times throughout the thread I've attempted to explain that I'm not talking about gun owners in general, I'm talking about a certain group of gun owners.
Yes, and that came across as poor backpedalling because:
a. you continually went back to the "expressing satisfaction" problem, after it had been resolved, therefore setting the tone that you had not, indeed, moved on or acknowledged error there
b. evidence throughout 7 pages of thread had suggested these were not people you were talking to, and therefore arguements presented to them were not valid, because they are not going to be able to answer your questions: not being of the group you are saying you have a problem with.

quote:
If I say that people that do a certain thing upset me, and you don't do the thing I'm talking about, in my mind it should be clear I'm not talking about you.
This is weak backpedalling, again. You failed to clear up the problems of your initial rant sessions, which, did indeed generalize every and all involved. So now, when you say "oh, not YOU people" it appears you're trying to narrow it down and say "no no, I wasn't talking about YOU fine folks, I was talking about those hooligans out there" - but, if that's the case, why are you debating those issues here? Clearly no one here is one of those hooligans, how can they give you the answers you want if they're not them?


quote:
Some people (yes! in this thread, finally!) deny they keep guns because they're afraid.
Finally? What, like you gave anyone a chance to explain or discuss why or how they keep guns in the other thread? Or are you saying "finally, we get to discussing what's going on in this thread?" which is also not really sensical, since, much of what we're discussing *has* been going on in this thread, bar your initial rants.

quote:
Well, a lot of people that don't keep guns for protection believe just the opposite.
No, so far, according to these threads, you feel this is the case. I haven't seen anyone else who doesn't own a gun saying they think others own guns out of fear, just you. For that matter, the handgun in our house is owned by my husband. I don't touch it, or plan to use it for my own self protection and I do not feel this way about why he has it at all.

quote:
If you're not afraid, then why keep a gun for protection, is the logic that seems to prevail.
Logic that seems to prevail to you that is, which may not be anyone else's logic.

quote:
Other people in this thread have said they keep guns for protection, as an added measure of precaution. Extra precaution is dead bolts on your door. A security system is extra precaution.
In your opinion.

quote:
To me, and others of my persuasion, keeping a gun for protection is overkill.
And, that is simply a difference of opinion that you'll have to live with.


quote:
Be that as it may, I endorse your right to own guns. I would hope the current trend of owning firearms for protection would decline, but I don't see that happening.
Is this the same person?
quote:
You people are gun-happy sick puppies, I'll tell you.

I'm ashamed to be associated with you. I'm ashamed you live in my country. Go ahead, tell the world what a bunch of trigger-happy losers we have living in the US. Instead of being so proud that you own a gun and you're not afraid to use it *on another person!* you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. But, you should be ashamed moreso because you're so damn scared. If you weren't living in fear, then why would you find it necessary to have a gun and be ready to shoot?

Just who I want to live next door to, a bunch of damn paranoids with guns! That's just great.

(I'm sorry, I just... it's like a SNL skit you just have to keep playing)

quote:

Many gun owners advise others to get guns if they're uncomfortable in their homes. And so it goes.

Oh look! Another assumption. I've never, ever heard my husband or any of the gun owners I know suggest or advise someone else to get a gun.

quote:
Survey says! Last night I spoke on the phone with [snip][quote]

You talked to 5 people and suddenly what? You have the difinitive answer to the problem of using guns for self protection?

[quote]All of them revealed they would never consider owning a gun for protection or shooting a human being. All of them feel safe in their homes/do not entertain thoughts of crimes being perpetuated against them. All of them believe that people keep firearms for protection because they are afraid.

so...what? Come out to Boulder, you'll find a whole city of people that agrees with you. So what? That doesn't make either side more right, or more wrong, than the other.

quote:

I offer this because it was implied that I'm naive if I live in the suburbs of Detroit and believe I'm safe in my own home with the doors locked. There are a few of us, I guess.

yep, guess there are.


quote:
I suppose I am a bit sensitive or delicate when it comes to hearing people say, somewhat nonchalantly, that they would kill people.
Delicate is not the word that comes to mind. And now we further backpedal to say no no, the issue isn't about this this and that, what it really is about NOW is that you've all said you might take a life trying to protect yourself and life is sacred.

(note: it will just come down to "life is sacred," later, when you're clinging to that last shred of excuse as to why you had a hissy fit in the first thread)

quote:
I don't know the world you live in where guns are required to keep you safe at night. I really don't know if your world is all that unsafe, or if you only suppose that it's unsafe.
No one said they were required, either.

quote:
However, I never called anyone [participating] in this thread irresponsible, said anyone takes the responsibility of gun ownership lightly, or sleeps with a gun under their pillow.
Nope, you implied it. It was one of your qualifiers, remember? you said: "Only one of these statements is indicative of anything I said or implied."

But, if it makes you feel better, I was just saying those arguements were not valid and had been recirculating too long.

quote:
In the "Foot in mouth" thread, a couple of people proposed that as soon as you spot an intruder in your house you should shoot to kill.
No, they did not. The only thing that comes close to it is Rainmom's:

"If someone is carrying a weapon, breaking into someone's home, you have to assume they mean to do you harm.

I agree killing someone over possessions is wrong. If the guy was climbing out the window with a handfull of my stuff, I am not going to kill him, If he is climbing IN the window with a weapon and I see him first...he is dead."

If he is climbing in the window *with a weapon.*

Of course, we'll go back to the "well, how do you know he's climbing in the window with a weapon to hurt you?" nonsense.

quote:
But, again, I never claimed that anyone said that in this thread and when I addressed the position of shooting to kill on sight, I was referring to people that plan to shoot to kill on sight. If that's not your plan, then why would you be offended?
I'm not sure I said it was offensive...tiresome, yes - my point was that the arguements were worn out and tired, as they'd been resolved already. You said "i nevah" I said "yeah y'did"

quote:
I think a lot of the problem is that megaira labeled this thread the way she did, then pulled me into it, making it appear as if I'm anti-gun.
hee! Yes, the problem all started with me, it's all meg. Bad meg, for shame!

quote:
I have stated over and over that I am not in favor of making guns illegal, that I support the 2nd amendment rights, but that I have a problem with a certain (small, I hope) group of gun owners. Of course, I don't understand keeping guns in the home for protection, but even so, I defend your right to have them.
hehe, ok, do I need to requote you...again?


quote:
Of course it does. I was picturing it all cartoony like, complete with me floating down in my super dooper parachute, smiling and waving at you in the water. Taa-daa!

Well, I agree, Loony Tunes does come to mind.
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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Re: megaira's "List": So what if no one said those things in this thread? I never claimed they had, and the one I admitted to, wasn't in this thread either.

which makes it even more incomprehensible how you could reach your conlusions of joy in the death of others, paranoia etc without having stated any reasons to have reached those conclusions and continuing to make those assertions after repeated denials.
Did you read the OP in the Foot in Mouth thread? Now, when someone first sets it up by telling you that if you enter their house armed, you will be killed, then follows by repeated statements that they would've shot the kid too, I don't find my conclusion that there was some satisfaction involved for that poster, in the killing of that young man.

As for the paranoia, I do believe that many people that do not own guns for protection, conclude that those that do, do so out of fear. I think it was quite clear throughout that I'm of the opinion, and no one convinced me otherwise, that people that resort to keeping guns solely for protection, do so out of fear. It's my opinion. I don't have to provide a path to any conclusion. To me it's a logical conclusion. I wouldn't set a rat trap if there were no signs of rats. I wouldn't have a device for killing a foe, if there were no reason for it.

quote:
quote:
Many times throughout the thread I've attempted to explain that I'm not talking about gun owners in general, I'm talking about a certain group of gun owners.

Objection: misleading. The "certain group" you were discussing was those who keep firearms for protection. No other group of gun owners were discussed and the only gun owners representative here are those that do keep a gun for protection (exception: ali_marea). You were making unfounded blanket statements about ALL those who keep guns for protection.
There were many areas I discussed. I discussed gun owners in general. I discussed gun owners that own only handguns/assault rifles, I discussed gun owners that only keep guns for protection. I even talked about certain subsets within, such as those exhibited in the OP of the FIM thread, which I designated as gun owners of a certain mentality, IIRC. Like I said, if you're not exhibiting behavior that I'm talking about, pinqy... :shrug:
quote:
quote:
Some people (yes! in this thread, finally!) deny they keep guns because they're afraid.

Some? ALL! Neither in this thread nor the other has anyone claimed they did keep guns out of fear. You made that up.
ALL people in this thread deny they keep guns because they're afraid!

Though in fairness, pinqy, not all gun owners responded. - Ouch! - Ok, ok....
quote:
quote:
Well, a lot of people that don't keep guns for protection believe just the opposite. If you're not afraid, then why keep a gun for protection, is the logic that seems to prevail.

Your sole opinion does not count as "prevailing logic."
It prevails among those that don't keep guns for protection that I have talked to. I never said it prevails for all people regardless of their stance on guns.
quote:
quote:
Other people in this thread have said they keep guns for protection, as an added measure of precaution. Extra precaution is dead bolts on your door. A security system is extra precaution. To me, and others of my persuasion, keeping a gun for protection is overkill.

So what? Others think it is just the right amount of kill. How on earth does an extra deadbolt stop someone already in your house because they came through the window? How is spending thousands of dollars on a complex security system and installing extra locks not paranoid but buying a pistol for a couple hundred dollars (and used additionally for pleasure shooting) is? Less money and effort = greater concern? odd reasoning.
Quick answer? Security systems don't kill! That's the part that seems to keep being left out when referring to reasonable precautions. Now, if you set up a security system that maims and kills....
quote:
quote:
I suppose I am a bit sensitive or delicate when it comes to hearing people say, somewhat nonchalantly, that they would kill people.

Yet you yourself nonchalantly said you'd severely beat someone.
I never did. You bring that quote up right now, Mister! Severely beat someone? Not a chance in hell!
quote:
quote:
I don't know the world you live in where guns are required to keep you safe at night.

Why do you think anyone believes that they require a gun to keep themselves state? Where in the nine hells did you reach that conclusion? Stop inserting your bias and opinion as other people's thoughts. It's getting old.
Well, there must be a reason people keep guns for protection. If it's not to make them feel safe, then what? Oh, intead of a security system... My apologies.
quote:
quote:
But, again, I never claimed that anyone said that in this thread and when I addressed the position of shooting to kill on sight, I was referring to people that plan to shoot to kill on sight. If that's not your plan, then why would you be offended?

Because you were presenting it as the norm and as the mentality of gun owners who keep guns for protection. Because even after people in this thread stated that yes identification was necessary, even after gun owners themselves reprimanded the single "shoot first" statement, you continued to characterize gun owners as wanting to shoot first.
pinqy, there are page after page of my posts. I explicitely stated, several times, that what I have a problem with is a certain mentality. I referred to a certain group of gun owners, etc. Now, if you're throwing a damn blue ball and I take exception to people throwing red balls, then I'm not addressing all people throwing balls, ok? I saw people denying what I was saying. I didn't take the time to tell each one of those people individually that "I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU!" But, I did bring it up what I thought was a fair amount of times.

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Sorry Manta...

I'm still waiting, though, on Tag's explanation of how I am a liar.

I mean, it stands to reason that one shouldn't make these claims -particularily in such an environment -without being prepared to back them up.

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by ali_marea:
Hey now, I take exception to that. I never implied you were naive. I straight-up said you were.

I still stand by that. Just because your family and friends feel the same doesn't make me believe it any less.

Pardon me? You think we're naive for feeling safe in our homes? What do you feel we should be feeling in our homes? You live in D.C. How do you feel in your home?

Right, you did flat out say it. I was trying not to sound accusatory. [Smile]

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ali_marea
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Tag, your opinion that the earth is purple, polka dotted with yellow spots could be a deep-felt believe that you've held all your life. That won't make it a fact. Just because you have an opinion that gun owners (the ones who keep them for self-defense) have them out of fear does not make it a fact.

What I don't understand is why, on a message board where people try to dispell half-truths, non-truths, and other miscellaneous BS-laden stories, you would expect us not to call you on that. Gun owners (who use them for protection and who don't use them for protection) are flat-out telling you that it isn't true. They are telling you that you are wrong. They do not own the gun out of fear. So how can you still say you believe they do?

Are you saying that everyone here who owns a gun is so far deluded that they cannot judge for themselves why they own their weapons? Are you saying that you don't trust anyone with a weapon to be honest as to their reason why? What is your reasoning behind refusing to accept everyone's word that they do not own a gun out of fear?

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Ewok
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
Now, if you're throwing a damn blue ball and I take exception to people throwing red balls, then I'm not addressing all people throwing balls, ok?

People don't throw red balls, strawmen throw red balls.
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megaira
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Oh come on now, Tag, don't keep me waiting on this liar claim.
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ali_marea
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
quote:
Originally posted by ali_marea:
Hey now, I take exception to that. I never implied you were naive. I straight-up said you were.

I still stand by that. Just because your family and friends feel the same doesn't make me believe it any less.

Pardon me? You think we're naive for feeling safe in our homes? What do you feel we should be feeling in our homes? You live in D.C. How do you feel in your home?

Right, you did flat out say it. I was trying not to sound accusatory. [Smile]

Ack, no not for feeling safe in your own homes. I should have probably worded that better. Thought about it. Didn't do anything about it. My fault.

Ok, what I mean is I think it's naive to think that, in the suburbs of Detroit, you are safe just because you don't know violent people. (I might not even be wording this right. I guess I just mean to say it's not all rosy, regardless of where you live. It's a little worse if you live close to big cities. Crimes are frequently random. You have no control over that. To think you do just because you don't hang out with "bad people" is, IMO, naive.)

As far as how safe I feel? I dunno. I feel about as safe as anybody else who lives in the city. I don't live in a high crime neighborhood, but there are crimes that happen here. I think my chances are just about the same as everyone else for getting robbed or attacked.

ETA: I mean I feel my chances are about the same as everyone else who lives in my area. Watching the news, it seems there's almost more violence in the 'burbs. In the boonies I'm not seeing much of a violence problem. So I guess it's still fairly safe to live in cow-country *grin*

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28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. That is when the world will end.

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Prussian Blue
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by ali_marea:
Are you saying that everyone here who owns a gun is so far deluded that they cannot judge for themselves why they own their weapons?

Well there's a new album out called "500,000,000 million Bon Jovi fans can't be wrong". I looked at it and thought "er... yes they can!".

It wouldn't be the first time large groups of people have been deluded about something.

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deerslayer
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Sorry about getting into this fracas so late, but I just found it. Yes, I own both handguns, and rifles. I live in the country on a wooded lot with no neighbors in an upscale home. I have no children at home, and keep all guns loaded. Although not a hi crime area, crime is steadily going rural because the perps can get in, and out, without anybody seeing them.
Saying that, I have lived thru a home invasion. Two men wearing masks just burst thru our front door, and held my wife and I at gunpoint. At that same time, my son, and two carloads of his friends came up the drive preparing for an evening swim and party at the pool. The crooks ran out the back door and disappeared into the woods. Police were called, but they were never found.
Where were my guns? all safe and secure in gunsafes [Mad]
Now, with an outside intruder alert system, and steel doors It will be a little harder to get inside my home, and if they do come in thru the windows, or however, I will shoot first.... If there are more than one, I'll shoot them all, and let God sort em out!
God forbid that none of you have to go thru this situation, because in that 2 minutes we had those guns pressed into our heads, I was never in more fear of losing my life, and I am a combat veteran of vietnam. My fear was that there was absolutly nothing I could do if they wanted to rape my wife right in front of me, or whatever.

I can guarentee that anybody that is anti-gun would have change of heart after living thru that.

I now have a concealed carry permit, and keep a carry guy with me at all times.

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Deerslayer,

Would it have been better if they'd dragged your wife out of your sight and raped her?

I know, it's a munchkin, but there's an underlying attitude there that bugs me, to say the least...

Not to mention that it's hard for me to imagine why having a gun pressed to my head would make me suddenly fonder of them. Shrug.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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ali, there is proof, after all, that the earth is not polka dotted. But, holding an opinion does not make a thing fact, either.

I don't know how people can go from, they got a gun for protection for peace of mind, or as an extra precaution, without considering there must be fear. The conclusion I draw, which is my opinion, and not fact, is that these people must be fearful. I'm sorry. Owning a gun for protection is extreme, in my opinion (boy, I'm going to get tired of typing that!) so I have to deduce there is fear. I'm not seeing anything to the contrary. Why else would people keep a deadly weapon for protection? You know, people keep saying they keep it for protection, but in the next breath they say they have no fear. If you need protection, to me, it indicates fear. If you need protection in the form of a deadly weapon, it indicates a deep fear.

I'm still ready to believe I'm wrong, but so far no one has given me a reason to believe they're not fearful.

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Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
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deerslayer
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Deerslayer,

Would it have been better if they'd dragged your wife out of your sight and raped her?


Not to mention that it's hard for me to imagine why having a gun pressed to my head would make me suddenly fonder of them. Shrug.

[Confused] [Confused]
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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Still waiting on that liar thing, Tag.
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Morrigan
Happy Holly Days


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I've been reading this thread all the way through...time for me to respond.

I live with my parents, and yes, we have a gun in the house. It's a shotgun. It's also locked in my parent's closet.

I have a compound bow in my room that I could get to quicker than I could the gun.

But, if an intruder broke in, I would know in advance. Hell, I'd probably know the minute they tried to get in, as I have 3 dogs that stay inside, and 3 that stay outside at night.

I know how to use both the gun & bow, and I'm a good shot with both. Went through hunter's training when I was 14. Fired a gun just about every year. Mostly at squirrels that got on the bird feeders, though. Never at a person.

In roughly a year, though, I'll be going through extensive training. (The police academy, here I come!)

Morrigan

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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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We're still beating this horse? Thought we had killed it (pun intended).

OK, let's pause here. The basic situation is I made a statement that Tag took offence to based on her own opinions and having absolutely no information or understanding as to why I would say this and to what extent I would need to be pushed before I did do as I said I would.

Tag over reacted a bit with her heart felt opinion about a subject which she is unfamiliar with and knows nothing about, and admittedly does not understand and I was quickly reduced to a paranoid, trigger happy, sick puppy that should be ashamed of myself. And if that were not enough and I did not have the decency to be ashamed, she was ashamed to be associated with me and ashamed that I live in this country.

Then the other people on this board that actually do know something about the subject step in and try to dispell the assumptions and ill-informed accusations based solely on a belief coming from someone that, wait for it...

KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT BEING A GUN OWNER!.

And all hell breaks loose, people in the know try to help you understand you are under a misconception. But you refuse to believe their informed words and cling to your opinion.

I just gotta ask: What the hell are you doing on Snopes!?!?

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~tough as nails yet nice as pie~
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
daisys does Myspace

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Deerslayer:
I'm questioning why your concern about your wife's posible rape contained the phrase "right in front of me." To me that rather suggests that the potential rape is viewed as having more of an impact on you than on your wife. Hence my question.

And part two (presumably two confused faces indicates two causes for confusion): I'm responding to "I can guarentee (sic) that anybody that is anti-gun would have change of heart (sic) after living thru that." Isn't that rather like saying having a razor held to your throat would guarantee that someone who previously didn't like razors would now change his or her mind? That is what is hard for me to imagine.

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Daisy:
quote:
I just gotta ask: What the hell are you doing on Snopes!?!?
Hanging around embarassing people and liars, apparantly.
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tagurit
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quote:
Originally posted by deerslayer:
My fear was that there was absolutly nothing I could do if they wanted to rape my wife right in front of me, or whatever.

Finally! An honest man.... To whom do I make the check out to?

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
quote:
Originally posted by deerslayer:
My fear was that there was absolutly nothing I could do if they wanted to rape my wife right in front of me, or whatever.

Finally! An honest man.... To whom do I make the check out to?
You missed the point completely. Becuase he is now aware the world is not as innocent as you do he now has guns.

If you mean the word fear, then you're grasping at straws. While you have a gun pointed at you you can fear. I believe Deerslayer now feels the word "confident".

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~tough as nails yet nice as pie~
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
daisys does Myspace

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Finally! An honest man.... To whom do I make the check out to?

So, everyone else is a liar (oops, it's not just me, how embarassingly narcissistic I was just now)...

and, what is he apparantly being honest about that no one else was? That, in the actual situation, when someone put a gun against his head he was afraid? That somehow validates your belief that gun owners are afraid? He was a gun owner before that...and the changes he's made now is that he a. carries one on his person at all times (which was not the basis of the other arguement) rather than just keeping one in his house. I'd say he had good solid evidence, rather than "paranoia," that he needed one.

Still waiting on the liar thing.

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tagurit
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meg seems to think I should go through her miles of abusive posts to show her where her lies, lie. [Smile] They don't warrant more than a cursory glance from me. And so, I withdraw my accusation that she lied about me.

tag the slider scroll is your friend... urit

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by daisyslegs and snowballs:
quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
quote:
Originally posted by deerslayer:
My fear was that there was absolutly nothing I could do if they wanted to rape my wife right in front of me, or whatever.

Finally! An honest man.... To whom do I make the check out to?
You missed the point completely. Becuase he is now aware the world is not as innocent as you do he now has guns.

If you mean the word fear, then you're grasping at straws. While you have a gun pointed at you you can fear. I believe Deerslayer now feels the word "confident".

It was a joke! You don't see the humor in it? Fine, I'll refund your money.

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AAMAH

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daisyslegs
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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only if you conceed that I am not a pathetic paranoid trigger happy sicck puppy that you are ashamed to be associated with... [Big Grin]

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For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and sometimes a scar.
"and don't threaten anyone with your pants today!" - Frog_Feathers
daisys does Myspace

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megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
[QB] meg seems to think I should go through her miles of abusive posts to show her where her lies, lie. [Smile] They don't warrant more than a cursory glance from me. And so, I withdraw my accusation that she lied about me.

Gee, don't you think, when someone makes the accusation on a message board that you lie -on the internet, where all you have, really, is your spoken word to validate you -that they should be prepared to back it up?

You say you withdraw it, but yet, you're still making the accusation in this post, Tag.

And, I'm waiting.

My posts are apparantly abusive, yet in yours, other than your original vitriolic outburst, which makes this whole thing beautifully ironic, you have implied that amoung other things, I lie, tell half truths (um, that's lying), and play "humiliation games."

You demand that others back up their claims, but squirm out with passive aggressive nonsense when held to the point that you should back up your own.


Tsk. You are *so* naughty.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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Megaira: I don't know if you actually lied, but you did, more than once, generalize things that Tagurit said about *some* gun owners as if she had said the same things about *all* gun owners.

Deerslayer: Holy Hannah! I'm glad that story ended well; that must have been just about the worst experience anyone can suffer.

I think I see the point that Chloe wanted to make, but since you were talking about *your* feelings, what you said was valid. I'm sure your wife also felt sick with fear during the event.

There is, in our society, an unspoken (sexist?) assumption that the man is supposed to protect the woman. Your telling of the event shows that. You felt bad because you couldn't protect your family; there is nothing wrong with that.

(I'm sure there are lots of families in which the wife is the one who is the protector and who would feel anguish at her failure to protect her family, while the husband is the one who depends on her for protection. In the U.S., this is probably a small minority of married couples.)

And, yes, an experience like that would probably change my mind -- at an emotional level -- about a lot of things. Guns, the death penalty, the 8th Amendment, humanity itself. It would go a long way toward ruining my life.

But what I think we're hoping for in this thread (but not necessarily getting) is the question of our views on guns and self-defense on a non-emotional level of thinking.

The key question to the gun-control issue is this: do guns make us safer *overall*? It's hard to argue that having a gun makes you safer in the immediate sense, at least from some kinds of attacks. (The guys who attacked you might still have gotten the drop on you, even if you'd had your gun in a belt holster. I've only been mugged once...but it was by four guys, and I don't think a gun would have done me any good at all.)

But do guns make *us* safer, as a society, overall? Does the "shared risk" go down, or up? Is having a gun in the house the best *strategic* approach to the problem of crime, even if it is a good *tactical* approach? (Which, in fact, I kinda find myself doubting...)

Silas

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